Liquid form on targets? If it's not the case, send me autosave before the battle with description who exactly was attacked by these units.

No to the liquid form. Will it matter if I'm playing a mod?

It probably matters, since we haven't found anything else to blame yet =) It's really tough to guess without seeing the mod and the save.

I find that normal with units that have special strikes (magic, fire, holy, cold,...). No documentation says that special strike gives additional damages but that happens. Seeing a hero (with a lot of special strikes combined) hit 20+ is not something new to me.

It always happens on fire nodes and from units with fire strikes. I'd send you a save, but it's a custom mod and would require a lot of work on your part to set up

It also occurs with ranged attacks, but only against units without immunity to that type of attack, i.e. fire.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 08-12-2011 @ 09:01 PM).]

Define "a lot of work" =) And if problem is gonna be just missing graphics, I don't care about that, as long as the save can be loaded.

Ok, ok, ok! Where should I send the resource set and save?

hellbrick at gmail dot com

Do you also focus on AI? I usually play with friends cooperative against the AI (comp-stomp) and the better the AI the more fun we have. If the AI always looses even the best game gets boring pretty fast.
I wouldn't even mind if the AI cheats a bit if it helps to make it competitive...

AI already cheats by getting more gold, power and exp - but as you can see it doesn't help a lot. AI is weak algorithmically, and there's nothing we can do with it without having the source code. Unless you have concrete simple ideas of helping AI, that could happen to be possible =)

I'm still in the AOW2 SM multiplayer "preparation phase".
I didn't play for ages so I don't know anymore how the AI performed at that time.
I just read some comments that it seems to be easy to beat several AI's on highest difficulty. (I don't remember it to be that bad though...)

There seems to be a mod Wizards & Heroes 3.0 that tries to improve the AI.
Though some of the 'tricks' were giving the AI some starting skills to make them more powerfull. Not really the greatest way of improving the AI but if it's the only way...
However, I also saw some comments that certain mods succeeded in getting the AI to expand build certain buildings.

Edit:
Just curious, is it normal that I can have a bone dragon in round 14? The spell was immediately available, took about 8 turns to research and 6 to cast?
I then started a normal 1.4 game with the same settings and had the spell 'Animate Hero' (also Lv3) available which should be finished in 23 turns. However, according to my hand book, the research time of bone dragon should be about 4 - 5 times higher than 'Animate Hero'. That looks kind of strange...

[This message has been edited by ArkhanTheBlack (edited 08-15-2011 @ 05:33 PM).]

To your edit:

Chance of getting level 4 spells has been increased

Probability of getting level 4 spells didn't match logic of 1-3 level spells - it had probably been lowered for the sake of singleplayer and campaign. As a result of that, level 4 spells appeared in multiplayer very rarely, so we have increased chances to get them a little.
New weights for spell randomization (1/2/3/4 level): 1000/750/500/250 (were 1000/750/500/150).

Strange thing, i got Black Angel spell some times on first 4 turns in 1.3/1.4. But, well rare is not impossible then.

More importantly i wonder about this a lot:

Static shield

Upkeep = 8 (was 10)

Just some facts:

1. This enchant is without a single doubt the most powerful one and decides games on its own no matter if its FC or TC fights. What it does against aother players in TC should be obvious after several games with it, but it also will take out almost any indie unit, by stunning it, almost 100% the one or other way.
A successful retaliation hit will certainly stun it and only ss or lightning immunity prevents this.

2. A bug in the retaliation strike system makes this even more powerful, cause units can after sucessfully stuning its victim retaliate 2 times, even if they have no MP left, the attacked unit with ss kinda goes into a retaliation frenzy.


So, all you should honestly do, is to give it some weaknesses, physical weakness would fit this well, compared to what game changing power this one gives, not just in mpe in all mods out there.
Why penalize fire halo(!) and liquid form and not this one? I have seen liquid form also got immunity to trap and web in SL mod, might be a deal with that weakness added into it.

Playing around with the upkeep in a world where everyone will have enough mana when ss tactics are on the plan, does absolutely nothing. It has no impact on anything.

I'd rather remove this spell or add a serious weakness to it. Yes there is the hall of enchantment for water specialists but they could use a different version of this spell without any penalities. I think resurgence alone has 3 versions, for an example.

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-18-2011 @ 09:16 PM).]

@ ArkhanTheBlack:

Sorry, I almost missed the fact that you edited the post.

Just curious, is it normal that I can have a bone dragon in round 14? The spell was immediately available, took about 8 turns to research and 6 to cast?

You always have one level 3 spell in your spellbook at the start of the game, it worked this way since the very beginning of AoW.

However, according to my hand book, the research time of bone dragon should be about 4 - 5 times higher than 'Animate Hero'. That looks kind of strange...

Bone dragon costs 300 research, while Animate hero costs 160 research. It seems you just got better research power in the first game =)

---

@ DarkMystery:

A successful retaliation hit will certainly stun it and only ss or lightning immunity prevents this.

Uhh, do I miss something about the SS? As far as I know, it has the standard Atk = 8 for all stun calculations. How can it certainly stun on a retaliation strike? o_O

A bug in the retaliation strike system makes this even more powerful, cause units can after sucessfully stuning its victim retaliate 2 times, even if they have no MP left, the attacked unit with ss kinda goes into a retaliation frenzy

That's planned to be fixed eventually.

So, all you should honestly do, is to give it some weaknesses, physical weakness would fit this well, compared to what game changing power this one gives, not just in mpe in all mods out there.

Well, this is interesting idea, though isn't Physical weakness a bit harsh? The spell isn't free, you know =) It's possible to make SS lower unit's characteristics - in fact, it has always been possible to do by the standard editor. I think the rational middle ground can be found in lowering characteristics or in lowering stunning Atk for SS - we'll think about it.

P.S. I disagree with "anyone will always have enough mana for SS" - reality often begs to differ.
P.P.S. I must admit I have no idea why the upkeep was lowered =) It was changed in a collective multiplayer mod made by our community, which we used as a starting point for MPE default resources.

[This message has been edited by HellBrick (edited 08-19-2011 @ 03:20 AM).]

Uhh, do I miss something about the SS? As far as I know, it has the standard Atk = 8 for all stun calculations. How can it certainly stun on a retaliation strike? o_O

static shield is not just a lightning strike with atk=8 vs res. Its a shield as the name suggest. If an unit hits a ss protected unit sucessfuly it gets stunned 100% of the time if it has no immunity against lighning.

You can test this.

Besides ss gives lightning immunity too.

Can there be a weakness too harsh to balance this op enchant? I wonder why liquid got fireweakness and fire halo coldweakness harmless enchants compared to ss in my book ;>

SS enchanted army can only be beaten by ranged units, ss, or lightning immune units. Meelee without protection gets slaughtered. ;>

You always have one level 3 spell in your spellbook at the start of the game, it worked this way since the very beginning of AoW.

Yes, noticed that too. I had summoner talent and full death spells. So it was pretty much to be expected. Also tried Dwiggs mod and the research time was almost the same.

Bone dragon costs 300 research, while Animate hero costs 160 research. It seems you just got better research power in the first game =)

My hand book is still from AOW 2 (not SM) and the research costs seem to be pretty outdated. Bone dragon was 450 and summon hero 100 there. Therefore I got a bit confused...

static shield is not just a lightning strike with atk=8 vs res. Its a shield as the name suggest. If an unit hits a ss protected unit sucessfuly it gets stunned 100% of the time if it has no immunity against lighning.

You can test this.

Besides ss gives lightning immunity too.

I'm perfectly aware about SS being a shield =) But attackers do NOT get stunned 100% of the time; this defensive stun is calculated as a normal status attack, with Atk=8 against target's Res. You can test this

I wonder why liquid got fireweakness and fire halo coldweakness

That mainly falls under "atmosphere and logic" category. And don't forget we actually made both spells stronger - Liquid form gained water concealment and Fire halo gained Web/Trap immunity/removal, so the weaknesses were also meant to compensate that.

[This message has been edited by HellBrick (edited 08-19-2011 @ 04:33 PM).]

sure about SS?

Hehe by that logic, you should see liquid form in SL mod, it got trap/web immunity like fire halo.....i mean, how should a net hold something liquid?

Certainly, there must be a line between logic and game balance. Just want to point out no matter how SS works, it does work too well and is op as an enchant, while i think, fire halo and liquid form just help a bit out on this. For instance liquidform is useless against ew(a common and cheap spell) enchanted units except the unit got somehow a magic protection/immunity too, and tough units with magic prot/immunity are really rare in mpe.

Btw, looked a bit on hamachi for games, but seems only 3 players are at a time availible and i used 2 russian aow networks.

Players should really meat at 1 point in these times as this game is really old and sadly, not as popular as homm3, that game always had more people than aow for not a really good reasion...

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-19-2011 @ 07:17 PM).]

Russians play on regular basis. Though there are not so many players in summer time, cause of people go to country side. Tir is always talking same wrong things, stop listenning to him. Particular spell could not be unbalanved, whole sphere could. Is water sphere overpowered? Does everybody play only wanter and select cosmos with 3 water. No, so stop this stupid talking. Also it is not good idea to make enhancements weeker, it diminishes role of magic in the game. Also there is dispel spell. Personaly I stopped playing aow online very much because of dispel and fast clicking to dispell. I may suggest to move ss to level 4, so it will be more exclisive.

I agree that SS is powerful, but I certainly don't think it has 100% chance of stunning units that successully hit the target with SS enchanted. My experience with it is quite recent so I'm fairly sure about that.
Speaking of adding a weakness to it in a sense of logic and balance, how about giving it 'mud'? That will slow down the units in combat to compensate its power.

Lev, and that might be the last time i talk to you over forums, cause you contribute nothing with trolling here:

How about you try to move your stacks in a way so they don't get dispelled on the overland? Ever tried avoiding units and especially buildings LOS? No, LOS no dispel, its that freakin easy. i can do it......perhaps others can manage it too. Its possible even with a 15 sec cap rule, try using high mp units with ss now.

We play of course with the usual 4water/2earth pics, Tigrans or Frostlings. It was strong in the past, its even stronger now, as we are rewarded with ew now. How do you came up with just 3 water...i will never know? Prolly, you don't remember 4 water/2earth sphinx time anymore? Now more effective with doomwolves cause of that awesome mana frostling bonus, good protections vs early rushes(slowing snow terrain, scapers/shard throwers behind wall) and 50mp to avoid globalmap dispels very easily. You could even use liquidform's water concealment here for dispel protection.

4-5 powerful enchants on lvl3-4 units, espcially considering sphinx and doomwolf or early knights/mystics/Mammoth riders and as most important enchants: stone skin and ss included.
You think, this is not too strong? Cause you use it in each game?
Moving ss to lvl4 is a no brainer, i wonder why this was never done so far. But it should get a weakness too, to be in line with fire halo and liquid form, and cause its too powerful in FC and TC. FC is more important in other mods with all the powerful morphs and upgrades with levels, ss on an unit in FC fights means the unit won't die cause the indies are stunned during the whole fight, if there is no immunity against it. Also brings flyers in FC down more easily with ss on melee units that lack a range attack or flying.



@Naeco You are right that there is no 100% chance, and i never said that you get a 100% chance if you just attack, but your attacks AND retaliation strikes will get you almost 100%, the exceptions here are lightning immunity units and high res units like lepers, just in practise units usually have not that high res or that many units do not have lightning immunity to stand a chance not beeing stunned in 1 round.
SS is the most powerful enchant in the game, mud as a penality is certainly not enough to reflect this, especially compared to the penalities weaker enchants as fire halo and liquid form do currently have. If you come up with logic, SS makes you probably unstable and physically weak. Where would slowing help any? with shooters perhaps but not if you use a melee army, and melees got the problem with SS, not shooters.

And finally to all that read this thread and are interested in MP, all i can say is, please find some spare time and join a game via the aow chatroom. Its easy to log in, no requirements, like installing software or registration and you just join an IP. There is no need of tunngle and hamachi. We once got 10 players up there, what is.....much for humble and old aow.

http://02.chat.mibbit.com/

channel: #aow

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-20-2011 @ 07:39 AM).]

sure about SS?

Yep. I even checked it once more yesterday =)

Hehe by that logic, you should see liquid form in SL mod, it got trap/web immunity like fire halo.....i mean, how should a net hold something liquid?

Well, that's a very interesting idea actually =)

Just want to point out no matter how SS works, it does work too well and is op as an enchant

Yeah, I got your idea - we'll think about it.

Btw, looked a bit on hamachi for games, but seems only 3 players are at a time availible and i used 2 russian aow networks.

Summer is a stall season here - most people are on vacations, spending time with the families and/or visiting another places.

Players should really meat at 1 point in these times as this game is really old and sadly, not as popular as homm3, that game always had more people than aow for not a really good reasion...

Couldn't agree more. But I already described in the chatroom discussion topic how problematic it is for our guys to migrate somewhere else. Personally, I hate Hamachi and this stubborn attitude towards trying new things, but there's nothing I can do with it >_<

P.S. Don't feed the troll, please - let's keep the topic clean =)

yeah, double checked ss yesterday too with lepers that have high res one had ss the other not and used healing rain for more results. Its not a 100% thing.

But you believe its almost 100% with units that have lower res, cause of the many checks vs this stun attack through strikes and (sometimes bugged) retaliation strikes.

Btw, its possible to change hall of enchantment enchants?

Btw, its possible to change hall of enchantment enchants?

Should be. I couldn't find the corresponding code the last time I tried (we wanted to change Air's Haste to Seeker), but I want to give it another shot, powered by some new techniques.

Hehe.....thats also my idea....i suggested it long ago changing haste to seeker...... but no one was able to do it at that time.
Seeker makes so much more sense in defending a town.

And i am not sure, if resurgence would be better for life than just the rather weak blessing, at least i would consider to build HoE with full life.

You could also give perhaps fire wizards a better fire halo version one without cold weakness just for HoE, so this bulding makes sense for firewizards even if someone is using mainly cold attacks.

Thanks to the team for the hard work.

I don't MP but I can see these changes are good. I am curious how they change the Campaign. Could you please help me get the Campaign working with MPE? I realize the AI would not be up to par. I am just curious how these changes affect play (role-play). I imagine the travel rules and the spell allocation will enhance RP.

Re: Domain line change. Love it. It makes travel feel like *exploration* again. If it is possible, it could be taken a step further by not identifying whose domain you have entered. Instead, could the messages be more "scripted?" Like, "you feel a surge of power in the air," "the land trembles beneath your feet," "a cold chill runs up your spine." Maybe the messages increase in descriptiveness depending on the archetypes in your traveling party. For instance, if you carry a priest they can identify whose domain you have entered, or what spheres rule the domain you entered (regardless of the diplomacy window). Some creatures could possibly carry more usefulness this way, and scouting may warrant a scouting party as opposed to a scout.

Is it possible to add a double gravity domain spell? An Air Mastery that prohibits fliers or makes them move at a huge penalty? Like the opposite of Haste but for fliers only. They are the best scouts, after all. Wind Resistance or a Wind Barrier. There could be a domain and targeted version, even. (This might have been addressed in -flying +floating. Could a spell -floating +walking?)

[This message has been edited by Qasar (edited 08-20-2011 @ 10:48 PM).]

Could you please help me get the Campaign working with MPE?

You need to open campaign maps in MPE editor and resave them under the same names (no actual changes are needed), that will made it possible to play campaign with MPE. There are 3 maps that editor can't open, because they have the editing locked, but unlocked versions are available here.

If it is possible, it could be taken a step further by not identifying whose domain you have entered. Instead, could the messages be more "scripted?" Like, "you feel a surge of power in the air," "the land trembles beneath your feet," "a cold chill runs up your spine."

That's an interesting idea. Don't know if it's possible, but we'll look into it.

Maybe the messages increase in descriptiveness depending on the archetypes in your traveling party. For instance, if you carry a priest they can identify whose domain you have entered, or what spheres rule the domain you entered (regardless of the diplomacy window). Some creatures could possibly carry more usefulness this way, and scouting may warrant a scouting party as opposed to a scout.

Another nice atmospheric idea. We had some thoughts about different creatures react to the domains in a different ways : for example, some probably shouldn't feel it at all, while some should probably even see the domain border. The problem is we need to add new abilities for this, and we still don't know if it's possible. But I hope we'll find a way

Is it possible to add a double gravity domain spell? An Air Mastery that prohibits fliers or makes them move at a huge penalty? Like the opposite of Haste but for fliers only. They are the best scouts, after all. Wind Resistance or a Wind Barrier. There could be a domain and targeted version, even. (This might have been addressed in -flying +floating. Could a spell -floating +walking?)

Adding new things problem applies to spells as well as abilities. But it's the only thing that prevents us (just for now, I hope) from implementing your ideas, they sound pretty realistic for one who can add abilities and spells.

Thanks for your reply and helpfulness. The editor only lets me open *.ahm or *.u2c. The *.a2c maps are not shown. I will try to rename the extensions as suggested in another topic, then change them back. But first, sleep.

Your work is truly appreciated!
Q

[This message has been edited by Qasar (edited 08-21-2011 @ 01:06 PM).]

.a2c files are just filtered away - input * in the filename field and press enter, that will discard the filter and show campaign files.

Played my first two games with the mod and I like the professional feel of it. I can't justify all balancing changes but I appreciate the attempt to improve the core gameplay.

However, I think that the missing domain lines are a bit of a killer for me. It might have the advantage that stealth strategies can be used with hereos, but I'm not sure if this is a good thing at all. Heroes already have the big advantage that they are 'linked' to the wizard so he can use all his spells in battle or on in the map area of the hero. Last game I made a simple bone dragon spam and I think it's quite powerfull not only to have a strong summoned creature, but also have it immediately available on the front lines in my hero stack. In other games these are two spells: Summon + Teleport. Not to speak of all the other nice stuff I can do with spells if a hero is present. I think there should be a price to pay for having a powerful hero with you.
It remembers me a bit of a scene in star wars when the rebels were infiltrating the Ewok planet and Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader could feel the presence of each other and Luke said he'd endanger the whole mission because Vader could sense him.

I think in a magic world it's perfectly logical that mages can feel the presence of each other and therefore the display of the domain lines makes sense.
Stealth strategies are already possible with normal units.

Besides that it removes some strategic options. If I want to keep one of my stacks in my domain for protection or attack an enemy exactly when he left his domain I'm now forced to guess and I don't really like too much guessing in a strategy game. The messages are not a compensation, if I've used up my movement points and I'm suddenly out of my domain it's too late.

[This message has been edited by ArkhanTheBlack (edited 08-21-2011 @ 08:37 AM).]

I like the reversed air mastery idea. Flying with a lot mp was always a bit too good in aow games. While unnerfed in aow1 and still too powerful in aow2 in combat, they nerfed it in aow:sm a bit in Combat, still they are unerfed on the global map. I think flyers had just 32mp in aow1 for example, and there was no explorer.

Zephyirs are a bit nasty on start with exploring and scouting giving extra huge advantages, but gold and mana piles were reduced in mpe, so that might nerf this kind of stuffa bit. Also still useful against dangerous indies with only land based attacks roaming around.

But imho i find the lvl4 flyers the real strong deal, if you can build them and heavy enchant them, they have big advantages to bypass the rough rmg maps with their water and mountain landscape and even walls in siege if you attack ones tower quickly. They do it prolly so fast, that someone is not even able to use overland dispels proberly too. Can all be done out of the Line of Sight from units and structures.

I got my own questions for Hellbrick

Can de RMG be more improved? Like fixed start positions? Like if you have 4 players playing L+UG so everyone gets a ranom corner position? Somtimes somone starts in the middle, and sometimes its without a magic node, village or gold structure, can be really bad.

Furthermore, its possible to give start position at 1 fixed random magic node and random gold structure next to your towers? I found out the other day that a race like Goblins really are in need of this.

Another Topic Racial Bonus for goblins:
Their growth bonus is only good if they have time to build up or have tons of gold. Even Constructor is a gold saver, does not just build units and buildings faster.
I might consider this the weakest bonus(growth) cause in vanilla and mpe growth is pretty high from start anyways compared to other mods like dwiggs and sl + expander costs only 3 picks. Pretty cheap for such a skill that does exactly the same what goblins do. Constrution is 4 picks and dwarves, demons, orcs, humans have it.

But i think you only really notice this if you are between 2 players without any nodes and resources, so i think better rmg starts will fix this, i'll hope ug starts could be improved and not just option for surface start only if you are ug race and still have ug in the game, cause the ug can be used defensively too.

Last topic:

How about a 2nd ug realm as in aow1, instead of the shadow realm or in addition? Just for the rmg? Don't see the shadow world used much in mp games, also the reasion why the shadow lord got faster in your mod.

Btw, why was taunt and death immunity removed from the glutton, just cause of the new swallow whole formula? Must be really good the new one then. Cause i actually build glutton to counter reapers and lords a bit, without death immunity thats no longer an option. And siege battle without taunt will be hader too.

And -1 def on the warlord? I thought he should have high stats in comparission to the many additional abilities a runemaster has along with quite good stats.
Neve felt, that orcs were that strong to nerf them so much, they completely lack fast units on higher tiers.

Ok still not last topic it was

What about merchant skill? I think 10% more gold is too weak. Especially as starting skill or midgame skill. I found out even survival skill gives more gold to you in the midgame than merchant. I kinda thought it was good as it was in vanilla. Giving gold, without the need to earn gold in the first place, just by owning towns, also was a good combination with goblins that grow a bit faster and get more gold that way with merchant.
Anyways, i think this skill is broken now.