Quoted from Gandalf_DK:

Kinda spoils the game if everybody plays fey folk with conqueror and water specialist...

But they don't...

Quoted from Air:

Gandalf did u ever try to mass faery dragons in dwiggs? maybe gaming quality is increased during months i m absent, but I cant remember any successful faery drag massing during time I played dwiggs

Me neither

[This message has been edited by RogerRabid (edited 09-19-2007 @ 11:46 AM).]

Just the ones full of themselves and their expert AoW knowledge do that RR. The failure of personality and decency behind those who put others down like that is irrelevant RR.

Edited out because was off topic

[This message has been edited by Merkraad (edited 09-18-2007 @ 08:30 PM).]

Edited - off topic

[This message has been edited by RogerRabid (edited 09-19-2007 @ 11:47 AM).]

Hi Air.

I should have said I am referring to the GS version of Dwiggs 1.4 that Merkraad made. In this version, fey dragon hatchlings ALWAYS mature to fairy dragons; in earlier versions of dwiggs afaik they became a "random" dragon. Griff was (trying to) mass them in last game, he had 2-3 of them and would get more as game progressed, it seems feasable in that mod.

I looked at taunt in the editor. In Dwiggs 1.4 GS and in the MP mods, and presumably also upatch 1.4 taunt is damage type 'magic' and magic only, so TP must be right that magic immunity blocks taunt. I always assumed it was a kind of 'physical' attack, but I guess anything labelled as physical will be calculated against defense, and making it 'magic'
causes it to go against resistance, and of course, to be useless against magic immune units I assume the solution could be to give taunt fire/poison/death/holy etc. attack too, but I don't think it's a problem (like DG); I have no problem with magic immune units being immune to taunt - but it's good to know - and underscores the strength of the fairy dragons.

Swolte: Is TP's posts the kind of tone you want in this thread? If others pick it up, it will get really ugly.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-18-2007 @ 05:32 PM).]

In regards to moderating the thread, I try and do it to save Swolte the trouble. But, as most people are are quite reasonable, I rely on all of us to keep the tone civil.

So, if a comment seems out of line or out of the blue, I suggest:

1) we let it lie; it's designed to provoke us, and we allow it succeed if we get upset (I know, I know!! I've blown up a few times myself, so I'm not saying it's easy! )

2) Email myself or Swolte so that we can contact the poster and discuss the nature of their comments.

Otherwise we go nowhere, even if what we write is true or accurate. Those being referred to will see it as unfair aggression and, perhaps, to a certain extent it is.

Let me just say, though, that lashing out at people HERE, even if they have mistreated you SOMEWHERE ELSE, is inappropriate. Lets keep the comments in this thread devoted making the mod better/more fun rather than personality clashes.

Thank you everyone, and feel free to remind me if I fail to live up my lofty tone

In regards to Taunt, I think making attack all res based abilities (fire, etc) as well as magic, following Gandalf and TP's suggestions, is the best way to go. Are there any issues that might arise from doing this that I'm unaware of?

I also wanted to write how cool it is that when I looked up at the addresses for the last several posters I saw: Russia, Denmark, England, Brasil, New Zealand, USA. How long ago was it that someone who ventured over to the neighboring village was considered an international expert? We live in wide open times, for sure.

Sorry, I was lashing out a bit. Was unnecessary. Sorta wrong target too. From a incident between me gandalf & merkraad in a game the night before. Moving on..

In regards to Taunt, I think making attack all res based abilities (fire, etc) as well as magic, following Gandalf and TP's suggestions, is the best way to go. Are there any issues that might arise from doing this that I'm unaware of?

Well chaos lords(will drained, assuming magic immune doesn't make you immune to that too) and chaos spawns would remain immune to taunt.

Also Syron the unit which I mentioned before as too powerful. You never did respond to that stranger and its not just a minor too powerful. But then you could strip off a immunity or two from it and that would help alot. (like magic immunity I think) And/or not allow it to be a summonable. Since it can be a bit more powerful if its a rarity.

P.S. Stranger it wasn't "designed" to do anything.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-18-2007 @ 06:55 PM).]

@ Stranger: thanks for the moderation, though I also sent an e-mail to Swolte previously to that
Good luck on the Mod and forums, goodbye

[This message has been edited by Merkraad (edited 09-18-2007 @ 08:36 PM).]

Hey Buddy,
When is the next version of Dwiggs due out? How about strengthening walls/gates by 50%? It has allways been a pet peeve that a couple weak lvl 1 units can hack down a city gate in 2 turns.
Also, make sure you get Gepro's suggestions for goblins. He refuses to play Dwiggs again till they are tougher, hehe.
Better yet, call the manufacturer and politely ask them to release the source code. They only stand to sell more of the game if good mods exist... they are behind the times, everyone else allows modding. That way we could change it so that you can have 8 categories of units in each stack, maybe up to a max of 32 units per stack. That would solve the biggest breakdown of the game... stack splitting.

Bigben34

Hi ben,

I delivered gepros requests for goblins. Others disagree about how weak or not gobs are.

Strengthened walls doesn't fit dwiggs so say the census.

Hi Ben and good to hear from you ,

I'm ready to release a test version of the mod as soon as I fix 7 0r 8 graphics (need to remove a little blue border from them).

I think the Goblins will be better; they're my favourite evil race, in fact, but I'm still open to any changes that would make 'em more interesting or useful.

About the walls, I agree with you in that I dislike seeing a wimpy swordsman bash one down so quickly, but I dislike seeing a town full of archers mow down a strong army too. I think any change to the walls would involve rebalancing other aspects of the mod, mainly ranged attacks.

In regards to the Syron, I haven't had any huge issues with it, but if some other players would confirm that it's causing balance problems, I'm happy to alter it. The main issue I see with it is that Liquid Form essentially makes it 60 hp unit. Perhaps it should have one weakness to go along with all its immunities.


BJ

Its immune to everything except physical, so your suggesting physical weakness stranger. I think it would suffice to take away a immunity or two. Its flavor text might need some changing too though.

All the immunities plus block makes range nearly impossible against it and melee is difficult because of the lighting strike (and the high attack[18] & decent damage[10]that will make mince meat of you).

Plus that simple liquid form is unbypassable on it. Not only does it cut damage in half. I'm not sure but I think it rounds down on odd numbers. So it reduces a little more then half damage.

It could possibly be made weaker in other ways but have phase. Not alot of walkers with that, that I can think of.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-19-2007 @ 00:25 AM).]

I think the Goblins will be better; they're my favourite evil race, in fact, but I'm still open to any changes that would make 'em more interesting or useful.

Well, this is probably not feseable but it shouldn't hurt to mention it. Imho, one of the coolest units in Dwiggs that we practically never get to use is...*drums*... the Dire Fungus. And I think it could be a perfect meaty friend for the Gobos. Imagine them living together in the dampness and filth of the underground in some kind of a symbiotic relationship. I can see the D. Fungus (or fungi in general) as being a very important part of Goblin society since, hypothetically, they use it as a renewable food source, they extract from it the poisons with which they coat their blades and darts, they might even use it as housing and the fungi grow and spread everywhere there in the underground so the Goblins have a saying, "Home is where your fungus is".

On the technical side, they could be built from the Filth Hole (makes sense, no?) but not necessarily (depending on their "power level"). They could be given 20 mov. to bring them up to speed with other "siege weapons" or stay as they are so you have to use a transport to move it effectively. Perhaps give them mark I on silver and entangle at gold and voila, it's perfect for holding positions or as support (if you can transport it).

I know adding a new unit is no minor change but I just though I'd throw it into the "suggestion box". I think it would definitely make Goblins more interesting.

Syron is too strong only in theory, as most common quest that gives syron spell is build wizard tower so u need to put too many things to rely on syrons and it can work in about 20% of games. For example I m sure TP never completed task of abusing syron's power and doesn't know how hard its to do We can remove poison immunity to decrease its power and check if anyone still will try to get syrons very hard

Baby dragon growing in tiny faery drag instead of mighty gold, black or red - is big downgrade, maybe army got in such way can bring big trouble to neighbor playing humans and so on, but once such army try to siege well defended cap - many dragons will die and there will be no way to get more dragons as most part of map would be cleaned from indies And same number of gold dragons are more dangerous I m sure

And about idea of making some skills mutually exclusive I think it can work if major skills (explorer, expander, constructor) will exclude each other. Stranger proposed scholar\explorer, but I think scholar is minor skill compared to explorer, so choice is too simple and even boring radical way is to let starting choice of explorer+conqueror, constructor+......seems it will be single , expander+peacekeeper, merchant+survivalist, scholar+channeler+summoner. Magic path also can get exclusive rights for warmage and enchanter But need to test if final result wont be more boring than simple researching every single skill :P

And we need to let dwarven helicopter be useful at last, by adding 3 hurl firebombs to 3 fire pistol it already has, while I think for 170 (or how exactly it costs) it can also get 3 fire xbow

Quoted from TP:

Also Syron the unit which I mentioned before as too powerful. You never did respond to that stranger and its not just a minor too powerful. But then you could strip off a immunity or two from it and that would help alot. (like magic immunity I think) And/or not allow it to be a summonable. Since it can be a bit more powerful if its a rarity.

They already are a rarity

Quoted from TP:

Its immune to everything except physical, so your suggesting physical weakness stranger.

That's not what it sounded like to me, it sounded to me as if Stranger would change one or two of it's immunities into weaknesses

Quoted from Air:

Syron is too strong only in theory, as most common quest that gives syron spell is build wizard tower so u need to put too many things to rely on syrons and it can work in about 20% of games. For example I m sure TP never completed task of abusing syron's power and doesn't know how hard its to do

I think the reason TP is whining so much about syrons is because I had one quite early in a game recently as a spirit reward, and I ended up winning the game because of that one unit. Then I was lucky enough to be given the summons in another game, and made a big stack of them, but because it wasn't early in the game it made far less difference to the outcome

Quoted from Air:

We can remove poison immunity to decrease its power and check if anyone still will try to get syrons very hard

Excellent suggestion!

Some good ideas in here

Jean Luc, I like the Dire Fungus idea. I would have to take Hurl Pestilence off the Goblin Tank, probably, so that the Fungus would have it's own special use, but the tank could be upraded in other ways. I like entangle on the fungus also..hadn't thought of that. Other readers, weigh in!

Air, I'm glad you touched on the skill issue, as it's a fairly big change and one I would really like to see made. I would like it to be thematically consistent as well as significant in playability terms, so an explorer shouldn't be a stay at home builder, maybe, and and skulking survivalist shouldn't be a go out and get 'em expander. I really dislike coming to the close of a game and finding that everyone has all the same skills. Where's the strategy in that?

In regards to the Syron, TP, I think that maybe Air's suggestion of poison weakness or maybe another weakness would be better than physical. I really think that even though the units powerful, it's hard to get and costs a lot to summon. I've never seen more than 1, 2 in a game, though a skilled player could probably get more.

Roger, you posted about 10 seconds before I did ....I think that getting Syron early, as you did, is rare enough that's it's probably ok to make a minor tweek to the unitdn as both you Air suggest. You got it from a Magic Quest, I assume?

over and out,

bj

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-19-2007 @ 12:04 PM).]

Quoted from Stranger:

You got it from a Magic Quest, I assume?

Correct

First off accusing me of whinning is flamish. So cut it out please RR.

Quoted from RR:

as most common quest that gives syron spell is build wizard tower

AFAIK you can't tie a specific reward to a specific quest. If it only requires "hard" then it could be a number of things. Not just "build wizard tower" quests. Not that thats too hard if you have a built up enough town, and not that you don't get rewarded in other ways for having another wizard tower.

Quoted from RR:

They already are a rarity

If you can summon them for 400 gold,(not terribly expensive for a level 4 summon, 20 percent cheaper then a gold/black dragon summon, even cheaper with summoner) then they are not a rarity in that game.

Quoted from stranger:

In regards to the Syron, TP, I think that maybe Air's suggestion of poison weakness or maybe another weakness would be better than physical.

Stranger this is a example of you not listening close enough, so to speak. I never suggested physical weakness. I only suggested removing a immunity or two. (well plus my idea of making it a bit weaker still and adding phase, making it a rare phasing walking unit)

I like the idea of entangle on dire fungus. I honestly independently thought up the very same idea for it myself.(helps that the flavor text suggests it) And love the theme and slow movement on it in general. It fits for goblin theme but then dire fungus is very defensive in nature because of its really slow nature (hard to position it when attacking) Goblins aren't as much defensive in nature. I'd also hope they wouldn't lose either trolls. If they wouldn't then their racial would give 3 units.

I also personally don't like the goblin tanks theme/flavor text. I thought up a different idea for a goblin transport awhile back. If noone has the skill to make such a unit I'd still like to see some change in it. Even just flavor text change.

Concerning the wizard skills but on a bit of a different issue and I have mentioned this before...

Explorer & expander should not take two picks while constructor only takes one. Constructor in dwiggs is simply superior to either of those skills and a better pick if they were all equal. I've never ever seen anyone willing to take a negative just to start with explorer or expander in dwiggs (especially and then to miss out on starting with constructor)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-19-2007 @ 04:12 PM).]

Glad you approve Stranger.

Let me analyze the overlap between of functionality between the Tank and the Fungus a little since it did occur to me.

1. On one hand having two units with hurl pestilence might not be so bad because of their death damage component. Poison is the effect units most often have protection/immunity from (Undead, Dwarves, Lizards + many individual units) and some "death" in the Goblins' attacks could help them gain a little edge since they rely on poison so much which leaves them vulnerable against some of the aforementioned races/units (although they would still remain hopeless vs. Undead but at least it's status quo). And many races' units share abilities in a similar way like Elves with entangle or Frostlings with frost breath etc. The problem is that one might say, why build the probably more expensive D. Fungus when I can have the Tank with the same ability that also transports. The Fungus is kinda tougher but just that with a potential entangle later on might not be enough incentive. So one option might be to give the Fungus mark I right away so that its pestilence is stronger, possibly with mark II at silver and entangle at gold. This way you still need the Tank for transporting but the Fungus' main attack is stronger + it has more abilities which makes it better as a fighting unit. Although this way the price of the Fungus would need to go up because of its increased power.

2. Or, as you said, change the Tank. But the problem is, how? Fire breath/bomb don't seam to be the goblin stile and being able to burn/poison/curse all at once with the Fungus + Tank combo might be too much. You could just give it Steam and Gas Breath for example but poison seams overdone and it makes the Goblin shaman totally obsolete. Black javelin might work (like that of the Shreder Bolt) but it's not nearly as good vs. units on walls as the aoe effects. The best potential solution that occurred to me was a steam + black breath combo for the Tank. The story behind it would be simple: Goblins, being the filthy buggers that they are, construct these crude versions of the steam tank but without any regard for the safety/environment issues so the Tank emits a lot of pollution and deadly fumes that the Tank crew is able to direct in the general direction of their enemies who become weakened and more prone to other malicious effects (thus the "curse"). The same rationalization could be applied to gas breath (in fact it would probably make more sense) but with a small "stretch" black breath makes sense too and Gobos get their different type of attack + the b. breath really looks like smoke from an exhaust pipe.

ps: Just saw TP's post. I wouldn't want any of the Trolls taken out either. Frostlings have 2 lvl 4 units (Doom Wolf & Frost Giant) and I seriously don't mind Goblins having 3 units in their racial building. D. Fungus would be a fun alternative an not op imo (if done right) and no one would be forced to build it. Movement issue could be overcome with transports and hurl pestilence has a long range and is an aoe effect so the DF doesn't really need to move much or position itself for a clear shot. Incidentally it's movement could be increased to let's say 20. A bit of a flavor stretch but it could work. It could be said that the D. Fungus has a special "militant" role withing fungal colonies and has evolved to posses limited movement. I believe that corals have a similar setup. Corals in the middle propagate the species through budding while the ones on the edge are equipped with poison stingers and they literally "wage war" with other coral colonies over reef territory as they all attempt to expand so they're kinda divided into "civilian"/"military" roles. Fungi could work under a similar principle.

Sorry if this was too long.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-19-2007 @ 04:05 PM).]

It would require a different graphic which may or may not be feasible but here was an idea I came up for a goblin transport Goblin war machine

If the graphics can't be made for what ever reason, there are still a number of usable ideas in it.

To add or alter the idea (since it was made some time ago) it could have poison breath like you suggest. Could assume they have like noxious poisonious waste on board they can throw at people (which spreads out, breath like) but only so many uses maybe. But maybe not cannon like I suggested there.(that idea it was designed with it being higher level in mind, and it was some time ago and not made with dwiggs in mind)

Regardless a goblin transport IMO should be more offensive then defensive. They should not be dwarven in theme at all.

Especially not with aweful flavor text about some dwarf who becomes "easy" and does it with a bunch of disgusting dwarven enemies (goblins, which would be like suggesting a human would do it with a giant squid or something) in some kind of orgy (well implied I think) because she got drunk.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-19-2007 @ 04:09 PM).]

Quoted from RR:
as most common quest that gives syron spell is build wizard tower

TP this is a[n] example of you not listening close[ly] enough, so to speak. I have never made that statement that you have attributed to me

Quoted from RR:
They already are a rarity

Quoted from TP:

If you can summon them for 400 gold,(not terribly expensive for a level 4 summon, 20 percent cheaper then a gold/black dragon summon, even cheaper with summoner) then they are not a rarity in that game.

Whether seeing a syron in a game is a rarity has nothing to do with that. The reason it is a rarity is because it is not a buildable unit, and it is not a unit than can be purchased at recruitment sites AFAIK. It's rarity is due to the fact that it can only be obtained as a spirit reward. I happen to build that type of shrine quite frequently, that's why I sometimes have them, but (as Air correctly pointed out) they are quite rare

Btw i never suggested poison weakness on syron, just no poison immunity as its not pure magic

Stranger, I still think if u start to change skill system - u must do it more complex, as simple choice constructor or explorer wont work, because constructor in combination with expander and merchant gives much stronger result than explorer +merchant+expander, so if u want variety u need to break most reliable skill combos or result will be only in annoying skill restrictions, but still all ppl will have same skill list- just more short . And expander is major skill compared to survivalist, unless u play goblins or halflings, but seems u couldn't often see expander in skills list for goblin or halfling players anyway And I think in case u will complete this idea - all positive skills must cost 1 point, it will only help to see more variety

I like idea of fungus too! Though not sure we need to touch goblin tank because of it. I strongly dislike idea of any short range weapon like flame throwing on it, as it works on dwarven tank very poor. Maybe fire pistol, but hurl pestilence still seems better. Btw dwarven tank can get hurl boulder at least to be useful as siege machine

To bad there isn't some kind of a ground based ram-like ability that does phys/wall damage. Would be cool if the steam tank could "run over" units and crash through gates with its massive armoured bulk.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-19-2007 @ 09:43 PM).]

The ram disappears temporarily during combat in a block situation

I think DE are plenty powerful enough.. mostly. The lightning immunity part won't make them overpowered either I think. (especially if chain lightning is moved to water )

But one unit at least needs a bit of improving. Great spider. 6 def and 6 resist on a level 3 that costs 170 gold & requires 3 turn(without rush/order but with master guild)to make is almost a joke. Also it should have animal type. I mean the spider spawns it makes/comes from are animal type. So why should great spider be different?

For great spider
8 DEF (its got a tough exoskelton)
maybe 11-12 RES (most DE have high resist except doom bat and that will help with the animal type a bit)
Animal type.
36mp (its fast on 8 legs, and same as queen)

*edited in*
Alternatively we could keep their speed the same 32 mp but give (both baby and great spiders) forestry, concealment, & UG concealment.

For Executionar:
Death strike at start or silver. This is important to their theme of being masters of death. Maybe they would need to be arranged differently to keep their power reasonable.. thats fine

*edit in*
Specifically we could have them get death strike @ start. Dark gift and death protection @silver & lightning strike at gold. Perhaps death immunity too.

Reitterating,
For Boreal Sphere:
32mp instead of 36mp (to be able to travel that fast over anything that cheap can be very powerful indeed, ive easily rushed a few people with them)

Regarding the spy unit.
I mentioned this before but a bit of a reminder.

I'd like to see spy with concealments of all sorts of terrain types. (verses invisibility since it still couldn't hide on mountains or water)

Upgrade to vision at silver, true sight at gold. This would make it more of a true spy, and true to its name. If its combat abilities need to be nerfed any for this, thats fine.

Human thief unit:
UG concealment. It being well versed in hiding out ug from the powers that be. And thief could use it to mug people ug (well kill, but I'm being flavorful ) And steal structures and stuff.

Humans in general:
No +2 resistance from special structure:
True racial construction bonus equal to orcs.

Oh and of course lightning strike for storm mage. Just because they're racial structure won't give it doesn't mean storm mage shouldn't have it.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-20-2007 @ 01:05 PM).]

TP its insanity what u are writing, animal is one of the worst penalty that ever can be on unit! seems only u can ever get idea to produce expensive animal unit and after most part of your army will be stolen - fall in deep surprise and silver executioner already have some chance to kill even lev4 unit if it hasn't lightning immunity, so yes lets make it even more stronger and then will write here how unfair it became and propose to add them 3-4 weaknesses and about frostie transport lets check: shardbearer 28 moves, mammoth,yeti,frost boar 32, giant, shikari,frost queen 30. yes, 32 movement transport its the thing they can only dream about! seems next time u will propose transports that are slower than units itself though I agree about storm mage, missing lightning strike and lightning strike sound for its melee strikes seemed like a mistake

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 09-20-2007 @ 06:14 AM).]

Could animal + willpower work for the Great Spider? Doom Wolf has (or at least did in the vanilla SM) that combo. Although the Spider might be somewhat intelligent (like Shelob) and thus above the simple animal mentality. Nowhere near the Queen though. And yes, lightning strike for the Mage of Storms please, if he can hurl it, he can hold it in his hands and strike stuff with it too. :P

Oh and Stranger, I thought the D. Fungus could use willpower too. A dominated Fungus just doesn't feel right.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-20-2007 @ 08:39 AM).]

Hi Stranger.

I have a file labelled DM1.4.xls, which gives a huge amount of excellent information on dwiggs units, wizard stats, spells etc. etc. It must have been a HUGE job to write down all this,
but I'm still going to ask....will this file be updated with the new stats that will be found in your new update? That would be great - but on the other hand I understand if you (or whoever assists you) don't have the time for it.

If such an updated list is made, I suggest it includes a listing of what spirit rewards are available for easy/average/hard quests from the different spirits.

BTW, I like the idea of the dire fungus for the goblins, maybe it could replace the bridge trolls? (those really suck!).

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-20-2007 @ 10:37 AM).]

I don't think the giant spider should be an animal, seems odd to say it needs strengthening and then give it a big weakness. The spider spawn are "free" and disposable units, and in a completely different league to their lvl3 parent, as they should be

Lightning strike seems logical and thematic for a storm mage