ah, nice changes

its pity about the pixie dust tho. It was fun making the big units confused.

Quoted from Hellbrick:

By the way, what's with the Drain will protecting against Drain will - that's a protection from nested incarnates or is there something else?

Units with Drain Will ability won't have their willpower drained. In another manner of speaking, you cannot use Drain Will on units who have this ability. i.e: Two Incarnates cannot drain each others' willpower.

What Pawel means is that maybe you could open the possibility to drain willpower from units that have Drainwill ability AND creating a new ability that offer protection against Drain Will.

Like Resurrect, this is more of a single-play/PBEM concern than online's.

I know what it means =) I was asking if there's any real purpose in this [Drain will granting immunity to Will drained] besides preventing incarnate to possess an incarnate that anyone knows about. It's a very good idea to know what exactly you're breaking)

[This message has been edited by HellBrick (edited 07-12-2011 @ 04:31 AM).]

You have to ask this question to the game devs. I have no idea.

[This message has been edited by PawelS (edited 07-12-2011 @ 07:18 AM).]

I know adjusting anything about AI behavior isn't easy, but while digging around in there if you determine how the AI decides what units to build and can tinker with that any, it would be neat if you could teach them to produce even one Pioneer. I've seen the AI use Pioneers to create new cities in scenarios where they start with them, but they never build them on their own. I doubt the AI has any means to determine if there is free room left on the map to build new cities, so we wouldn't want the computer to build more than one or two.

I'm curious if you can make any changes to the network code? For example when you go to "Internet" option and put in an IP address the game, rather than actually trying to connect to the destination, pulls up a LAN-esque lobby and looks for a game there. It would be nice to bypass that check as some computers (especially with Windows XP and Windows 7 floating around) don't like to pick up each other's broadcast packets, and skipping that step and trying to connect to a game at the destination right away might alleviate that issue (since you can use a direct IP join over the LAN as well).

Long shot but, you guys are the ones digging around in the code and know if it's doable and how difficult it may be... prioritize accordingly! =)

One more thing. I know I can't be the only person here who's swapped The Wizards Throne combat music into Shadow Magic for a little variety sometimes. TWT's combat music doesn't loop in SM for me though. Is that another "feature" of Shadow Magic, and if so, one that this patch may be able to correct? Both TWT's combat tracks are several seconds longer than SM's. Perhaps the looping routine takes a nap after SM's tracks would of ended? Actually, it would be nice to have a custom combat playlist that looped properly just as we have the custom global playlist, but that one is probably way down Wish Alley... haha.

Keep up the great work, seeing some neat changes and fixes here, and some interesting suggestions from other members.

p.s. Another thought. When I save games I can see the # of turns that have elapsed, but when I load them (at least in the multiplayer screen) I cannot. Any way to make that load screen show up too? That way I don't have to find the latest save by opening the saves folder in Windows Explorer and sorting by last modified date. =)

[This message has been edited by Belix (edited 07-12-2011 @ 02:16 PM).]

it would be neat if you could teach them to produce even one Pioneer. I've seen the AI use Pioneers to create new cities in scenarios where they start with them, but they never build them on their own. I doubt the AI has any means to determine if there is free room left on the map to build new cities, so we wouldn't want the computer to build more than one or two.

This is tricky... I've heard some mod makers tried to make AI produce pioneers by adding some attacking abilities to them - how's that working out? Because the best thing we can do is quite similar: trick AI into thinking pioneers are fine meat good soldiers. The rest of it - when to build, where to build and how much to build - will be up to AI anyway.

For example when you go to "Internet" option and put in an IP address the game, rather than actually trying to connect to the destination, pulls up a LAN-esque lobby and looks for a game there. It would be nice to bypass that check as some computers (especially with Windows XP and Windows 7 floating around) don't like to pick up each other's broadcast packets, and skipping that step and trying to connect to a game at the destination right away might alleviate that issue (since you can use a direct IP join over the LAN as well).

Usually "network code" in the question means "definitely no" in the answer, but this one can actually be possible, since it's more UI issue than a network issue. But it's pretty far from everything we've dealt with so far, so I have no idea how difficult it can really be. Well, idea is totally worth an attempt to implement it =)

TWT's combat music doesn't loop in SM for me though. Is that another "feature" of Shadow Magic, and if so, one that this patch may be able to correct?

Wow, that was unexpected. I have no idea =)

When I save games I can see the # of turns that have elapsed, but when I load them (at least in the multiplayer screen) I cannot. Any way to make that load screen show up too? That way I don't have to find the latest save by opening the saves folder in Windows Explorer and sorting by last modified date. =)

Yeah, that's annoying... But I really doubt there's anything we can do with it.

[This message has been edited by HellBrick (edited 07-12-2011 @ 02:37 PM).]

Not really has anything with the game but would you mind adding date to the changelog on your site? i.e: on .... 1.5.115 was added; on ... 1.5.120 was added.

Ok, will be done when updating log to the new version.

Hey Hellbrick!

Even when I donīt play your mod now (because I am to busy) I want to say that you do a fantastic work and develop the game in a manner no one dares to hope for in the last years.

even when I donīt understand all the things people say here I follow the discussion with great interest.

Whatever one likes, whatever one think about balance or any of your changes - you do a great fantastic job - and it looks like you and Jobe have big fun "working" on all this things.
I imagine your team is like Sherlock Holmes and Doctor Watson.

Keep up your fantastic work and donīt care about balance of this or that unit.

While we all discuss here, we should not forget to praise your little team from time to time!

[This message has been edited by The Groll (edited 07-13-2011 @ 08:04 AM).]

Thanks for your kind words ^_^ Actually, thanks for everyone's kind words - being busy with answering technical stuff, I have been always forgetting to say how grateful we are to hear that people appreciate what we're doing

And this is a lot of fun indeed! There's something fascinating in understanding how things really work. Sometimes it's pretty difficult, but the challenge makes it at least 20% cooler =)

Yes I know what you mean. Even when I am only a simple and dull mapmaker it is very exciting to create new maps and events and new possibilities. Wrapping events in a way it that you think it something total new. Event work is maybe a little similar to your work but of course it does not have the power of programing.

Hello Hellbrick

I have two requests/questions.

The first is why Hellbrick has the same stats as an Efreet? I was all excited to summon him only to find that he dies rather easily. Straight 20s with Physical immunity would do much to fix this

The second is less tongue in cheek. It sometimes occurs in a random map game that my opponent and I are seperated by water. Could you encourage AI to make use of the balloon or edit the generator to check for landbridges (seems unlikely, but can't help to ask)?

Thanks

The first is why Hellbrick has the same stats as an Efreet? I was all excited to summon him only to find that he dies rather easily. Straight 20s with Physical immunity would do much to fix this

HellBricks are modest creatures, so they feel perfectly fine with Efreet's stats and the role of a simple easter egg Also, dying easily allows you to check out the awesome death animation Jobe came up with

It sometimes occurs in a random map game that my opponent and I are seperated by water. Could you encourage AI to make use of the balloon or edit the generator to check for landbridges (seems unlikely, but can't help to ask)?

I doubt there's something we can do with it. Editing generator so it wouldn't create closed areas is absolutely impossible. And making AI use balloons is hardly easier: though it should be possible to teach AI that building transports is good, there's no way to teach it what to do with them afterwards.

I wonder, if the vampire should have floating, because on rmg maps with all that water and mountains sometimes even in your start domain, the undead lack a suitable low tier tactical unit for such terrain requirements. Same can be said about archons.

And the research conversaion rate to mana is too low, if you need mana more than research in early games, for example for summoning stuff or enchants you are at a disadvantage for no reasion, so i wonder if that can be reverted for archons/undead and give draconians just mana bonus? Or remove research alltogether and give them all mana bonus? If you think research is so cheesy.

Also elven racial structure seems now pretty powerful in the early game, and this with very fast forestry units and mana bonus...

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 07-20-2011 @ 11:17 AM).]

Hello Hellbrick,

and I believe that you have written earlier in the thread that Spell Casting can be added to units? If so, how hard a change is this to implement? I'm thinking that one could "create" abilities simply by assigning certain spells to certain units....

Cheers,

Brad

Ironically, you need to be able to add abilities in order to use Spell casting for adding abilities =) Because another casting ability is needed for this, the one that doesn't grant unit access to wizard's spellbook.

Would it Be possible to add a new Blank wizard skill to the wizard customization list? That way it could be used as a Negative Skill Pick to Make Pre-Designed Wizards Skill Points Not carry over to Customized Wizards for mod making. This way a person could have the AI Start with Many skills but custom players would only have a set skill amount that could be configured for each individual mod.

Second is it possible to modify the 8 Hex rule for building Towns closer together or to make this an option in the settings to turn on and off?

Thanks for all the hard work this Patch has opened up so many different possibility for mod making.

it could be used as a Negative Skill Pick to Make Pre-Designed Wizards Skill Points Not carry over to Customized Wizards for mod making

They aren't carried over in 1.5.2 anymore, so this is gonna be possible without blank skills.

Second is it possible to modify the 8 Hex rule for building Towns closer together or to make this an option in the settings to turn on and off?

Yes, it will be made editable.

---

Some kind of the news report. Basically, there are no news =) Spellbook out-of-syncing bug has probably been fixed - due to the intermittent and unreproducible character of the bug there's no way to confirm that it's gone for good, and due to the incredible complexity of the issue the fix was a shot in the dark. Hopefully, my theory was right and we'll never see this again

But other than that, it's a very quiet time now. Jobe and all the testers are on vacations... July is so boring! Well, I always have a lot of interesting stuff to do , but for MPE and AoW it IS boring. The last thing left to do in 1.5.2 is to test the new war mage, which I obviously can't do alone. It's the waiting time for me as well as for you guys =)

Quoted from Change log:

Symbolic link to save folder has been added to default map folder
To make loading online games more convenient

Can you not use the Load game button on the Welcome/Main screen? I play PBEM and all of the time I put my incoming PBEMs there to load the game faster. I suppose the Load Game feature is not just available to Single play. I could be wrong though as I cannot remember the last time I played online.

Edit: PC heat pb came up and cut my post in half >.<
Anyway, is it possible to have the spell book refreshed immediately after acquiring a new spell not by researching (reward, vault, trade...)? At the moment a newly acquired spell can appear on both research book and casting book if it is not learned. It'd be great if it gets removed and a new (hopefully interesting) spell comes up.

[This message has been edited by naeco (edited 07-26-2011 @ 01:21 PM).]

Can you not use the Load game button on the Welcome/Main screen?

You can't "load" online game, you have to create a new one using the save instead of a map.

Anyway, is it possible to have the spell book refreshed immediately after acquiring a new spell not by researching (reward, vault, trade...)? At the moment a newly acquired spell can appear on both research book and casting book if it is not learned. It'd be great if it gets removed and a new (hopefully interesting) spell comes up.

They are refreshed... eventually =) But it's really a good idea to make this immediate.

Quoted from HellBrick:

I know what it means =) I was asking if there's any real purpose in this [Drain will granting immunity to Will drained] besides preventing incarnate to possess an incarnate that anyone knows about. It's a very good idea to know what exactly you're breaking)

Ah, Incarnate on Incarnate action.
Some of my fondest QA Testing moments. Those were the days.

Basically you could make the change, but that way madness lies.
Not 100% sure what we fixed before we stopped trying to fight the cluster*bliep* that resulted from this.

Recursive possession, the gift that keeps on giving.

I have found 2 things preventing the cluster*bleep* (cool word by the way =)):
1. Units that already have Possessed ability have immunity to possession
2. The drain will thing

Though making Possess ability itself the criteria to separate normal units from nested incarnates seems like an easier and more solid solution to me. Unless you remember you guys tried this and there was something seriously wrong with this approach

That is correct. We solved our cluster*bliep* by adding the 'drain will thing'.

Your option 1 should work just fine.
The only reason not to do it like that is because it might not be clear to the Player.

Then again, as soon as people start hanging out in places where they can get these patches, they should be informed enough to cope.
Adding it in the tooltip will also alleviate that issue somewhat.

Edit:
Another thing you might want to have a look at before removing the implicit 'Drain Will Immunity' from 'Drain Will' is what happens with 'Dominate', etc.
IIRC all units with abilities like that also have 'Drain Will'. Problem here is what happens to a Dominated unit when the Dominator is Dominated : D>

Looks like this is more a matter of desired behavior and clarity to the Player, then something that'll trigger a bugstorm (no guarantees here though).

[This message has been edited by sikbok (edited 07-29-2011 @ 05:18 AM).]

Hmm, dominating dominators is an interesting question indeed. And in fact, the possibility to encounter this has always been presented in the game: a hero with Dominate artifact is a perfect target for being dominated, and even Sphinx doesn't have Drain will (and therefore protection from it) until reaching the silver medal rank. That's odd no one ever mentioned this...

It would make sense to make units with Dominate completely immune to domination, but the real confusion starts when we remember there are another mind-control abilities. And if dominating dominator and seducing seducer look somewhat weird (though the last one should probably result in both units dropping out from the battle for a while ), seducing dominator (and vice versa) sounds perfectly normal. So we have to deal with this chain controlling issue anyway...

[This message has been edited by HellBrick (edited 07-29-2011 @ 06:12 AM).]

Quoted from sikbok:

what happens to a Dominated unit when the Dominator is Dominated

The dominated unit of the dominator is dominated, too then.
It correctly works that way ingame.

Quoted from Hellbrick:

It would make sense to make units with Dominate completely immune to domination, but the real confusion starts when we remember there are another mind-control abilities. And if dominating dominator and seducing seducer look somewhat weird

There is no confusion at all. If a dominator, who just dominated other units in a current battle gets dominated by another dominator, he and his once dominated victim are both dominated, by that other dominator now.
However, i agree possessed should protect from drain will, possess, dominate and seduce. And incarnates should not possess themselves. That might look prolly awkward.

>ou can just mask drainwill with an ability like "clarity" used in the strange land mod, it works like drain will just not as an active ability and only to protect against drain will.(possibly all mind control attacks as well)

The dominated unit of the dominator is dominated, too then.
It correctly works that way ingame.

Ah, good. I kinda like when things resolve this way =)

Has anyone else been having this issue:

Units hit for more damage than they have the potential for?

I am consistently getting units with 6 damage hitting for 8,9, etc. Even when the target has no weaknesses.

Cheers

Uh... o_O And you're sure it's not Death strike + Curse combo?

Or charge, polearm, mighty meek...

Nope. Hellhound with 6 damage doing 9 on a unit without weaknesses. Then doing 8. Rune master with 9 damage doing 11 to units without weaknesses.