I remember stranger saying awhile back anyone may make a mod of dwiggs if they want, the specifics of which have never been specified.

But I have already talked to stranger in private too. Asking him about some of these things, I haven't really gotten a reply. But it wouldn't be the first time I've talked him about it either, hes had plenty of time to register complaint & suggestion.

Look kaskoid, dwiggs isn't a religion and your not its faithful paladin protector. Anyways I never see you in online games, and for PBEM games if you play them, you can easily warn who ever your playing with that anything I make is "not official". For single player games you can just pick what ever.

But I want to make a faster better version of dwiggs that more people will want to play more often. You have no say in that.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 07-13-2008 @ 03:50 AM).]

As for all of these "others" who say the game is too slow; OK, its not Nintendo or PS3. I have a gut feeling that you think it runs too slow, have found a couple of others that have made similar comments, and now feel that you are the one anointed to fix a "problem" that exists only in your mind. If it were such a widely held belief, I would have expected to see a lot more chatter about it on this thread from others besides yourself.

Actually you have completely misunderstood the situation, Kaskoid, and you are unfairly denigrating TP in this instance. TP is at Gamespy every day, trying to encourage people to play dwiggs, and is regularly being told by the other online players that dwiggs takes too long, and they want to play MP1.7 because the games are (relatively) much quicker. He insists that it isn't too slow, but that doesn't help him get any games.

There was an enormous amount of discussion during the Dwiggs 5 beta stage of the new skills system, and how it slowed the game down too much for online play, but both Stranger and Timelord were adamant that it wouldn't be changed. It wasn't the range of archers that was considered to be slowing the game down, incidentally.

As regards TP doing a faster version of "Dwiggs", this is generally considered by the online community at Gamespy to be a complete waste of time and effort, but TP doesn't actually listen to what other people say. We have tried to let TP know gently that we are quite content playing CoMA or MP1.7, but if TP wants to invest enormous amounts of time and energy only to find that nobody will play the new version, that is TP's choice. Let's hope that TP will be less critical and nit-picking of other people's mod-making efforts in the future, if and when it becomes clear to TP just how much effort needs to be invested in order to come up with a working product. So there may be some positive outcome, although not necessarily the one that TP was anticipating...

Believe it or not roger, you do not speak for most of the online community. Most people I have described this idea to have been interested once I explain it further. noncommittal of course, but not telling me I'm wasting my time either.

Heres a more basic bug, tigran fire priest gets acid breath at gold instead of fire. This is most likely because acid breath replaces fire breath and for fire its left to flame throwing. But this unit wasn't updated to reflect this.

On a related note, acid breath still graphically looks like flame throwing. But maybe its because it was coming from the fire priest? I don't think that makes a difference though.

havenīt been to this thread for quite some time and had actually hoped to find some answers to a current problem...
Instead of answers (I didnīt read all though) I found this recent ...argument... here which makes me a little nervous since, honestly, I havenīt yet played any map with Dwiggs yet but what you are basically saying is, that itīs too slow for fun-gameplay (multiplayer) ??

Iīm asking because Iīd like to avoid spending a lot of time in a map that nobody would play later on īcause itīs unplayable...

Any more comments from people who have enough Dwiggs experience regarding slow gameplay would be more than welcome!!

Is this a general Mod-problem or has it something to do with Dwiggs?
What about BNW ?

Regarding the slow gameplay -

Roger is probably right (probably => I haven't played online in recent months and what online games I did play was with Stranger to test few things out before 5.0 came out; it doesn't imply I disagree )
The core gameplay in Dwiggs was slower than vanilla SM or MP mod to begin with. With the modifications to the skill system, the game might have become slower (or it might have to do with players not adapting to the changes - I know, I'll be burned at the stake for this!).

For PBEM or SP, I don't think it matters but for online gaming, it certainly can be an issue as games are usually expected to finish in one evening (3-4 hours) and Dwiggs games take longer - especially with more players, the time increases even more than with MP. Again, this may not be true in every case, as the players determine the outcome but it can be considered a generic scenario.

Regarding range reduction -

Reducing range would not speed up the game, IMO, as this would just mean that you need higher level units for defense (where, previously, you could use lvl 1s built in villages). Secondly, reducing range has a far-reaching consequence in balance since certain races that depend heavily on range - Elves, Fey, Halflings - would be seriously crippled and other races would have to be revisited too.
This doesn't mean that TP cannot make changes and release his own mod on top of Dwiggs. He is welcome to try that

As far as the 'official' (or however you want to put it) Dwiggs mod goes, there will be one final patch including some fixes that Gandalf pointed out after 5.0 came out along with the other ILB fixes and a Readme and that's it.
After UPatch 1.5 comes out, Dwiggs may be adapted to include all the new content in it but that's not decided either (I am looking forward to a lot of games being released later this year and next year; so, no guarantees!)

(Beware - off-topic post!)

Greetings from Egypt; I'm sitting in front of the American University in Cairo; it's damn hot at daytime, so most social events take place place at late afternoon or after the sun goes down.
I see that the debate climate hasn't changed /that/ much in here, and for obvious reasons. Once I get back to Denmark I might have a go at a couple of online games if we can find the right players...Hope you guys are enjoying the summer holidays

Quoted from timelord:

Reducing range would not speed up the game, IMO, as this would just mean that you need higher level units for defense

This does not compute on several levels. Why would you need higher levels for defense? Please keep in mind most all range units will be boosted(especially pure range units that rely soley on the range)

Also keep in mind, some complain that fea are overpowered now.(mostly "know it all" lev, but others have suggested it too)

Ok lets for the moment I accept your premise (which I don't) How would needing higher level units for defense slow down the game?

Timelord what about some of the issues I pointed out? Like with fire priests acid breath that looks like flames, at gold? Another issue is heroes who start out with MM3 and are clearly range heroes stat wise and such. Even graphically come with a bow, but can start with no range at all!(and can go awhile without getting it)

Perhaps you could provide the documentation for us to see and make sure nothing was missed?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 07-14-2008 @ 04:13 PM).]

havenīt been to this thread for quite some time and had actually hoped to find some answers to a current problem...
Instead of answers (I didnīt read all though) I found this recent ...argument... here which makes me a little nervous since, honestly, I havenīt yet played any map with Dwiggs yet but what you are basically saying is, that itīs too slow for fun-gameplay (multiplayer) ??

Iīm asking because Iīd like to avoid spending a lot of time in a map that nobody would play later on īcause itīs unplayable...

Any more comments from people who have enough Dwiggs experience regarding slow gameplay would be more than welcome!!

Is this a general Mod-problem or has it something to do with Dwiggs?
What about BNW ?

There are a few points here, Morgul:

1)Dwiggs is a brilliant mod for SP or for email games, as is BNW, but at Gamespy we play with people we don't really know and that we can't necessarily trust not to check out the save if a game needs to be continued at a later date.

2) We very rarely play custom maps at Gamespy, it's virtually always a random map.

3) One of the things I've noticed is that people who frequent Gamespy will often have their mods played there, if they stop coming to Gamespy people often stop playing those mods there.

4) In my opinion it's virtually impossible to have a good SP map that is also suitable for online play, for balancing reasons.

5) There are far more SP games played than anything else, next is email games, and then bottom of the list of popularity comes online games. So the fact that a custom map won't be played by people at Gamespy makes very little difference to how successful it will be.

So please go for it, I'm really looking forward to another dwiggs map being released!

Hi Gandalf, good to see you. Egypt eh? u lucky bugger.

Im happy with truepurple making his own mod, i'd even maybe test the final product but i am happy with timelord tweaking strangers mod. Having said that i really wouldnt want truepurple to take over stragers dwigg mod, I have way too many disagreements with him in gs that turn into profainity on my behalf.

Luna Park

Hi Roger,

We will certainly continue working on the map - way too much work has already been spent on it
I was only wondering, if it might make sense to switch to BNW (it would mean some effort but I think it would be possible although I donīt like tthe idea of spending extra-work)

After posting my point yesterday, I thought exactly of what you guys are mentioning here now: That a giant, completely filled with tons of events 3-Level map would probably not suit for multiplay (online) as you would have to play maybe 10 sessions until itīs finished... I hadnīt thought about that earlier

So I think, it will become more a pbem map, which could take 2-3 years (taken average game-speed into account when 4-6 people play it )
which is also a nice thing

M

Hi Roger,

We will certainly continue working on the map - way too much work has already been spent on it!!!
I was only wondering, if it might make sense to switch to BNW (it would mean some effort but I think it would be possible although I donīt like tthe idea of spending extra-work)

After posting my point yesterday, I thought exactly of what you guys are mentioning here now: That a giant, completely filled with tons of events 3-Level map would probably not suit for multiplay (online) as you would have to play maybe 10 sessions until itīs finished... I hadnīt thought about that earlier

So I think, it will become more a pbem map, which could take 2-3 years (taken average game-speed into account when 4-6 people play it )
which is also a nice thing!

M

Well I wouldnt mind playing it onlike dwiggs. But I might have trouble finding other people willing to play too, many arent too keen on continues which a complex map would require. Especially continues with many people, since it requires everyone else to be on at the same time and not start a game.

But no, please keep it dwiggs, dwiggs works just as well for single player and PBEM too.

I had a thought about goblins, before I came up with the idea of making them mud immune, but then the issue of what ability could be used to mask mud.

What instead of we gave them mud as a trait and make them faster to compensate (so it figured out to be the same speed, or nearly, in the end) Then they should be immune to the mud because they already have it. Thats a number of presumptions that would need to be tested of course.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 07-20-2008 @ 05:27 AM).]

TruePurple, maybe you shouldn't recruit players for such an online custom dwiggs game not in the usual online player pool, as they prefer to play just short and some sort of rush games.

I can imagine that some of the players which are playing PBEM or maybe single scenarios are willing to join such a longer online game, which has to be continued later. I love to play online, but no rush games on random maps, only if it's not avoidable, because they are boring most of the time. I like long and developing games, especially on custom maps very much and it is no problem for me to continue a game on a later date. I even have no problem to play all combats tactical. I would love to play a game like this. I hate the time limits on the rounds, so no problem for me and maybe some other players think in a similar way. If you would like to play in such a style, I'm your man.

Edit--> Typo

[This message has been edited by Albaron (edited 07-20-2008 @ 08:32 AM).]

I totally agree Albaron!
As soon as this map is finished, the time that is no longer used to work on it could and SHOULD! be spent on playing it! (we have to do that anyhow before we release it )
I also think that enough people here in the community know eachother long and good enough that some of such groups could come up and play an online game over various sessions!

I couldn't agree more with Albaron and morgul666; Short, "rush" games online are boring. I have no problem whatsoever with starting an online game in which we only got together every other week or so to play.
AoWSM has too many subtleties and refinements to be fully enjoyed in rush games. In a good SP game (like the Underdark dwiggs I'm playing now), I try to milk the scenario for all it is worth, setting as my goal total map domination in place of "find the wiz and kill him" games. For one thing, I really like building armies of all gold medals. Right now I have a 16th lvl Hero that flies stacked with three gold-medal demons and three gold medal succubi, topped off with a gold medal red dragon. It took a lot of fighting to get that stack to its near-invincible state; I still lost a 4th demon after he made gold. Another favorite tactic is building Storm Priests with a Temple of War, then bringing them on to gold to become Power Relays. What wonderful new conquest strategies that makes with a Storm Priest or Sorceress as Relay out from under the umbrella of you towers. In Underdark, with its severe city limitations, it is imperative; but in a rush game, nearly impossible to achieve.

Quoted from Albaron:

as they prefer to play just short and some sort of rush games.

1st thing is that you speak rubbish, second is that Iīve never seen you at gamespy lobby

When ladder died, games turned to long games +50 turns minimum, not counting restarts cause overlap. Mods like dwiggs were commonly played in last years, I remember many games which took 150 turns, with Air Warlord at least

But every1 has right to play 2-5y PBEM XL games, which would end online in 2 days, I just canīt see the point.

Thereīs some ppl who prefer 2 min turns in game and some who prefer 3 min turns simultanous. Also Lev9 told some time ago bout russian community who played with classical turns.

Tactical Combat always on is used on some mods. Also itīs just matter of vote, if they want TC always, but usually itīs not used. Tho it decrease the luck element of game, but wastes a lot time, since there can be lag in online games and mostly after battles or after the turn ends. Tactical Combat is used versus human players always.

Prolly all forumers are highly educated and doing 10 hours work per day + members of a scientology party, which has meetings with UFOs at nights. Or they just got fear-mode on, since they canīt seem to figure out how to get in Gamespy.

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 08-09-2008 @ 02:30 PM).]

Quoted from Munataros:

1st thing is that you speak rubbish, second is that Iīve never seen you at gamespy lobby

Sorry, when I have offended you herewith, but when I have visited gamespy over 3 years ago sometimes, either nobody was around or answered me on my questions to play a game. So I decided to arrange some online games via the-battlefield and all games I have played there were rush games on random maps, which are nice for a short time, but get soon boring. I stopped playing online then and started to play more PBEM, especially on custom maps.

Quoted from Munataros:

When ladder died, games turned to long games +50 turns minimum, not counting restarts cause overlap. Mods like dwiggs were commonly played in last years, I remember many games which took 150 turns, with Air Warlord at least

Nice to hear that it has changed and that makes it more interesting to try a visit at gamespy. But I'm afraid you still play random maps with turn time limits, which I dislike. Another problem is mentioned by you: 3 Years ago I was unemployed and had a lot of time, but times change and luckily I'm on work again and therefore I have not much time to play. This leads to a selection, what and when I would like to play. My choice is then:

Long epic games, with tactical combat always on if possible and without a short time limit. Possibly with mods on cutom maps and to play maybe one time a week or after arrangement.

This was what I tried to communicate, maybe not as precise at it should have been. I'm very sorry, if I were totally mistaken about the online community here and at gamespy.

No worries at all, just tried to get some discussion going

When we play 8 ppl XL random maps, (which is rare) itīs mostly with 3-4 min turns, tho TC always is not really needed in random map and it would show ppl what you are doing and where .

Thereīs some interest to custom maps too, tho they havenīt been much played over the years, some of those may even need TC always to survive. Athendorre II looked nice.

Games usually start between 9pm and 3am GMT, when new US players log in, although some turtles hang there 24/7.

Dwiggs can be resurrected too, if some veterans wake up.

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 08-11-2008 @ 12:46 PM).]

There was an element to the online game which especially involved the Battlefield and playing ladder games, and these games did tend to be played over-aggressively and cheesily by people whose only intention seemed to be to win at all costs, regardless of what exploits they had to use. Fortunately most of those people seem to have moved on, and people don't play ladder games now, so the games tend to be a little more civilised.

However there are still one or two players at Gamespy who are still a bit that way, and so some people will quit under a variety of situations, and give a variety of explanations, but essentially it is usually because they had a bad start, or someone else had a much better start than them. Sadly they can't see the irony in them wanting to solely play random maps, and never play custom maps, yet they don't like like it when they are randomly given a poor start. If they played custom maps, it would be much fairer in terms of distribution of resources.

Regarding playing with turn time limits, it very much depends who you are playing against. I am happy, for example, to play BNW3 with TC always and no turn time limits, PROVIDING that I am playing against Kirky Picardo and Megamanx, for example, who always end turns without undue messing about. If I had some of the Gamespy regulars in a game, such as True Purple or Karfhud, there is no way that I would agree to playing without turn time limits, as when we play with 3 minute turns then, after about day 5, they will never actually end their turns before the three minutes is up. This means that a game that should take four hours will actually take six hours, mainly due to their lack of consideration for the other players. Also some people (especially Americans) seem to assume that the whole world is in their time zone, and don't take into account that for the European players it is the early hours of the morning and there is an element of urgency to finishing the game.

That is why I have come to the conclusion that it would be nice to find a few players that would like to play custom maps, people that are fun to play against, aren't intent on winning at all costs and don't quit when they aren't doing very well, and where we can reload a map at a later date without fear of them having cheated by opening up the map. Most of the players that fit into that category don't seem to come to Gamespy any more. Examples would be Kirky Picardo, Oakbow, Stranger, Joepo, Jomungur, Sim Rogar, IgorT, Swolte, Karfhud.

But I aplogise, this thread is supposed to be about Dwiggs mod, not about the trials and tribulations of online gaming, so we seem to have gone slightly off-topic.

This is nice to hear and I try to remember, when I have time on a friday evening, which is unfortunately very rare.

My wife is not very amused if I play AOW all the scarce spare time. We'll see and maybe we'll meet at gamespy.

The thing with PBEM is easier, because you can play when you have time and even have a short break in playing the turns, which is not very enjoyable for the other participants in an online game.

Sorry to going off topic now and we will stop this here.

[This message has been edited by Albaron (edited 08-11-2008 @ 12:57 PM).]

Nvm off-topic Swolteacher is afk for a week

Another problem in online is ppls connection, particularly with routers. Now some have mobile conns, which seem not work properly either.

TL working on dwiggs atm?

Haha, am back, so yeppers, let us keep on topic or create another thread from now on, plz.

Could any of you email me, or post here your top 5 favourite heroes from Dwiggs? Please take description (concept) and animation into account. If you have reasons, that is great, as I can weed out those which are liked based on situational affect (e.g., I like this hero because I won my best game w it). Don't worry about balancing for now.

We plan to include some in v15 for the standard library and request Stranger to use 'm. I am very impressed by some (at least the conceptual work!).

I wrote so many of them that I can't make an unbiased choice if I list any of them. But I'll try later.

I am unlikely to base my choice on their written description, what matters to me is how useful (or otherwise) a hero is when I'm playing, and particularly when I'm playing online.

Hi Swolte,

Do you know if Stranger plans another update to Dwiggs or is this the last?

Stranger doesnt even have aow installed on his PC any more. Hes left us.

my favorite hero is park stranger named him after me..its hard to say what other heroes are my fav.

Zane, Temperion, Magi the Blue, Will Wyrm Bane and Hector.

Reasons: All have unique graphics, animations and well-written descriptions....oh, and Temperion's after me, so he has to be the best among the lot

[This message has been edited by Timelord (edited 08-15-2008 @ 03:14 PM).]

My favorites are Romet/Yurdu, plus Indor from the newest version, based on their body graphics.

I like most (if not all) of the new Hero sprites (one of the most important facts is, that most of them are NOT mounted) but I greatly dislike, how many of these bodies have been assigned to the races... It was like a ten-ton hammer strike straight into my face when I saw, which unit body had been picked for the Dark elven Warrior for instance and it was in that very instant that I bitterly regretted having agreed to use Dwiggs 5.0 for our actual map-project (instead of the old Dwiggs Version 4.0..or was it 1.4...?) but a solution was there: To re-assign almost all of these hero-bodies to the races by creating an own mod out of Dwiggs 5.0...
I think, I have placed now already at least 10 different Undead Priests in the map, hehe