Timelord just take nomads in next game and win vs me about mersenary and infantry, they have almost same def, res, hp and dam, on silver infantry getting extra strike also so only big differense is 4 att, willpower and round attack , how can u expect 8 mersenaries will kill 16 infantry if att of infantry high enough to hit often? adding to it how easy infantry to build in huge numbers early

On a general note, if there is a unit you want to see built, you are free to list it here. Please specify the race it should belong too, and what it would add to the race and how it suits their theme. I'm happy to make buildable units that "fit." However, I tend to agree with Swolte's post (see below).

Air, you don't always have to be right, especially when you're clearly wrong This is a way of saying to everyone that we don't need to use this thread to show how right we are, but to improve the mod so that it is more balanced and fun to play.

The Orc Overlord was overkill. In fact, since I've already explained this one, I'll just leave it. If you make a race have everything, there is no point in having different races. This touches on Swolte's point about losing racial uniqueness with too many buildable units. There are a limited number of abilities, and if we give too many to a race, we are bound to give them a lot of abilities that they share with other races, thus making them less unique. I don't want to keep repeating this, but a race should not get everything! The fun of learning to use a race is to maximize their strengths and defend their weaknesses. Imagine a chessboard where every piece was a queen. That's what 1.3 was to me, as the end game was typically all the same type of unit, more or less: i.e. the big basher.

Speaking of unique, Nomads get Strangle, Trap, Grasp, and Leadership abilities. I suppose they need high attack, res, def, and lower cost too? Come on, Air. If you want big attack, play Orcs. If you want balanced stats, play Archons. If you want speed, special abilities, and a gold bonus, play Nomads. Don't complain because a race can't do what other races can. That's part of the point of having different races.

The old Mercenary had throw blade, round attack, block, 14 def and 8 damage. It cost 120 gold. With an Order shrine and the Human production/growth bonus, it could be hurried at one per turn without a great loss. One Mercenary is a lot better than one Infantry.

The Knight is not the be all, end all unit for the Humans. How many structures and growth does it take to get to one? And their cost is that of more than three infantry. They also aren't particulary fast. First strike comes at silver, but I'm happy to take it off, as I tend to agree with you here.

Chaplain should not be as useful as the Chieftan. It costs much less gold. I've even bulked him up for this version, so I don't know that there's a point in complaining about him unless you want to make him a knight with leadership

Time, healing, holy champion, and turn undead aren't exactly "just" a near replica of the Charioteer. If I play Archons, I'd build mainly Charioteers, but mix in a paladin in each stack to keep up with them and keep them healed. A fast healer is quite an asset, I think.

On the area guards and such, this seems to be determined by unit slot. And slot also determines whether units can spawn or metamorph. So, it's not possible to move the spider (s) without giving up it's special abilities. The Archfiend will get moved, though!!!

On the Eagle, again, Air, you don't seem to understand the unit's purpose. You want to stack up uber units, but the Eagle is a scout/transport, the only one of it's kind in the mod. 50 mp, vision III, and true seeing as "useless?" Maybe if you want to assault a city, but not for moving around a tough slow unit/hero, scouting, raiding, keeping an eye out for invaders, and so on. If you want to criticize units (and be taken seriously), you need to understand their function.

Having noted all this, I hope I'm not being overly defensive. Keep the cricism and ideas coming

Regards,

BJ

mersenary costed 140 btw :P and how 550 gold cost unit can be overkill is hard question, also summonned ability made him weak vs bind or banish summon i guess? if yes its very strange overkill i can say with all u wrote about nomads i didnt find anything why u removed azrac about great eagle i understand that units have different purposes but much better i understand if unit worth getting or not. so lets see : eagle rider for 80 gold have vision3 as wrote in excel file for beta, even if u reduced it to vision 2 1 more vision is not very important thing. great eagle cost 400, att 16, dam 8, def 8, res 10, 27 hp 50 moves, grasp, poison weakness, vision3, willpower, true seeing, unstackable
roc cost 400, att 19, dam 10, def 8, res 13, 31 hp, 44 moves, grasp, vision3, willpower. didnt u notice something is wrong ? as whole idea that capitol not producing units many turns, spending huge amount of gold for buildings only to get that flying nonsense at the end? and again idea that 400 gold cost unit will keep eye on invaders is little strange, if we count all turns that need to get that scout appears that invaders army will be at least twice larger than defending and so invaders would never get trouble that halfling player is keeping eye on them :P adding to here question why halfling player cant keep eye on invaders with eagle rider? idea can be that halflings shouldnt try to get lev4 units faster, they can get it in the time that they will really need it, but i m sure that time will never come. such unit can appear in champions guild as additional choice or in racial building but not as lev4 required all lev3 buildings, adding to this that i cant see any unit that can fight, i only see they can defend their cities very good but once they are captured in field by melee opponents army they have no chance, in 4.5 halflings could try to use leprechaum at the end who had some fighting skills, but i remember u never got success playing halflings when i was in game and now chance is even more low so i think halflings still need reliable lev4 unit, with it they can use their growth bonus by making outposts and all different shooters to hold their position but at the end make competitive army.

forgot to mention that all these weak and cheap lev3 units like sheriff or chaplain will never be useful because when u getting city size such units are nothing in battles and if u will try to compensate it by making them in huge quantities , they will eat all your gold very fast because of high upkeep.

The bane of making weak but easy to produce units like the goblins in this game is that the upkeep is hardcoded. I mean, lv1 goblin units should only be 3 upkeep.

now trying to test theta with lunapark and truepurple and we cant find there instruction how to install beta, stranger maybe u will repost it?

Quote:

Stranger, in Dwiggs, I am yet to see Archons played with any other sphere than Life. Life Domain (for its cost and upkeep) is a far more effective solution than a fast healer.
Holy Champion is the only distinguishing trait, as far as I can see. If I am fighting Undead, I'd rather use his Holy Champion and Holy Strike than do a Turn Undead.
I'm not complaining that he is weak or anything, just that there needs to be a little more difference between a lvl2 and lvl3 cavalry, especially when the lvl2 cavalry is more versatile (archery, throw spear, marksmanship and the beautiful flaming arrows at gold! )

Speaking of flaming arrows, the other fx should be removed. Currently, it looks as if he the unit is firing two arrows - one that is the normal arrow and flies straight and the other is the flaming variant that arcs above. Maybe you should try asking TB again?

And about Great Spider, I've encountered area guards made up of an Arch Fiend and a Great Spider and another one of 2 Great Spiders. Ominous!

[This message has been edited by Timelord (edited 03-08-2006 @ 04:48 AM).]

just noticed in excel file incarnate that cant collect experiense have drain will at gold?!!!

Just so its clear, an incarante without drain will still get drain will when it possesses another unit.
I was playing an SP game where a possessed Centaur Veteran of the enemy had drain will and possess. When it tried to possess one of my Orc cavalry, it failed and the incarnate popped out - and it had no drain will.

So, drain will being not there is really not a problem if you can possess a non-willpower unit first! And it doesn't seem right to have a lvl3 unit have drain will and possess...and it can still gain gold level through melee only (almost impossible, I think, btw)

anyways any medal abilities for the incarnate do not make any sense.

anyway all of these things about incarnates seems too strange

I loathe the Incarnate. It should get no special abilities of it's own for medals; only what the possessed unit would get.

Otherwise, Incarnates and Soul Collectors stacked together would be too scary to contemplate. IMHO....

On the Incarnate: ok

And I've fixed the Ent and Arch Fiend area guards.

And I've edited the Hafling Eagle, which involved working on the Roc and Air Elemental also...more specifically, I took vision III of the Roc, grasp off the Eagle, and Ram off the Elemental. The Roc seemed good enough to me, but I gave Ram to the Eagle and a stat boost in res and dam, and whirlwind to the Elemental.

NOW....could everyone do me a favour? All the units you think need to be worked on graphically--those that don't fit, those that are ugly, blurry, silly, painful to regard--could you list them here and tell me why you think they need to be worked on or changed? I want to update the graphics, but am not entirely sure how many need to be changed.

Cheers,

bj

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 03-08-2006 @ 05:19 PM).]

The recycled lizardmen graphics from the older games don't live up to the quality of AOW2 and look rather out of place in my opinion.

Stranger, what time will you be in GS over the weekend?

Stranger thats not enough, u should add real lev4 unit for halflings btw why cant they have 2 lev4 units if u like that crappy scout so much?:P

I'll be on from 8gmt on saturday, and later on today...(thursday).

Kalindor, I agree. But I really like the Turtle catapult ballista and catapult in terms of gameplay, and I can't find any other graphics for them...

Stranger,
The gameplay of these units is quite unique. If I was a crazy ILB production ninja, I'd whip you up some awe-inspiring animations. As it is, I am relegated to the occasional complaint and persistent exuberance over the project.

Who says they aren't a different species?
While the quality of the ILBs is worth consideration, I never let unit/ilb size get in the way of my enjoyment of the game. After all, name me any animal with twice the weight of a wolverine that could beat one. Sometimes, really nasty stuff comes in small packages. Look at the Fey...

Cheers, gentlemen. I'll have a theta ready by tommorrow, I hope

Are there any other ilbs that people want to mention? I won't be offended, I promise....

BJ

Am I the only one who wishes the steam tank was still a level 4 with fire cannon and good def?

Also, think we could get +1 def on berserkers or physical protection or block at gold?

MitchK1989---

No, I too long for the days of the PanzerZwergKampfWagen (ZwergPanzer?).

God knows they were slow, but what they did to a gate or wall...

Actually, I have a lot more problems with that Dwarven ornithopter and balloon than I did the SteamWagon. But then, there still lurks a tanker deep within.

The balloon should be Transport I or II at most. If not, where is the novelty or "uniqueness" of the Human Air Galley? Every race should not have every unit or piece of equipment. Otherwisae, there is no incentive for having cities of different races to exploit their best units and being forced to juggle and allow for morale and such. This is where Bard's Skills should shine.

Who wants a homogenous empire anyway? Not me--no fun and too restricting.

My biggest complaint is the number of supposedly dwarven machines that the dwarves cannot build. Surely it wouldn't harm balance to give them ornithopters, repeater ballistas, and fire cannons at masters guild as well as their current setup? The dwarves could definately use a more machine oriented line-up, as it would make them very unique.

I really like mitches idea of lots of machine types for dwarves to make. I like air elementals with whirlwind.

Gnomes should be speed 24.(just best flavor imo for them) Gardners should have path of life, at least at medal. Why are the elves and dark elves so fast on foot? Might 28 be better then 32?

Presto the shapshifter has marksmanship, but no range attack, does it boost the shap shifting ability?(it loses the marksmanship if it changes into anything, like something with range)
Shapeshifting isn't suppose to change the units stats right?

Halfing great eagles:
Transport 1 or 2 makes sense as a theme, but it also means they can't stack or be in a army bigger then 2/3, and being able to transport only 2 seems poor compensation for that. A level 4 who is nothing much but a scout? Its a intriguing idea. But they need to be more powerful to compensate I think. Haste is definitely a nice compensation, but gold means few will get it, especially with the eagles poor stats compared to other level 4's. Its bad defenses and resistances alone means its easy archer food.

On the other hand to the critiques of the idea. Often the enemy sends in big stacks to take someones cap, if you can rush in to a less defended city behind them, that would be interesting.

I think it might be more interesting if sphynxes didn't start out with drain will. Perhaps get it at silver or gold. Maybe beholders could start out with drain will instead (and lose dispell enchantment)

Overall, not enough medal rewards. IMO Every unit should have a gold medal reward.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-11-2006 @ 03:48 PM).]

Hey Purple and Mitch,

I'll take a look at the Dwarves this evening. I don't see a balance problem with giving them plenty of machines, though it seemed to me that they already had quite a few. The thing is, I would like their machines to be "special," that is, Dwarvish. So, rather than loading them with all the game's machine, I want to ensure that their machines are a bit better, if you like, than those of less mechanically gifted races. But I'll definitely take another look, as I agree with you that they should definitely be the strongest machine race.

Gardners should get Path of Life at gold. I didn't add it because the description was so long, but I've changed that now. Cheers I think I will also give them a weaker version of taunt at silver, but this won't be implemented in the Theta.

The hero starts with marksmanship because he can gain ranged attack upgrades, such as fire pistol, though not not any marksmanship upgrades. So, if he didn't start with some marksmanship, he would never get any.

The idea for the Great Eagle was to give the Haflings something unique, that could rush a couple powerful units across the map and catch an enemy unawares. I so seldom see level fours stacked up more than 3 or 4 anyway, that I still have a hard time imagining anyone worrying about stacking them. I have made the Eagle a bit stronger, though I wonder if perhaps haste should come at silver? I've thought about Air's comment that they should have an additional level four but, besides the fact that I don't want to overload any race with unit, I can't think of one for them. Now, if someone had a great idea, I wouldn't be against putting into the mod

Dark Elves have been given the same movement as Elves, though with underground rather than forest advantages. I didn't see why they should be slower, especially as they are lightly armoured and generally frail in hitpoints and defense. A big Orc or heavily mailed Dwarf, short legged Dwarf should be slow imo, but not a light legged elf, even if it's fallen into evil....

Thanks for all the great feedback

BJ

Well if I recall correctly, transport two doesn't come till gold. So that leaves the eagle and one hero for domain (or a brain) Or maybe as a way to move your wizard to another cap. Hardly worth a level 4. Maybe as the racial special level 3...

Otherwise more transport, more defense (representing their ability to dodge blows via smart eagle tactics) more resist to prevent them from getting frozen or shocked to the ground and slaughtered...Haste sooner perhaps depending on what you boost the other stuff to.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-10-2006 @ 10:51 PM).]

Eagle is buildable unit that can carry any hero, afoot or mounted, correct?

IMO, lvl 4 is right; every slow, plodding hero can now be mounted on a destrier of the air. That is a tremendous advantage for your heros, let alone the other units it could be transporting. A couple of laden eagles becomes a defensive fire-brigade of sorts.

I just noticed that "&" near units name in excel file means unit is removed? so no races have 2 lev4 now? Stranger, evil person, what u didnt like in frost giant ?

In over probably a hundred Dwiggs games, I never saw one built.
You can still buy them, free them, or get them as a reward. I thought about making them the Air level 4 summons, but I imagine people would prefer a Dragon...

Yes, Kaskoid, anyone can get an eagle ride And, as these eagles are the largest of their kind, they can carry two units.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 03-11-2006 @ 03:44 AM).]

Stranger if u are not considering it broken balance return him and ppl will decide build it in 101 dwiggs game or not, i saw zylithan built fros giant once btw and i never saw built wolves. And pitguards have drain will while gypsy dancer with seduce is removed so the question is how nomads supposed to use this ability?