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Topic Subject: Stranger's Dwigg Mod
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posted 03-30-05 02:59 AM EDT (US)   
Dwiggs5.0 is available here:

http://aow2.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=612

Update 17-12-19 Joep and I are making an Age of Wonders 3 Dwiggs mod. If anyone is interested, just email me at bradjosse@gmail.com

Cheers!

In regards to Dwiggs mod, special thanks to:

El Joep-who did too much to list.

Timelord-again, too much to list.

Igoraki-converted many of the new graphics.

Merkraad-taught me the whole morphing thing

Kirky Picardo-maker of the excellent Brave New World mod. Like Timelord and Joep, he helped me too much to list just any one thing.

Kaskoid-Many of the excellent descriptions come from his desk.

Stillborn, Jean Luc, and many others also contributed some very creative descriptions. Look for the letter at the end of the description to see who wrote it.

If you wish to contact me, you can do so at bradjosse@gmail.com

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 12-16-2019 @ 08:19 PM).]

Replies:
posted 03-18-06 05:31 AM EDT (US)     931 / 2994  
its 0:30 for me, u want me to play whole night? maybe u will more early? :P
posted 03-18-06 09:31 AM EDT (US)     932 / 2994  
Air, just so you asked, I cancelled my evening plan.
I can be there at 8.30 PM GMT. Since you anyway play throughout the night whenever we play, it should be ok for you!!!

2009 1v1-Mapmaking Champion, Former PBEM Singles Champion, Proud contributor to the UPatch 1.4 and 1.5 effort
War of the Twins- 1 vs 1 PBEM map, Too Much Water - 1 vs 1 PBEM map, winner of 2009 1vs1 Mapmaking Challenge
My Dragon Age development blog
posted 03-18-06 03:12 PM EDT (US)     933 / 2994  
I notice with dwiggs the races feel more unique, but the units within the races feel more the same.

Some thoughts and ideas,
Avengers could lose fire immunity and death immunity (or at least downgraded to death protection) They could lose fire strike to start out with. Then at one medal they could gain fire strike and fire bolt, the other medal, holy bolts and turn undead 2. (maybe fire at silver and holy/undead2 at gold but visa versa could work too)

Titans could lose fire immunity to start out with, gain it on silver(but not fire strike), and gain lightning strike on gold. Lightning strike isn't as part of their element but as a way to represent the fact that their blows are so powerful they stun their targets. So there should be no problem with giving them lightning weakness at some point ever or just simply not giving them lightning prot or immun.

Thus avengers become the offensive jack of trades unit (at least with a gold medal) but with poor defenses (its important we strip them of their immunities) Paladins with their death immunity become the best units to absorb undead attack. Titans become shock melee troops, er so to speak Avengers good for attacking fire weak units. Titans good at attacking firey creatures.

As far as ents,
Trees (better name then treeman I think, they are just trees, not mutant tree/men) and shrubs would get grass concealment as well as the ents higher defense/lower resist profile. It would be nifty if the ents could help out or spawn the trees and shrub in some way. I was considering the possibility shrub-tree-ent at medals but then thought against it.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-18-2006 @ 04:33 PM).]

posted 03-18-06 04:28 PM EDT (US)     934 / 2994  
I personally wouldn't mind to see the Steam Tank be a lv.4 dwarf unit again... perhaps with transport VII?
posted 03-20-06 02:19 AM EDT (US)     935 / 2994  
I like steam engines as third level. Though fourth wouldn't be too bad either.


Ok some stuff,
Rangers blink on and off when attacking.
Evil hero drezda is "invisable"
Red halberdiers have both crusader and willpower, all crusader seems to be is another name for willpower.

The hero park is really sad, very few abilities + so so stats plus lightning weakness.

I found a path unit with 35 health. (id attach a picture but I don't know how)

One possibility is that the spell mayrter was cast, without showing, on a death nod, by the independents.

I did notice testing things that spells tended to mysteriously cast here and there. Like one game where I was testing evil woods, I had placed a party of saints and cast evil woods on them. Out of the blue the evil woods turned turned holy (well part of them) In these tests I also saw another spell cast out of noowhere on globel apparently by neutrals. Some life spell.

Also in my current game I found alot of units are "good" in recruitment. I've been to at least 4 recruitment structures (two dungeons, a tavern, can't remember what else) and all units were good but I was undead . Maybe its just chance but very bad odds it seems. Also it would be nice if you could raze recruiting structures like taverns, in case you spend a bunch of energy capturing it, only to find a unit you can't use, but don't want to fall into the hands of the enemy when their scout comes along or have to buy the unit only to disband it.


Oh also your watch tower looks interesting, one can't tell whos flagged it. Might be better to go back to the old one (which was decent, just like the new one, but the old one had a colored flag)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-20-2006 @ 05:23 AM).]

posted 03-20-06 04:14 PM EDT (US)     936 / 2994  
TruePurple---

Love that razing recruitment idea.

Can we decide to attack and kill some of that stuff? (Or, if razed, everything in it PLUS normal p-o'd units?) Not only would enemy not benefit, but you could suck up some exp. points as well.


Arch-Enemy of the Annoyingly Dense
Practitioner of Whimsy
Celt,Finn & Swede Elder Gamer
posted 03-20-06 05:07 PM EDT (US)     937 / 2994  
btw goblin war baloon requires masters guild and its really not better than human baloon that requires only builders hall, also all other transports from masters guild have transport7 so i think this baloon need to be with transpot7 or it must appear in siege workshop.

Demons seems terrible bugged : still no settlers, incarnate seems not worth 3 lev and 200 gold with present stats, flying demon that cost 240 have both cold and holy weakness and also not so great stats, hell hound appear in barracs and in warhall, demon heroes with cold and holy weakness seems worst among all evil heroes. why archon heroes have holy strike, holy immunity and good stats while demons pay 2 weaknesses for 2 immunities and 1 special strike? demon trasport with transport 3 is strange idea too

posted 03-20-06 08:36 PM EDT (US)     938 / 2994  
Goblin war balloon is fine the way it is, Air. C'mon, goblins? What mythology, including AoW, gives them credit for smarts?

Nasty weapons, foul poisons, loathesome beasts: those I grant you. Goblins are imitative, not innovative.

Please repeat after me:

"All races need not be mirror-equals."

Repeat as needed.

AoW is a great game because each of the races has a distinctive feel to them. If you want identical armies that are just colored differently, try Warlords.


Arch-Enemy of the Annoyingly Dense
Practitioner of Whimsy
Celt,Finn & Swede Elder Gamer
posted 03-20-06 08:51 PM EDT (US)     939 / 2994  
I have experienced first hand what i heard mention in another game, catapults attack is wrong, it blasts fairy dust instead of fire which is very very wrong (well maybe right for one or two races, with a catapult special for them and with an attack labeled and a unit priced right)

I wonder if dwarven catapults get the same fairy dust attack.

@kaskoid
Yes but there is already balance issues in dwiggs, finding match up points at least reduces the task of balancing a little.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-20-2006 @ 08:54 PM).]

posted 03-20-06 10:56 PM EDT (US)     940 / 2994  
Goblins are smart, when played under my rulership!

Honored Core Balance Team Member of UPatch 1.4
Also known as TirAsleen
Dwiggsvillain
posted 03-20-06 11:18 PM EDT (US)     941 / 2994  
DM---

So, you admit it? You have goblin DNA?

They can be intelligently ruled by a smarter life form (or possibly by an exemplar of their race)but left to their own devices would end up puny and despised, something to frighten children with at Halloween...lol.

I don't know about anyone else, but when I choose to play orcs or goblins, I do not choose to BE one to rule them. Far more fun to be Saruman sending out the hordes than Grummla exhorting his minions in orcish...


Arch-Enemy of the Annoyingly Dense
Practitioner of Whimsy
Celt,Finn & Swede Elder Gamer
posted 03-21-06 00:35 AM EDT (US)     942 / 2994  
True Purple,

the only Catapult that shoots Magical Fire is the Dwarven one. Thanks for the feedback on the Path, which is more or less a unit that got changed or removed but couldn't be deleted. So, I may have missed removing a few of these "path" units from structures and so forth. Let me know where you see them. I don't suppose you went over those evil woods with a path of life unit? Just curious... In regards to Park, he's pretty darn good hero, I thought. What, with pole arm and a warrior's stat level. However, he's probably not as good as he was in Dwigg 4.5. And, yes, the old tower will be the one generated by the rmg. This new one will be available to map makers.

Air, I don't have a problem with the Demon units, but they should have a builder and pioneer. I'll fix that.

Some of the recruiting stuff is not razeable...at least, I don't remember that it could be razed when I last went over the structures. I'll have another look, though.

regards,

BJ

posted 03-21-06 00:51 AM EDT (US)     943 / 2994  
Stranger u never played demons in mp so its the reason u dont have any problem with their units
posted 03-21-06 01:18 AM EDT (US)     944 / 2994  
I don't know, I don't remember if it was dwarven or not, I thought not. I do remember the description said fire type. Which should be corrected if its to remain that way. But that does seem somewhat wrong for dwarves. Assuming it is only dwarves.

Also earlier in a game a range attack that I'm pretty sure wasn't a dwarven catapult or even a reg catapult (i just cant remember) but that it paralyzed and stuff when it shouldn't have. I'll make special note of it next time it happens.

Stranger, theres alot of other stuff I posted some pages back, care to reply to any of it? I suppose you wouldn't want to play now?

Quote:

I don't suppose you went over those evil woods with a path of life unit?


Nop, these spells came out of nowhere, with some kind of spell graphic, If I remember correctly it was like the healing splash effect except on the map. It was really weird anyways.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-21-2006 @ 01:52 AM).]

posted 03-21-06 05:50 AM EDT (US)     945 / 2994  
animation of ent is like he has double strike, so why dont make it with double strike?
posted 03-21-06 09:47 AM EDT (US)     946 / 2994  

Quoted from Kaskoid:

So, you admit it? You have goblin DNA?

no i turned undead long ago, but life as little goblin was fun until i hit the "self destruct" button.


Honored Core Balance Team Member of UPatch 1.4
Also known as TirAsleen
Dwiggsvillain

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 03-21-2006 @ 09:48 AM).]

posted 03-21-06 11:40 PM EDT (US)     947 / 2994  
DM--

You just made my point for me. Thank You.


Arch-Enemy of the Annoyingly Dense
Practitioner of Whimsy
Celt,Finn & Swede Elder Gamer
posted 03-23-06 03:11 PM EDT (US)     948 / 2994  
A few notes: I've increased the cost of the Titan, as I don't want to reduce its quality, though I did lower the res a bit.

I've given the Undead Bone Horror 28 movepoints instead of 24. The Vampire now has 32 move points.

I've taken Holy Weakness off Demon heroes. I've also removed the hell hound from the builder's hall and given them a pioneer And, contrary to certain statements, I have played Demons several times online....

I've changed the Dwarven Catapult description.

I wanted to thank True Purple for his tests with the Titans and lower level units. I think it confirms what I had hoped: both lower level and higher level units are viable options in Dwiggs mod, depending on map and play conditions.

Holy Light is a flavour thing on the Avenger. It wears off after one turn. However, if I could make it last longer, I would...as this is a special unit that should have as many advantages against evil as possible.

Took Life Domain off Ents Though it's not quite pointless. If a unit is cursed, it won't regenerate. But I think units do heal with life domain...or am I wrong? On Ents, though, I think they are quite good units. 40 hitpoints and physical protection is nothing to sneeze at. As with all units, they can be countered, but I don't think they're weak. I have bumped up their defense because, as Mitch noted, it makes sense. I didn't give them double strike because I thought of them as a slow unit, and double strike is an ability for a fast, quick handed fighter. The animation is fixed, unfortunately.

I find that one way to rate the relative value of a unit for its cost is too see which units the ai prefers to build. In the single player games I've played, its favourite good units are Ents and Hafling Shire Adventurers.

As Humans have a growth and production bonus, plus some cheap, effective level two units, I don't think they require a gold bonus.

Does anyone think the Karagh is too strong for its cost?

I'm adding a few more buildable units to some of the races...post suggestions and why if you'd like to see something be buildable. I never saw an Azrac Avatar built in a 4.5 online game, for example, but wouldn't be opposed to returning it if I got some good reasons why....

Thanks for all the feedback. The two things I think that needs to be looked at are: quest infidels and rewards, and structure guards vs what you can get from them.

Regards,

BJ


posted 03-23-06 03:39 PM EDT (US)     949 / 2994  
Wrong approach with titans IMO, they were the units that were balanced with their lower level units. Well It was pretty close, I think the lower level units like avenger were still better to build then titans for many a purpose because of their excess abilities and immunities.

People criticise dwiggs for having level 3's and especially 4's not worth building. Don't make titans more expensive or weaker, they were only imbalanced compared to some other level 4's that are too weak

As I've repeated till I'm blue in the face, physical protection is not only something to sneeze at, but nearly laugh at, on a level 4 unit against human players. With so many many units having special attacks, and 3 enchantments giving special strike. That along with the weaknesses, especially to something as common place as fire, the slowness, the sorry attack & resistance without alot to balance that out. Such makes them a sorry unit. Noones going to build ents when most of the other elven units will do a much better job at nearly everything. Who even needs to bash down a wall when the ivory siren can just phase past it.

For the longest time before I even knew of dwiggs I have wished lower level units weren't so pathetic and not worth building, but dwiggs takes it too far to the other extreme. If you want this mod to be popular you should try reining that in just a little and make level 4's worth it.

My tests with titans only showed that was mostly not the case with titans, at that price. But you increased that price, so its unbalanced there too.

I mean otherwise players should get gold bonus for building champion guilds and such. (I'm not actually suggesting we do this, per say, just saying if gold bonuses would be the only reason many a player would build such structures, it would show a great unbalance of lower level units verses higher level ones)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-23-2006 @ 05:30 PM).]

posted 03-23-06 04:35 PM EDT (US)     950 / 2994  
Stranger u just were not in game when i and tom were both nomads and both were building azracs :P also its poor argument if u saw something or not, most part of 4.5 dwiggs players preferred team games so u couldnt see built units higher than lev2 often, so u saw infantry and shikarri for frostlings and barbarians and slavers for nomads most of the times which didnt mean frost giants and azracs are useless. azrac is very special unit with some immunities and resurgense, if u get them in some quantity time and with spells like liquid form u have chance to kill much bigger opponents lower lev army and also keep your azrac army, but if opponent will be smart and will notice what u are doing u wont get success which is interesting, without azracs nomads dont have reason to go directly for lev4 which isnt good way for this mod in almost all other cases.

ent already strike opponents 2 times and if its fast or not, he use both hands with double strike he can be interesting to be built and also not very strong because of million disadvantages he has.

karagh is too weak for its price i think, with 7 def its incredible vulnerable to ranged weapons as well as all other goblin units, if opponent will use this thing all price of karagh is waste of money

posted 03-23-06 05:28 PM EDT (US)     951 / 2994  
More testing, this time on orcs

Against a glutton..

At first I tried
4 ooze 1 abomination
2 warlord 1 abomination
4 heavy calvary 1 abomination.
All equaled 480 gold, the cost of a glutton.

None received EW for bypassing the gluttons physical protection. All won handly against the glutton and without barely a scratch.

Ok maybe the abominations entangling is causing this inequity. So I dismissed all abominations, now the groups are 400 against 480.

Heavy calvary kicked glutton ass, with only a occasional lose of a single unit. With EW (on glutton as well) all 4 survived regularly with most health.

Warlords regularly lost, but by only a hair of glutton health. Give those warlords EW (glutton as well) or a heavy calvary unit making them 500gold and they won relatively well regularly.

Now for the ooze, these didn't fair so well against the glutton, but it was hardly a landslid victory for the glutton either. Just a little better for the glutton then the two (unew'd) warlords. Add a (unew'd) heavy calvary unit to the mix and all 5 usually survived against the glutton.

Clearly the glutton is another level 4 not worth building. Especially since its even slower then an ent. We might need to add titans to that list too seeing as you increased their price.

Warlords only worth building maybe as town guards that give only a single leadership. (without upgrade at medal) Ooze only worth it in very specific circumstances. It seems clear only orcs level 2's and 1's are worth building, especially their level 2's. Which goes directly to the dwiggs criticism I hear constantly when I ask people why they won't play dwiggs, that its all about the level 2's and lesser extent 1's.

Some things to note,
None had life drain,(from their storm racial structure) which may have tipped the balance to the higher level units a little bit, but with dwiggs maybe not, considering how tough lower level creatures are. I could not find any orc units with life drain in the editor though, which means all orc neutrals wouldn't have life drain either. Considering human neutrals have will power, orc neutrals should have life drain (as well as structural recruites of course) if their racial structure gives that to them.

There are two oozes listed under orc section of the editor, one has water concealment the other doesn't.

Oh speaking of water, gluttons should have swimming. All that fat should make them pretty buoyant. Plus the ooze has swimming.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-23-2006 @ 06:05 PM).]

posted 03-23-06 07:04 PM EDT (US)     952 / 2994  
Also worth mentioning with these tests, autoresolve favors the higher level unit, the AI doesn't seem to know to attack with the least injured unit whos most likely to survive first.
posted 03-25-06 02:11 AM EDT (US)     953 / 2994  
I just want to mention that I'll finally have a bit of free time tommorrow and would very much like to play if anyone can make it. I should be on around 9gmt.

Regards,

bj

posted 03-26-06 05:35 AM EDT (US)     954 / 2994  
After my bonehorrors couldnt hit a single time oakbow's runemasters i got idea that would be good to increase their att and decrease def +2, -2 or +1, -1 also i think will be good to add fireimmunity to death knight and enchanted weapon will be required to hit it with full power for most of the units, titans get fire strike on silver, runemaster and avenger has it and death knight is supposed tp fight with some success vs such units or not?
posted 03-26-06 10:10 AM EDT (US)     955 / 2994  
Air is right about the death knights, they really need fire immunity to compete against avengers and such, as they are meant to.
posted 03-30-06 12:42 PM EDT (US)     956 / 2994  
Stranger? i m not playing aow since saturday and u are responsible for this
posted 03-30-06 06:20 PM EDT (US)     957 / 2994  
Hey Air,

sorry

I'll be on saturday, and a finished mod should be available within a week or so...which should get us some more players

posted 03-30-06 06:44 PM EDT (US)     958 / 2994  
Clearly avengers are suppose to kick undead butt. But as Ive said before, should lose most of the immunities so they are offensive, not defensive. Not reasonable for them to have both as a level 2.

Fire immunity on death knight? *blinks* they already have immunity to cold, lightning, holy, death, poison.. physical protection. Causes fear...They are great.

Testing them against their level four, 2 death knights (400g) clearly did well against a reaper (440g) Granted the reapers drain life didn't work. (the reaper did well at first, but it was like the RNG was stuck, So I et'd and moved the unit around between tries and the knights won well most times)

Then I tested the 2 death knights against a titan (460g, to be increased in price I hear) the death knights won overwhelmingly against the titan, even with fire halo on the titan (fire strike to get past physical protect plus ignition +1 attack & +1 damage) The two death knights STILL won most battles (usually down to one knight at 1/3 health but still) Though when the titan did win, it usually did so with at least 2/3's health,

Don't forget they are much faster then titans as well. 36mp verses 30, in a game where overland movement really makes a difference, yet their horses can't be controlled animaled. They are also faster in the sense that racial structures are cheaper and sooner made then all the level 4 stuff. And in the sense that 400 production takes less time then 460.

Another case of too many immunities, not having holy weakness should be enough, holy protection I can see.. sort of(still seems wrong though), holy immunity too much, cold & lightning immunity as well as physical protection and being undead which makes it immune to a host of other stuff as well (like seduce and sufficate for example) way too much. And you guys want to add fire immunity as well?! *sighs*

Oh speaking of fire haloe, it should give only extra melee damage, not range damage or extra attack IMO. Enchanted weapon imo should only give 2 attack, and not damage. Too much +1 +1 for every enchantment


So stranger, will you please consider making level 4's and a lesser degree level 3's tougher, cheaper and/or level 2's and 1's weaker/more expensive? These flaws really bring down dwiggs, few will play it with these kind of problems. And thats a shame because its got so much going for it.

You haven't done much replying. Your last reply didn't respond to most of the stuff I mentioned. I understand you lost what you did write about it when things crashed, but would you please bite the bullet so to speak and rewrite it or something? Even just some comment on some of it? I've wrote quite a bit on dwiggs. So it would be nice if you repayed my effort with some of your own. Thank you


[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-30-2006 @ 06:50 PM).]

posted 03-31-06 00:36 AM EDT (US)     959 / 2994  
Truepurple, tests without magic show nothing, for example human infantry is example of best combination of price and strength, but if humans will try to win by building only them they will lose very fast because of vulnerability to magic, huge upkeep for enchantments and so on. also even most expensive lev4 unit can be produced in 1 turn because of happyness and its always changing real balance to higher lev units, so all u wrote is wrong :P and take undead next time and try how great are death knights
posted 03-31-06 04:01 AM EDT (US)     960 / 2994  

Quote:

vulnerability to magic


They have no weaknesses, what do you mean, vulnerability to magic? You mean resistance? Any number of level 4's have less resistance then lower level units of the same race. Plus a few spells have physical components.

I have played undead, and won with them (against angel playing tigrans) Ive also fought tactically against them in single player games. They are TOUGH buggers.

You want to consider magic in the mix too? That only plays more to the death knight with its numerous immunities, which you want to add to.

One turn productions only very rarely happen with max happiness. Any happiness production rush at all isn't that common either. Hardly enough on its own to justify how pathetic level 4's are in dwiggs. Ask most everyone in GS who absolutely refuse to play dwiggs, and there are ALOT of them. They will all speak of the over emphasis of level 1's and 2's and how level 4s arent worth it in dwiggs.

Oh speaking of happiness, that brings back what I mentioned before, way too many structures give too much happiness in dwiggs. I swear someone with undead could hold a fully developed archon town with order shrine without any risk of revolt or visa versa.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-31-2006 @ 04:34 AM).]

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