In my youth, I wholly embraced the fledgling video-game industry; and my support was from the heart!

Now that I have been legally denied the only thing that I ever asked for from this industry...namely, the right to purchase a working copy of a game for my own personal use...I am understandably unhappy about the whole DRM junk that is the reality of today's video-game industry. This was certainly not part of my vision for the industry.

I may have been legally ordered by the courts to bend over for the video-game industry; but I simply refuse to spread my cheeks. I.E. boycott on!

I would still like to stress that I did and still do wish the developers well! Just don't count on any support from my heart because I don't have any more to give. I would have never supported this industry if I saw this comming.

@ Albaron

I have been searching for gameplay videos on youtube and have already watched all that were posted.

@ Chowguy

Yes, you said it very well...It looks like the video-game industry has put the bag on me...Kudos.

There is lots of whining here that I don't understand, but one thing is really important to me:

Quoted from Albaron:

And one of my biggest concerns: After two or three years the planned server will not run, because it is not profitable anymore. Then the game reaches its end. For me this way looks a bit 'intended', if you know what I mean. Shadow Magic is played since 10 years now and maybe for another 10 or even more. I'm afraid AoW3 will be dead after 3 years latest. Hopefully I will be wrong.

I fully agree with this, there should be multiplayer modes that are independent from the services provided by the game developers/publishers, like the online and PBEM modes in AoW1-2. While I don't believe that Steam ceases to exist in foreseeable future, which would make it impossible to play Steam games, it's possible that AoW3 multiplayer servers will go down... One solution might be releasing software that allows the players to run their own servers - it would be something like the "pitboss" servers for Civilization 4 & 5. Another solution is recreating aforementioned PBEM and IP-based online modes in AoW3.

And one of my biggest concerns: After two or three years the planned server will not run, because it is not profitable anymore. Then the game reaches its end.

Also agreed, and intended or not, it's not like it hasn't happened before. (See my post #16 in this thread.)

Even if the "must be online to start" restriction only applies to network multi-player games it seems a severe limit. If it applies to single-player, hotseat, or PBEM games as well I see it as a real deal breaker. The only way such a thing could be expected to remain profitable for a niche game once the initial sales run is over is a pay-per-play system and you know where I think that would lead.

@ PawelS

Truth be told, you would owe me a lot if you are a true fan of video games.

I was betrayed by this industry plain and simple. And, unless an industry insider with a conscience comes forward to support me, (highly unlikely), you will not likely ever understand my point of view.

Until then, I am quite content to be labeled a mal-content and a whiner by you and others...but I have my reasons!

@ The Harlequin

Quoted from The Harlequin:

Well. For me it's the other way around. If it wasn't for digital stores like Steam, I wouldn't be able to play most games.

Well, if it wasn't for me, then Steam wouldn't even have most games they are selling to begin with!

Actually, you wouldn't be able to be playing most games without me!

[This message has been edited by flyguy (edited 02-24-2014 @ 10:41 PM).]

@flyguy

Quoted from CoC:

Do not post negative posts and discussions that are repeated over and over and over with no other purpose than to disrupt conversation. If you feel the need to say something, say it once and then move on.

Let me make myself very clear. I don't CARE what your reasons are. This is neither a fanboi site, nor a basher site, and it is certainly not an official site. We have no skin in this, and it is not the place to mount a soapbox.

@all

That goes for the rest of you too. Direct your comments to what is or isn't there, and not to who does or doesn't like it.

This page confirms that AoW3 sold at gog.com will be DRM free.

And just pre-ordered it on gog

Hoping to see PBEM added later, never really played it myself, but always just loved the idea.

Curious about a few other things, but still looks like a game I want to try.

This morning I was really excited to learn that we're able to pre-order the game and then the excitement became a shock to realize that PBEM is not packed at the same time. Yeap! It's a big shock for me on a personal level!

I understand it's a business decision and that PBEM crowd does not count much of the game's revenue. The dev could have their reasons with logic that most people would try Single mod with Campagin and stuff before they think about multiplayer. And it's probably ok to keep people (like me) who would like to jump directly into multiplayer (PBEM for me) to try out new things together with their friends.

BUT like Albaron and many other have said and I'd reiterate.. if not for the PBEM community, games like Age of Wonders series wouldn't last for more than 3-4 year. Especially in AOW3's case, if it wasn't for the activities of the PBEM crowd, would Triump Studio be able to have the inspiration, the courage OR the fund to develop AOW3? I mean it's been more than 10 years since Aow:SM was released! It was the constant flow of hope, of creativity and of suggestions from this community for AOW3 that bring AOW3's birth. I feel that they should owe us that much to keep existing multiplayer options (with PBEM and LAN) available.

I think many of TS's decisions so far have been influenced by deadline and financial constraints. From the decision to remove certain races only to add them as DLC later to the decisions of leaving PBEM out just like that. Even the decision regarding DRM and physical copies too. I agree with flyguy's too on what the majority of the game industry does today in general and what TS does with their AOW3 release in particular. While it's true that the digital copies will remove barriers of countries and borders... but the way Steam and many others impose on gamers is really rude. It's good to hear from Pawel that GOG will offer DRM free release of the game though. But personally, even when the boxed version of the game will certainly not be available in my country, I still prefer to get a physical copy by one way or another. You may laugh but I stil love the feeling of ripping off the plastic wrap and inserting the disc into the drive.

It's been a while since I rant like this..

Edit: It's not nice of TS to not specify the available multiplayer modes on Steam or GOG. To be honest, I almost jumped at GOG pre-order before I saw a comment that PBEM is not packed with the release. Somehow I almost feel tricked, because who would have the time to keep up with all conversations on the forums?

[This message has been edited by naecO (edited 02-26-2014 @ 02:04 AM).]

Got the deluxe version. Not worried about any of this.
Flyguy: thanks for all your efforts, and thanks to everyone who had any part in making this great game.
Forget your Regrets!

@ the whole community

I'm not quite sure if it is safe for me to post in this thread again because it seems to me that ChowGuy has used a double standard aimed towards me while moderating in the past. I know that Chowguy later said it was an oversite...

But several years ago I was reading some thread here that was discussing the Master of Magic game and someone posted a link to theundegdogs website. Well, several days later, I re-posted that link in another thread and I was reprimanded about COC violation and given a warning and he removed the link.

So it's ok to post a link to that website unless you happen to be me?

I have always given ChowGuy the benefit of the doubt; but after this I definitely still have to wonder about it.

@ ffbj

Thank you extremely for the support! I really needed to hear that from somebody. God bless you!

I didn't actually have anything to do with AOW3; but I assure you that the first three AOW titles would not exist without my small but crucial role.

Every bit of the actual gruntwork for the development of the AOW series was done by Triumph without any further imput from me; and they did a marvelous job overall.

I even played a tiny part in the development of Overlord.

I have similar stories all over the video-game industry involving practically all of the well known players.

Also, I am 'an industry kingpin' in the music business and have done melody and lyrics for hundreds of widely known artists.

I am also widely involved in the entertainment industry mostly in a peripheral role these days.

I could best be described as a charitable person because I never seek personal gain or monetary compensation for my services. I have lived under sub-poverty conditions my entire life. My volunteer work in all of these fields has always come from my own heart and from my passion.

RE: The anti-DRM tirate.

I am not stupid!

I know the the right thing (and the smart thing) to do would be to forgive the industry for backstabbing me over this DRM issue. However, I want to know what the other side gets out of this whole hater culture.

Since the only way that I ever learn anything is through personal experience...

I am going to try to pull a TruePurple and hold on to my hatred until I die...no matter what others think!

That being said...

Good luck once again to Triumph.

I love most of this community just like I love most of my recording stars and entertainment stars...

Even though there are some people in every group (haters) that I absolutely regret ever having met. But, I guess that is life isn't it.

Cheers!

hehe TruePurple

I think about TruePurple a lot. Maybe he'll reappear, as so many of the old-timers seem to be showing their faces again recently...

@ the whole world

Just like my last post (post #60), which I naturally thought I had perfectly crafted, practically all of my work at practically anything I do or ever have done usually has some flaws in it somewhere. I in fact expect them to happen and I carefully look for mistakes that I have made before making every post. Yet I continuously seem to be finding myself editing one of my posts.

Well as usual, since I have made post #60, I have already noticed several things wrong with it that I would like to edit. Dang it!! I just can't catch a break!

I find it to be simply dreadful for me to have to edit even one of my own posts. (It just makes me come off as looking less than professional).

Since I hate having to do edits, let me just do it from here...

Firstly (two obvious errors)

(1) spelling error...change tirate to tirade
(2) typo...delete the extra word the from two lines below the first edit

Secondly, (also an obvious thing)

I probably should give ChowGuy a good God bless you for not deleting my post or banning me.

I saw that he was online last night at around 2:00am and I was kind of expecting to have my post get deleted and maybe even to be banned. I was up all night and only got a couple of hours rest at mid morning.

Thirdly, (It's just so obvious)

It is just plain wrong to publicly belittle another person!!! I owe TruePurple and ChowGuy another apology!!!

I am going to have so much fun watching youtube videos of people playing this game!

Cheers!!

Listen up:

I see a lot of misinformation, fear, uncertainty and doubt here that is for the most part completely unwarranted. It is not a pleasant sight.

Because the NDA has been relaxed, and because Triumph also asked the beta testers to talk about the game outside the official forums, let's do a recap of what is known of the multiplayer side, and add a few bits that to my knowledge have not been discussed anywhere before:

* MP supports hotseat, online MP and LAN
* Hotseat has no online requirement (happens on one copy, so no issues)
* LAN requires online connection in the setup phase, after which the online connection is not needed, more in a bit
* online multiplayer requires an active internet connection (duh)

Some more facts:
* Steam account is NOT required for using gog.com copies
* Steam account IS required for boxed copies, which contain steam key
* Steam copies, gog.com copies and boxed set copies are all compatible

Multiplayer game setup currently requires access to Triumph's lobby server, which is why all LAN game computers must also connect there at the start of the game. Once the game is underway, they talk to each other directly, no internet required.

It does not matter if there is NAT/DHCP or something else, because all players connecting from the LAN identify the player to the server through one of the following:
* Steam account
* Triumph Studios account (i.e. the ageofwonders.com forum account)
* possible multiplayer online code (for boxed sets and/or gog.com copies, not quite sure about this. Eador: MotBW had a multiplayer code when bought from GOG, so there is precedent)

Before somebody starts screaming about DRM, take a deep breath. Gog.com copies are DRM free in that there is nothing to prevent the owner from installing on e.g. his home desktop and his laptop, but what it does mean is that only one installation at a time can be used for multiplayer. This is not exactly an unreasonable measure.

When you fire up the game, you also have the option of starting it in guest mode, i.e. not logging in to the game with an online profile. So you can play in offline mode too. I have not tested how that works, because for beta testing purposes it has been far more convenient to just log in with the Triumph account (even though the beta is on Steam).

From what I understand, some of the particulars of how all of that works are still works in progress and I can't say anything more than I already have anyway without running afoul of the NDA.



REGARDING PBEM

The biggest obstacle are the file sizes, which are so large just 20 turns in that most email service providers will just discard the messages as too large, even if you compress the bloody thing. So for a PBEM or equivalent service, it would probably require a dedicated server for turn file upload/download and a system to identify games (something like the llamaserver for Dominions 3 and Dominions 4). There is nothing to prevent Triumph from actually documenting the APIs to facilitate third party servers in this regard if they add PBEM functionality like this.

Then all it requires is someone (either Triumph themselves, or a volunteer third party) to run a server. Note that this bit about how it could be done is pure speculation, since Triumph Studios has said nothing about how they intend to go about implementing PBEM. This is one possible way and it deals with the problem of overlarge attachments by circumventing traditional email service providers by simulating it on a different platform.


Note also that the particulars of just how exactly all of the things enumerated in this post work are subject to change if Triumph decides to alter things before release, so do not treat it as the infallible truth. I'll roast the tailfeathers off the first person who does.


Hopefully this addresses some of your concerns.

[This message has been edited by Edi (edited 03-04-2014 @ 06:32 AM).]

I'm still concerned. Because you said it in your last sentence for yourself.

Quoted from Edi:

Note also that the particulars of just how exactly all of the things enumerated in this post work are subject to change if Triumph decides to alter things before release, so do not treat it as the infallible truth. I'll roast the tailfeathers off the first person who does.

Exactly that is the question. Are you sure all you explained will be like this in the official release??

Apart from that, I hope you will be right about the Steam account of course.

Quoted from Edi:

The biggest obstacle are the file sizes

I've heard this before, but how big are they actually? More than 20 MB? They should, because if not, where is the problem? Most Email providers can handle 20 MB turns or even more. And even if it is more, they shouldn't care about. Let this be the problem of the players...

Nonetheless a server for PBEM would be great. I think I might have an option for such a server. Triumph should just offer the opportunity. Several people will then offer such servers, believe me. Not a big deal in my opinion.

For the record, I don't share those concerns. I'm confident that the broad outlines of what I posted are correct and the bit about Steam accounts not being a requirement for playing GOG purchases is set in stone. Some details may change, but I don't know what and those go into the fiddly technical side of things in the engine and server system where I do not have visibility. The process description should be broadly correct.

As far as file sizes, depends on map, but they get big fast. Between 10 and 20 is pretty easily achieved. Many email providers also have lower attachment limits (20 is pretty damn high).

Quoted from Edi:

As far as file sizes, depends on map, but they get big fast. Between 10 and 20 is pretty easily achieved. Many email providers also have lower attachment limits (20 is pretty damn high).

Not to mention bandwidth charges and monthly limits still common in much of the world.

Quoted from Edi:

I'm confident that the broad outlines of what I posted are correct and the bit about Steam accounts not being a requirement for playing GOG purchases is set in stone.

I'm absolutely not interested in a download, no matter from where. Only the boxed version is interesting for me.

Quoted from Edi:

As far as file sizes, depends on map, but they get big fast. Between 10 and 20 is pretty easily achieved. Many email providers also have lower attachment limits (20 is pretty damn high).

They offer game downloads about several GB, but care about file sizes for Email games? I'm aware that these are two pair of shoes, but it is still bit crazy IMO, but for example: gmail allows 25 MB.

I don't think save sizes have to be so big, I believe it's possible to optimize the process of serialization, to eliminate unnecessary data written to save files. But still I like the idea of server-based PBEM-like mode, I think it's much better than traditional PBEM because it's possible to check the current status of the game at any time, and it doesn't rely on email providers, which can cause problems.

Quoted from Albaron:

I'm absolutely not interested in a download, no matter from where. Only the boxed version is interesting for me.

Well, if you download the game from gog, you can burn it on CD/DVD and print the box art and manual, and you have the boxed version

[This message has been edited by PawelS (edited 02-28-2014 @ 04:32 PM).]

Quoted from PawelS:

I don't think save sizes have to be so big, I believe it's possible to optimize the process of serialization, to eliminate unnecessary data written to save files. But still I like the idea of server-based PBEM-like mode, I think it's much better than traditional PBEM because it's possible to check the current status of the game at any time, and it doesn't rely on email providers, which can cause problems.

I agree, but you also won't have such problems if you use a tool like Dave's Email Wrapper.

I don't think save sizes have to be so big, I believe it's possible to optimize the process of serialization, to eliminate unnecessary data written to save files.

Agreed, but as I noted earlier in the thread, that gets you into the problem of creating and replaying those files. That's the "difficulties with protocol and saved game file sizes" problem they need to handle, not the data compression or SMTP protocols that something like Dave's handles, and it's reasonable to release the game as-is and on-time rather then delay it for the benefit of a small part of the target audience.

As a representative of that small part, one can find that annoying, but "it's not personal, it's just business." ;]

[This message has been edited by ChowGuy (edited 02-28-2014 @ 05:34 PM).]

Quoted from Pawel:

But still I like the idea of server-based PBEM-like mode, I think it's much better than traditional PBEM because it's possible to check the current status of the game at any time, and it doesn't rely on email providers, which can cause problems.

It's indeed a great idea, provided that players are allowed to host independent servers (which TS can provide their authentication) for PBEM, not one that dependent on TS. The same goes for LAN games. Simply because as years go by, official servers from game dev will eventually die when they decide to stop providing the service.

About the big file size, what are the main cause of that? If it's about 3D contents, maybe the dev should provide options to create maps in 2D or 3D. Most PBEM players wouldn't care much about 3D content.

More likely about map content, period. All you need is a record of events / moves, and results. The players should already have the maps, and in an incremental system you only need to worry about changes from the previous save point. But that's a very different beast from a stand-alone save file.

Albaron, there are boxed sets also available in certain countries and you can probably have them shipped to wherever you are.

See here. The boxed sets offer the same language install options as the downloadables, so it's up to you where you want to order or even make a play for one of the limited editions.

Albaron, there are boxed sets also available in certain countries and you can probably have them shipped to wherever you are.

I know and my concern is another, as I wrote earlier: Will the boxed sets require a steam account? If so, it's unlikely that I will play the game, so hopefully not.

No, they will not. Only AoW3 copies purchased from Steam will require a Steam account. Copies purchased from GOG do not.

Boxed set copies contain Steam keys.

If you purchase a GOG copy, the only account that may be needed (emphasis on *may*) is a Triumph account, and if you have registered on the ageofwonders.com forum, then you already have one.

If you are uncertain, wait until the game has been released and see how it all shakes out.


EDIT: Fixed erroneous info. Boxed sets contain Steam keys.

[This message has been edited by Edi (edited 03-04-2014 @ 06:31 AM).]

Update to reflect actual facts:

Boxed copies contain Steam keys, so Steam account is required for them. Only gog.com accounts are DRM free.

I had made some assumptions about the boxed copies that were erroneous, but got accurate information yesterday.

Boxed copy needs steam? WHY DOST THOU MOCK ME, GOD???!!!???

Yes, I hate steam - with a passion.

On the other hand, since pbem save files become too large, let's hope Swolte releases the UP 1.5

[This message has been edited by nyarlathotep (edited 03-05-2014 @ 09:28 AM).]

I have also give up, for now at least...wasnt too happy that there will be no play by mail,since am old fart and dont exatly have time to play games for several hours online,and i dont like steam,but GoG sounded more reasonable with no DRM.However they introduced new regional prices not so long ago.Since i live in Serbia,am expected to fork out $54.99 while ppl living in USA and some othe EU countries can get it for $39.99.Sorry but i dont see why i should give extra money for exactly the same product.If Serbia was super rich country then maybe,but just maybe it will make some sense.However truth is exactly the opposite,average salary here is 300 euros and for the price of this game i can eat for half a month in small local restaurant, since meals are around 3 euros...so am still looking but unless something change in future,i wont be buying it.

Steam key to play even when you buy boxset? >.<

I was going to go all the way of asking a friend in France to order the game on Amazon or his local store so that he can bring it to me on his summer trip to Vietnam.

Yeap.. I'll probably stick with Aow:SM for some time. Hopefully Upatch work will be more active after the release of the new game.

Why this nonsensical boxed = Steam thing? Aren't the gamers who really want to have a boxed game also the ones who do NOT want to have a Steam-only game? I know that my personal experience is not representative, but I always had the feeling that those to groups were overlapping a lot.

It's been a long time since I've bought a boxed game, for that reason alone.

I don't mean that people who buy boxes buy them to get a DRM-free version, I just had the feeling people who prefer physical copies often also prefer DRM-free games.

I am getting the GoG.com version.
All good. I don't get many games any more, and those I do are totally OK being a download and not a box.
Looking forward to when PBEM will be available for this game!

[This message has been edited by Sleet (edited 03-27-2014 @ 01:26 PM).]

Hey, Sleet!

Best wishes from England.

Looking forward to meeting you on the pbem field when we can.

We'll get cracking on PBEM as soon as the release storm dies down.
Perhaps we'll sneak in a few beers and a good night of sleep too ; )>

Judging by the sudden amount of posts, I'd say you are already relaxing, sikbok

Good luck with the release, hope AoW III will be a tremendous success... and that pbem will come up eventually!

Yeah, things are settling into place.
Still a big push needed on Monday, but I'm freeing up to do some fun stuff - like posting on the forums - again.

So, if you guys and girls have any questions?
[Perhaps put them in a new topics though]

[This message has been edited by sikbok (edited 03-29-2014 @ 07:39 AM).]

Are there any girls that frequent these forums? Have I foolishly assumed all were guys?

Also, nice to read work on PBEM will commence soon.

[This message has been edited by TravisII (edited 03-29-2014 @ 09:28 AM).]

I know of two ladies who used to pbem, one from Oz who I think went by the name Bethgael and another not too far from me here in England whose name escapes me. Both were active on the forums. There are also a fair few girlfriends of forummers who do play but not post.

Dude! Have you forgotten BlueCollarHeaven?

Can't wait to read the first reviews after today! I'll probably wait until summer/when PBEM option's available.

It's nice to see the forum slowly active again! And from what I see, Chowguy is already working out to pick his cherub whip up again.

Unicorn77 my old friend!
Will send you a PM.
Indeed look forward to some PBEM.