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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW2/SM Competitions, Tournaments & Wizard's Ladder » TNS: 2010 1v1 Mapmaking Tournament - Sign up here!
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Topic Subject:TNS: 2010 1v1 Mapmaking Tournament - Sign up here!
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Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 02-01-10 10:48 PM EDT (US)         
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to TNS (Tournament News Station), for all news regarding the 1v1 mapmaking tournament. Please check in here regularly, as we will have feature interviews on mapmaking with contestants and judges once in a while!

As is tradition, all submitted maps have a reasonable chance to be used for the 2010 1v1 PBEM-tournament, and the winning map is ensured participation.

So, what are you waiting for? Read the rules and conditions, and sign up!

*** THE CHALLENGE ***

The assignment is simple.
Make the best 1v1 tournament map in the world.

Conditions (read carefully!).

The map needs to be...
- the only map you submit to this tournament.
- of a SMALL SIZE only.
- playable as 1 vs 1.
- original, so do not use existing maps.
- made by you, and you alone, using the upatch-1.4.
- in English.
- open to criticism and (sometimes heavy...)
- open for the development of special tournament version. These are revisions meant to improve playability and balance, as the map may be used for an upcoming 1-v-1 pbem tournament.
- made as a tournament map. This means, for example, as balanced as you can! Both *human* playable Wizard should have an approximately equal chance of winning.
- available for the public (once submitted).

For the rest, everything is up to you! You can have underground or not, as many events (but be careful...) and story as you like, a million custom heroes/Wizards, AI Wizards or not, etc, etc...

For good examples of tournament maps, I would highly take a look at the mappack for the 2009 PBEM tournament.

*** THE WINNER ***
Now, why would you want to win this?

#1 - the winner will win a special Age of Wonders/HG drinking cup!
#2 - the winning map is guaranteed to be used in the prestigious 1v1 singles PBEM-tournament final, starting in the summer of 2010. In addition, the winning map may also be used in the first rounds of subsequent PBEM tournaments.
#3 - you can proudly wear the title '1v1 Mapmaking Champion 2010' in your signature! Forever...

NOTE: After the judging, the second and third ranked maps are also guaranteed to be used in the tournament. Remaining maps may also be used, but have no guarantees.

*** REGISTERING ***

Please sign up for this tournament by expressing your interest in this thread and posting your email (This way we can send reminders for the deadline). You can sign up anytime before the deadline to submit the map (see below).

List of contestants: 13
- Swolte
- Enginerd
- LordDuck
- PawelS
- nyarlathotep
- KillKenny
- Albaron
- The AM
- Bluebaby
- Puncturebox
- Charx
- Unsellord
- iBobs


*** SUBMISSION AND TIMELINE ***

DEADLINE TO SUBMIT COMPLETED MAP: MARCH 25th

Please submit the following to: chowguy@heavengames dot com

1) The Map
Please send the .ahm file (doesn't need to be zipped). I recommend NOT to put your name in the map so that judges have no idea who the mapmaker is and be (unconsciously) influenced.

2) -- OPTIONAL -- Statement of Testing and GI-Events -- OPTIONAL --
This is an honor-statement in a text file where you can explain how you have tested the map for balance purposes (no need to submit one if you aren't testing) as well as describe important game influencing events.

- Playtesting (balance): Playing for more than 12 ingame days counts as one testing session. You can indicate how many times you have tested and in what fashion
It's up to each judges' discretion how much value they attach to these statements for their score on 'Balance'.
- GI Events: Game influencing (GI) events are events that influence actual gameplay (Events other than for atmosphere and story). You are advised to indicate the most crucial ones, and in your mapmaking of a tournament map, to keep them to a minimum.

See example below in the FAQ!!

*** THE JUDGING ***

- Who will judge?

TO BE CONFIRMED:
- Arnout (Your Triumph Studios main scenario design/balance developer)
- Timelord (Your Cherub, winner of 2009 1v1 mapmaking tournament, former WL-champion)
- Costa (Your 2009 PBEM champion)
- The Groll (Your expert mapmaker)

- How will the maps be judged?
Chowguy will send the maps on to the judges who will only get the titles of the maps. They do NOT know who made those maps.
The maps will be judged on these three characteristics at face value.

Balance
This design basically and PURELY answers the question: "would you take a challenge playing either Wizard?"
- Are there any unfair advantages for one Wizard?
- Does one side have more opportunity to exploit game mechanics than the other? (e.g., seduce, control animal, etc...)
Note that a map doesn't need to be symmetrical in order to be balanced. You can be quite creative here.


Playability
This design determines whether a map is fun to play AND suits a tournament. Is there something unique/creative in the (strategic) design of the map that makes the gameplay stand out? Is it too predictable, or unpredictable? Is it easy to see what the game-influencing events are doing? Would it take too long to finish, or too fast? To what extent does winning depend on human x human play (as opposed to against AI)? Etc...

Atmosphere
This design determines how the map feels to play: the setting. Can you relate to the Wizard/Heroes? How creative is the landscape and special areas? Are there events or special signs that add to the atmosphere? A story?

*** FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS ***

Feel free to ask any questions in this thread and I will put them up here with the answers.

What does a statement of testing look like?
A statement of testing should give a judge a quick impression.

This is an example:
---------------------------------
STATEMENT OF TESTING/ EVENTS
Map: The Depths.

BALANCE TESTING
Map playtested against myself (5 sessions)
Map playtested with friend (1 sessions)
Map playtested by testers (1 sessions)

(Provide links if there were actual threads)

Relevant comments: Big Archon main starting city does not allow building of Saints.

GI EVENTS
All events were play tested!

Important game influencing events:
- When Queen Ellessil captures the Wand of Earth item, and brings it to the temple of Gaia, the Goblin main underground area will collapse (change terrain: dirt/rock).
- A mighty hero will appear for King Gobbo upon killing the rogue elven hero called Skitzy.

----------------------------------

Isn't the statement of testing flawed and unfair?
The main purpose of this statement is to motivate people to actually test their maps. It is also a way to appreciate those mapmakers who do test!

However, the judges can now also take this into account at their discretion. It will simply be unrealistic time-wise to judge balance on the basis of playing the map once as a judge. There is a lot an experienced eye can see. Keep in mind that if, for example, the map has a lot of events, and is quite asymmetrical, a judge may put more value on the presence of such a statement than when the map is quite straightforward and doesn't need much testing.

However, it is an honor statement and people can indeed lie, and exaggerate. Not to mention that the amount of testing doesn't mean the map is actually balanced better. Please bear in mind that the judges will be (made) aware of this as well.

As for events, these are sometimes not obvious to people and pointing Game influencing events out may make for a better assessment of the balance.

No points are subtracted from NOT having such a statement.

Will the scores of my map be made public?
The idea is that we will only make public a top 5 ranking of maps without scores. Average scores (from all 4 judges per map) are available upon request after the judging. We will not make the names of the judges known.

Can I still change my map after the mapmaking tournament for the pbem tournament?
YES! If your map will be chosen for the upcoming pbem tournament you will receive feedback to make it even better. If you don't have time to fix things, the tournament organizers will make a tournament version of your map and use this.

Can my map get disqualified?
Yes, your risk disqualification if your map does not adhere to any of the conditions listed at the top. Ultimately, the judges decide what to do in such situations.

Why ONLY small maps? I have too many cool ideas and they don't fit!
Sorry, this particular mapmaking tournament is specifically designed for an upcoming 1v1 pbem tournament. FFA mapmaking tournaments allowing for larger sizes will certainly follow in the future.
Allowing medium maps would take too long to finish, even though these can be more interesting. Another reason is that its a very manageable size for our overambitious, and beginner mapmakers. A short but intense time to mapmake is usually best and keeps things fun!

Will my map be played blind?
('Blind' means that the players will not look at the map in the editor before the tournament starts).

No. In the case where knowledge can have influence on the outcome of the game, it is tricky, especially with the eye on the upcoming tournament. We cannot realize people playing the map blind for several reasons. First of all, there is no way we can really ensure that people don't know the map. Second, the judges will also want to play in the subsequent tournament. Third, maps may be played simultaneously in rounds so that earlier logs may betray crucial secrets to others. Fourth, the mapmakers themselves may be participating in the tournament.

Can I use SEM?
Yes. SEM stands for 'Standard Editor Mod' which is a tool designed by JamieJME. It is not a mod in the traditional sense, but it can aid in applying cool tricks to existing maps.
Check it out here


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 03-24-2010 @ 08:31 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
naecO
Member
posted 04-15-10 07:43 AM EDT (US)     126 / 158       
As quoted above, map makers love feedback so we need to know!
I thought I read somewhere that mapmakers can contact judges for detail feedback. It's not like that if they do not publish all the ranking and feedback, you do not get feedback at all


Tired of manually receiving/sending your PBEM turns everyday ? Try out Dave's PBEM Wrapper!
ibobs
Member
posted 04-15-10 08:17 AM EDT (US)     127 / 158       
Just my little view...
Albaron
Member
posted 04-15-10 08:33 AM EDT (US)     128 / 158       
It is also my view...
nyarlathotep
Member
posted 04-15-10 08:34 AM EDT (US)     129 / 158       
Well, let us ask our feedback to the judges, open up a new thread, and any mapmaker who wants it can put the judges feedback on that thread...

Proud mapmaker for the UPatch team
One gas to rule them all, One gas to find them
One gas to bring them all and with the Spice we bind them
Creator of the following maps: RenaissanceEarth, RoadToHell, YeOfLittleFaith, FrostbiteDelirium, Stormy Seas
Co-creator for: CityDwellers
together with TravisII
naecO
Member
posted 04-15-10 08:46 AM EDT (US)     130 / 158       
I had a short half hour of fun guessing the maps before looking at map name posted by ChowGuy in the Download box

Funny thing I guessed Swolte's map to be Nyarlahotep's and vice versa. The AM's map I thought it was ibobs'. Pawel had me by playing with the name Flander so I thought it was Enginerd's

Those maps look fun! I'm happy that a few didn't limit their creativity to the guidelines . Of course those maps will have hard time getting into top maps judged by... judges but they will be fun to play.


Tired of manually receiving/sending your PBEM turns everyday ? Try out Dave's PBEM Wrapper!
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-15-10 08:56 AM EDT (US)     131 / 158       
Just to avoid confusion, and as mentioned before, we won't post all the results publically. Only the scores for the top 5, as per plan, for the simple reason it would not be fair to change such rules mid-way.
For next year, we can consider and discuss alternate options. However, I haven't heard any compelling reason, yet, why people would want to force other people's lower ranked map scores and comments to be public.

However, if you are really, really interested in my low score (provided I end low) feel free to email me and I'd be happy to pass it on (along with an explanation of why all the judges were wrong! )

Anyway, lets enjoy the maps!

I am really impressed! Can't help writing little blurps about each... sorry.

Both Flander maps (Pawel and Enginerd) are very detailed and look great to play - a joy to look around in! Gorgeous! Will definitely need to study these more.

Around the Mound looks quite practical for a tournament - simple and straightforward. Interesting work from Bluebaby there, from whom we haven't seen much work in the past!

LordDuck, he did it again, I think... Map looks even better than last year. This one is a bit tricky to get an impression of at first sight. Love those glaciers!

Unsellord, never heard of the author, but you wouldn't say that from the map. Always good to have a check board design map.

nyarlathotep, great work. Map is really in theme! Big improvement compared to his map from last year, I think.

Charx, with hopes end... wow, another great map, so it seems. When will this end?!!! Every map I open so far looks fantastic! As with a few other maps, a daring new concept for a tournament map, so I am not sure if it will score high with all the judges, though. Very interesting, nonetheless.

Muppets vs Fruit by AM... wowwowwowwow!! Gorgeous work! No idea how it will play, though. Can't wait to take a closer look (well, I can, since I have a life outside this too).

Oceania by Puncturebox looks very interesting. I think I can see, after a while, what the author is after! Each side really has particular advantages and disadvantages. Nice work.

The experiment looks like a typical tournament map, however, it seems there is an added element of earthquakes! Very cool, but risky... will need to study more!

iBob's up and under... ack, by this time I am already having a headache trying to organize a PBEM tourney with 12 maps as this one, too, seems completely great!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 04-15-2010 @ 08:58 AM).]

nyarlathotep
Member
posted 04-15-10 08:59 AM EDT (US)     132 / 158       
You have absolutely no idea how much that flatters me *blush*

Proud mapmaker for the UPatch team
One gas to rule them all, One gas to find them
One gas to bring them all and with the Spice we bind them
Creator of the following maps: RenaissanceEarth, RoadToHell, YeOfLittleFaith, FrostbiteDelirium, Stormy Seas
Co-creator for: CityDwellers
together with TravisII
ibobs
Member
posted 04-15-10 11:13 AM EDT (US)     133 / 158       
Hi Costa / Arnout,

Please send me the feedback on my map when you get a chance. I dont have your email addresses to contact you directly.

Thanks!
Ibobs
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-15-10 01:31 PM EDT (US)     134 / 158       
Judging was anonymous, please request feedback from Chow, as he has it all. Email has been sent out now. Results should be made know really fast.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 04-15-2010 @ 01:36 PM).]

Enginerd
HG Angel
posted 04-15-10 01:42 PM EDT (US)     135 / 158       
Uploaded my map... it should show up eventually.

For everyone who wasn't a judge I'd love to hear your comments over there in the dl sections.

.... anxiously awaits to hear the results....
morgul666
Member
posted 04-15-10 01:52 PM EDT (US)     136 / 158       
Wow! I took my time and spent 30mins on a superficially look into all the maps (excluding Albaronīs because I already knew it ) and what should I say?
I can only agree to what I read already: Great work of all mapmakers, god, Iīm happy that I did not have to vote!
I just read Naecoīs comment that Chowguy released the mapmaker-names... Either Iīm as blind as my wife always claims or he filled the names later but I could swear when I downloaded the file there were no names!
But believe it or not - I guessed only one map right which was Swoltes!
Why? two reasons:
Because of the northeastern part (typical Swolteīs use of terrain elevation (which is far to less used by others imho but I know about the trouble it brings during game...)
and because itīs the most 'sparse' map of all (at least on the surface) and I learned that the more sparse a tourney map the higher chances it has to win

My favourite is the one of the biggest understater (is that the right word for the opposite of impostor?? ) the A M !
Itīs not that I like the map from overall point of view much better than all the others but it has some nice terrain areas that I have never seen before and this is for me as mapmaker always very interesting (and itīs interesting to see that time and again somebody still finds some new tricks that nobody hasnīt used before)

So all of this is just from a very very superficial point of view! I havenīt checked anything in detail so itīs a pure design commentary when I say again: Great work from everybody!
I hope that Iīll have the time to participate again on the tourney this year although I almost fear I canīt make it this time but who knows.

Now Iīm curious whoīll make it, I can hardly imagine whether all those nice maps had been thoroughly tested by the judges in these two weeks and from pure design perspective itīs almost impossible to chose some winners.

Author of the following maps for AOWSM:
Version 1.4: DEMONWARS II (Transcendence & Immortalis)
Version 1.3: (also playable in 1.4) Gates to another World 1.4
><-><-><- Planning replaces coincidence by error. -><-><-><-
Bluebaby
Member
posted 04-15-10 02:04 PM EDT (US)     137 / 158       
Next competition should have a deadline by end of November, then we can have the results at Christmas eve! (or Jule eve, if you like)
Luke811
Member
posted 04-15-10 03:36 PM EDT (US)     138 / 158       
Lol , I don't know who made Fruit vs muppets, but i find this very amusing :P also the hero discriptions are funny

found a few errors... if you take the hero with spawn larve, if you take a spell it will automatically spawn a larve because of the quick battle. And one refeguee shade is concoalent so you can't see which unit is standing there. But I assumed it was a shade so not a real problem.

sorry to give some feedback [ hope this is aloud... ]

What tastes like chicken? Precious ? Yes !
Chicken does, but so does turkey. It means they are all
against us, how else would explain such an inconsistency ?

You ,you're against me, at least I know that.

The universe smiles wicked, hungry smile at us, but through bars, mind you.
The Groll
Member
posted 04-15-10 06:33 PM EDT (US)     139 / 158       
OK after I read it all here and then watched the download area I was surprised that the maps (and more interesting for myself the mapmakers names) are released and online!

Very interesting for myself to see that I was right sometimes but also wrong often.

Let me say something to the discussion about scores from the judges in public or position of the maps in public.

We have 12 maps in this contest.
I can understand both sides now.
First I think now that it can be bad to release the all scores down to place 12.
Maybe mapmaker no. 12 is not happy to read his name and feel like the biggest looser.
So I am twisted now. Before I would say: "Release all votes!"
I would do it and would not be too unhappy if silly judges rate my map to no. 12. Sure I would be unhappy and angry.

So while I check the mapmakers names just some minute ago in my voting document and insert the mapmakers names in my private scoring table I feel that this scores and the results and place 1-12 doesnīt mean so much.
I thought this before but now I made something new.
Sure you mapmakers and the public will only see place no.1 - 5 but what does this mean.
So I create something new and more fair with my scores.
I made a % Score.
When I now tell you that no. 1 got 81,25% while no. 2 got 80% and no. 3 got 78,75% what will a no 1 place be then?
Are not all this three maps near the same and in fact no. 1 maps?
And when I tell you that I also have two times exactly the same score for two maps?
So what is a place no.1 then?

So whatever comes and who ever is the no. 1 in the end I think you all mapmakers have won but not you alone!
Also the players out there have won 12 fantastic new maps.

I donīt see someone scratching the no. 12 when he want to play a tournament with his friends. If he do he does not have a good knowledge of AoWSM.

I also think it would be a good idea if all judges now get the scoring charts of all other judges. This will give all mapmakers trust in the judges and more in the final results. No one can cheat. If I donīt know all votes from the other three mapmakers I could maybe thing something is wrong wrong the final results. I really trust Swolte and Chow Guy but a unhappy mapmaker will maybe not trust you so much so I suggest to make the total results open for the four judges. Then anyone will know but not see that all goes the right way.

I offered you mapmakers and maybe even the public my word document that I have used to compare and vote for the maps and some of your already asked for it.
I think I could release it in the download area if the tournament staff accept this.
I can scratch the scores in this doc so no one will be harmed if you like.

I imagine that this doc is dynamite and the bombs can explode under my chair because maybe one mapmaker feels I am an idiot voting for his map like this.
So the idea to let the judges be anonymous isnīt that bad but I would risk a bomb under my chair.
I think this is a present and I think I made it as good as possible but I also accept other ideas and statements.

AoWSM Maps: 1. Marlenes Welt 2. Marlenes Schatten 3. Marlenes Gnade
Up.1.4 Maps: 4. Secrets of Marlenia (UPatch 1.4 Map - update) 5. Gates of Elocin - Part I (Mapmaking Competition - Winning Map) 6. Davidīs Winter Wonderland 7. Fairy Wedding
8. Marleneīs_Laughter 9. The Gods Arena Of Magic And Power 10. The_Wilderness 11. Kayland (AoW I Mod) 12. Mia-Mina_&_The_Seadrake
11. AoW I Sound Set for AoWSM 12. Gentleman Rules Set
Need Help? The Conqueror's Fieldguide to The Groll's Universe
Proud member of the Upatch 1.4 & 1.5 Team
ChowGuy
HG Cherub
posted 04-15-10 07:22 PM EDT (US)     140 / 158       
I also think it would be a good idea if all judges now get the scoring charts of all other judges. This will give all mapmakers trust in the judges and more in the final results.
It is and has always been part of the plan to distribute the final chart, with comments, to all judges as a multi-page spreadsheet file. However it will not show which judge provided which sheet. Nor will that be provided to those asking for feedback scores, only the relevant number sets themselves.

I must apologize for prematurely releasing the map file before the official announcement ** but as of this point, and in consultation with the tournament directors, the judging is closed. Results to go up as soon as I finish the edits.

** Not to mention posting the wrong .ZIP file. For some reason the one I put up has the filenames in DOS 8.3 format. Although this is in fact the way it was sent to the judges originally, there is a updated copy in 7-Zip format with long names, which I will be putting in its place. I plead bad hair day. Either that, or someone sent me his flu bug.

I *hate* April 15th!

CG (Your slightly frazzled scorekeeper)

ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the Wanderer
The Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum

[This message has been edited by ChowGuy (edited 04-15-2010 @ 07:25 PM).]

Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 04-15-10 07:23 PM EDT (US)     141 / 158       
My stance on the scores - make it public if the discussion about the scores can be kept civil. However, I do not know if that is a good idea for this competition as the initial rules framework didn't have that in.

Also, while all maps can be on par with each other with some balance and playability tweaks, that is not the case currently. There is a score and a table of results and a winner for that purpose - to highlight the map that was the best in terms of competitive 1vs1 play. To say all maps are equal at this point would not be fair - not to the top 5 who put out better creations from a competitive 1vs1 game point-of-view and not to the rest of the mapmakers who need to realize where they need to improve when designing competitive 1vs1 maps.

It is specifically for that last point that I said before that additional feedback can be requested from judges - that was the case in the last tournament and the same in the current tournament. I don't expect ChowGuy to have all the comments since the scoring sheet asked the judges to put in only brief comments.

2009 1v1-Mapmaking Champion, Former PBEM Singles Champion, Proud contributor to the UPatch 1.4 and 1.5 effort
War of the Twins- 1 vs 1 PBEM map, Too Much Water - 1 vs 1 PBEM map, winner of 2009 1vs1 Mapmaking Challenge
My Dragon Age development blog
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-15-10 07:39 PM EDT (US)     142 / 158       
I just want to make clear that there is no discussion on the following for this tournament.


Similar to last year:

- The judging is anonymous. This was written in the above thread as well as in detail in instructions to the judges.

- Only the top 5 scores will be made public.
Feedback from the judges will be given by Chowguy by email (who should have released the scores by now, but he probably dozed off a bit... ).

For next year, we can totally re-discuss the procedures and on what information is best to be public or not.
I think I could release it in the download area if the tournament staff accept this.
I can scratch the scores in this doc so no one will be harmed if you like.
Good question.

Please do not release the document publically, and especially scores, this was in line with past promises.

However, please do post your comments in the downloads section for authors who will upload their map separately (which every one should! ).
I will upload my map soon, and Enginerd already uploaded his. Then, every feedback is open for those who want it but we don't force it on someone.

In fact, everyone will hopefully comment in the download section for each individual map!

- Goes to check on Chow what takes him so long with these scores! -
Heck, I don't even know who won!!!


ps, yes, Groll, the judges will receive the scores and comments of other judges.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 04-15-2010 @ 07:44 PM).]

PawelS
Member
posted 04-15-10 07:43 PM EDT (US)     143 / 158       
Chowguy released the scores in the General Discussion section 10 minutes before your post

A proud member of the Unofficial Patch team.
Creator of the AoW1 Mod.
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-15-10 07:46 PM EDT (US)     144 / 158       
He's good. I feel bad.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
ChowGuy
HG Cherub
posted 04-15-10 07:47 PM EDT (US)     145 / 158       
Chowguy released the scores in the General Discussion section 10 minutes before your post
Don't you just *hate* it when that happens? Also, News post up on main page. (Now I suppose I should check to see how badly I muffed the HTML)
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-28-10 10:49 AM EDT (US)     146 / 158       
So is there a way to question the judges about their comments? Not to change the scores, but a little clarification about what I missed is needed. For example - judge 4 said that my events where incomplete. Now, I have checked them many times now and need to know what I missed!

As I say, I wonder why the judges need to be anonymous...

But also let me be very clear that I am not upset by the judging, I dont want to change any of the scores and I am not trying to cause hassle. I just think I can make a better map with some feedback...

Thanks!
For this tournament we decided to have the judges to be anonymous. Mainly for two reasons:
1) Practical: the judge would be put in a situation where he must defend his comments to a potential 10+ maps. Which is a lot of work, especially if there are disagreements. Keep in mind that the judges are asked to give their impression. The judging DOES NOT REFLECT A 100% ACCURATE ASSESSMENT OF THE MAP because it is simply impossible to play-test these maps thoroughly. And not all judges have tournament experience or experience w competitive play. Personally, I wouldn't want to be a judge in that situation.

2) Fairness: the judge is a human being and people can be more open and indiscriminate when they know their comments are anonymous. If there is hard criticism, you want to be able to give it, but you may not give this hard criticism if you know that the mapmaker (could be a friend) may be upset with you. These procedures are very common, for example in - real life - scientific peer reviewed journals where reviewers of papers are anonymous.

I can see why people would disagree with 2) as there is actually a deep interesting philosophical/ethical discussing underlying the view about human nature.

Anyway, this was the agreed procedure, whether people agreed with it or not (judges as well as contestants). For next year, if there are good reasons (and perhaps someone else organizing it ) these may change. I personally belief this is the best system.

If you want more feedback from the judges, specifically, the judges are urged from the VERY beginning by email and instructions to post their comments (more elaborated) in the downloads section with their map. If they do not post it there, they probably do not wish to enter into (lengthy) discussion about their comments (which we should respect to be their choice).
Also, please note that if your map is chosen for the PBEM tournament, there will be LOTs of feedback and backs and forths, and I can tell you, as an organizer, there will be more feedback and comments than you like... probably much more detailed than the judges (as we will have more time).


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 04-28-2010 @ 02:42 PM).]

ibobs
Member
posted 04-28-10 05:14 PM EDT (US)     147 / 158       
1) Then dont be a judge.
2) Then dont be a judge.

I know technically it is one point, but I thought is worth mentioning twice (see Red Dwarf series 6!)

Judge 4 I would like more feedback, thanks.

Swolte - sign me up for next years judging panel. Thanks.

Again - I dont want to argue with the comments - I just want to know why.... Oh why???
naecO
Member
posted 04-28-10 06:55 PM EDT (US)     148 / 158       
1) Then dont be a judge.
2) Then dont be a judge.
Hi ibobs,

I don't think you are being fair with the judges. They WERE ASKED to be one for various reasons (experiences in map making, experience in PBEM playing...), not that they asked to be judges.

Besides, I have seen Timelord giving his comments in a few participants' map in the download section. He probably hasn't had time to comment on all maps, yet. Other judges would have their reasons not to. I don't understand why making a big deal out of it Giving comments by email or in the download section are so different?
Maybe participants do not feel bad listening to hard criticisms, but the judges would feel bad saying it directly to mapmakers, wouldn't they?

Anyhow, I have probably said that somewhere but the comments of the judges as well as the rating of the competitions are just relatively important to the quality of the maps. Being forced to stick to certain criteria of the competition (for the 1v1 Tourney), good maps could be looked over by the judges' decisions. Personally, the only 1v1 maps I have enjoyed playing so far are Fubarno's maps and Timelord's War of Twins. I remember having endless PBEM with Albaron and various players with Valley of Turmoil and War of Twins For the last few years, I haven't had time for duo PBEM but these maps are still pretty much what I look forwards to. So I'd sincerely ask people to take the comments and rating of the competition with light heart. Maybe it's easy for me to say because I didn't participate but it's really what I think


Tired of manually receiving/sending your PBEM turns everyday ? Try out Dave's PBEM Wrapper!

[This message has been edited by naecO (edited 04-28-2010 @ 07:00 PM).]

The Groll
Member
posted 04-28-10 07:44 PM EDT (US)     149 / 158       
Maybe if Ibobs want feedback form judge no. four and judge no. four does not like to show his face we could make it another way.
Maybe ibobs can ask his question here and the judge no. four can sends his answer to Chow Guy. So no one will see who the judge no. four is. Chow Guy can post the answer here or send it to ibobs.
So the judge will stay in the shadow and ibobs get his answer... if the judge like to answer.

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Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 04-28-10 07:51 PM EDT (US)     150 / 158       
1) Then dont be a judge.
2) Then dont be a judge.
The idea was that for reason 1 and reason 2 it would make it fairer as well as more practical to do for the judges.

Apart from flailing 'why... Oh why!?', do you have any argumentation for it?


Obviously, if we all choose judges, as a criterium, who don't mind going face to face with the mapmakers and are into providing feedback with each (AFTER THE FINAL MARK IS GIVEN), that would be great... However, I can imagine people not wanting to be a judge who would otherwise be very capable, and I would definitely not ask anyone from TS (who are busy, as most of us) to do so. Just because I can predict that it will be a... MESS!


Anyway, I am not sure what you want, iBobs.

If it is justice you want, well, there simply is no changing the scores anymore after the judging. And, when it comes comments, I think that no judge is perfect in their comments. I mean, we give them less than a month to judge 10+ maps, whereas to really know a map well, it realistically takes one month/map.


If it is feedback or clarification you want, it is up to the judges themselves. Reasonable, not? Those who will want to share and discuss it with you, will post it in the downloads section. Those who don't, don't! Simple. We decided to leave it to the judges themselves.
Timelord was one of the judges who doesn't mind to open up his comments and I am sure he'll post soon at your map as well. I am sure that the Groll will post something soon too.

You're very welcome to join the judges' team for next year. If you WANT to, though...


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 04-28-2010 @ 08:14 PM).]

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