I'll try and keep a closer eye on the thread. We read a lot, but we can't always keep up.

In general, if a poster is affecting you so strongly that he/she is annoying you, I strongly advice one to simply ignore the so called 'personal attacks' and email me or Chow personally. It is often the only way in which we can single out one person and assess whether a response is really uncalled for. If not, in most cases, multiple parties are at fault when things spiral out of control.

Public complaints or off topic calls for moderators in threads rarely have a positive effect. Its not what the topic is for and it reflects bad on Dwiggs and the community.

Dwiggs from now on, plz.

Cute emoticon, Sheriff

Anyway, I'd like it if people edited their posts and cut out any inflammatory remarks. I think I can generally say that we're fair minded, likeable people here, though sometimes what we choose to write (and I've been very guilty of this!) is hardly representative of the type of person that we usually are. So, let's not publicize self distortions! Also, as Swolte wrote, infighting turns visitors off from the mod topic. Just think if you walk into a bar for a beer and some...good conversation...and people are hitting each other with chairs. I reckon you'll walk out, no matter how low happy hour prices are.

Ok, ok...now as to mod stuff. I'll just reiterate that I'd like to have a demo out within a week. What is the preferred method of transferring these files? (50-100 mb)

My best to all of ye.

Air elemental is expensive and weak, its the fact

Quoted from TP:

Air elementals should not receive more HP. Such does not fit in with their theme. If you think they need to be strengthened, another way is needed. But others have said they were just fine anyways.

There are other people in the online community that feel the air elemental needs strengthening, but they don't really want to post here any more, so as I agree with them I am posting on their behalf

Quoted from Stranger:

Ok, ok...now as to mod stuff. I'll just reiterate that I'd like to have a demo out within a week. What is the preferred method of transferring these files? (50-100 mb)

My preferred method would be uploading it to AoW2Heaven, clearly marked as a beta, then updating the file as and when changes are made. It has the option to update, and it states on the download page the date that it was last updated. Incremental version numbers would also help (maybe 5a, 5b, 5c etc.)

[This message has been edited by RogerRabid (edited 09-23-2007 @ 10:30 AM).]

With flying, phys. prot. and whirlwind the Air Elemental is already a great city attacker but if it's the general consensus that it needs strengthening I propose it be given the "blurred" ability rather than more hit points (maybe even a -1 hit point in that case since blurred is pretty good imo) because it fits the theme better with the A. Elem. being all air-like and thus pretty blurry. Phys. prot. and Wind Ward (if a player has an air elemental we can assume (s)he invested heavily into the air sphere) already keep it well protected against ranged attacks.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-23-2007 @ 11:39 AM).]

Good idea, Jean Luc. I'm content to make that change.

I'm happy to upload it to Heaven, but if people commented on the file, there could be confusion when I uploaded a final version in its place.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-23-2007 @ 12:04 PM).]

Maybe say in the description not to leave comments, email you instead?

once u are attacking cosmos wizard capital with free enchanted weapon - most of your air elementals will be killed before u can cast wind ward also low hp make perfect target for magic, 1 fireball - and result of 750 casting points is damaged very badly

There are few units in the game that won't be killed or heavily damaged by a garrison of archers with enchanted weapons including the Bone Dragon for example and I can see both Angels going down pretty quickly, so if those archers are present in a reasonable quantity one should accept there are going to be losses and be grateful that he or she (potentially) has Wind Ward or it could have been a lot worse.

Anyway, magic prot. and/or better resistance, if deemed required, might provide this unfortunate elemental with a longer life expectancy (during sieges) without compromising his windy form. If additional hit points are really needed then maybe just add a few. Just my view, unit flavor is one of my favorite things about Dwiggs and I'd like to see it preserved.

Oh, by 750cp I take it you're talking about 5 elementals getting damaged Air. Why not separate your force and attack the city from different directions, not only will it help avoid aoe effects but it will force the defender to either separate and become unable to focus fire or allow easy access into the city from unprotected sides. In any case losses from the first volley will be significantly reduced allowing you to cast Wind Ward or do whatever you have planned and your elementals (and other units) will be in better shape to carry the siege through to its end. It gets more complicated with big armies (like 3 adjacent stacks inside a city) but the same principle applies.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-23-2007 @ 02:57 PM).]

but u are saying air elementals are perfect siege weapon and both angels have some dirty tricks which are most part of their power

Another thing elementals are creatures of pure magic and all of them have no magic strike which seems to be odd

Not perfect, great. Flight and 40 mov. allow them to close in on the archers quickly, whirlwind disrupts them (so they have to spend movement points to take a better firing position and sometimes they get thrown outside the walls, pretty good imo.) and phys prot. is...well it's probably the best of all the protections although, like any other, it can be bypassed. Many other units besides the Angels have tricks but they still die to arrows. My point was that even very powerful units (more powerful than the Air Elemental) can die easily to archers (who are seemingly disproportionate in power) and that we just have to learn to accept it for now, it's practically always been like that in AoW (not AoW1 though).

Unless it's a very big map/long game I seriously doubt more than a few cities will have stacks of 8 archers + enchanted garrison. But if a game were to become so prolonged you'll probably have access to Frost Dragons and god know what else.

Still, the Air Sphere is the best one imo. when it comes to dealing with archers in cities (especially if haste is allowed).

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-23-2007 @ 03:34 PM).]

I also think that the AE is the most valuable level 3 summons--fast with vision and good attack. No big change is needed, imo, though I do like blurred.

And to those who've edited, thank you very much

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-23-2007 @ 05:07 PM).]

I have feeling whirlwind cant throw units outside walls, only grasp can do it though blurred will be good addition

Considering AE only costs a little more then a zephir bird but is a vaste improvement in both scouting but especially combat.

Stranger, what do you think about what I suggested for DE executioner?

Did you get my email concerning the figures comparing constructer to expansionist? I worked hard on those..

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-23-2007 @ 06:09 PM).]

Hmmm, you could be right Air. I have to admit I mostly assumed that whirlwind would push units outside walls probably because the effect reminds me so much of the Winds of Fury spell on which Grasp is based. I don't really have a clear memory of whirlwind doing that. WoF and Grasp kinda push the unit upwards and create a ballistic trajectory for their "flight" while whirlwind moves units more horizontally so the wall ramparts might prevent them from being flung outside the walls. I should pay more attention to this in the future. It's still a very good ability I'd say.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-23-2007 @ 06:17 PM).]

this "little more" is almost double price, double upkeep and vast use of research points, and don't forget to ask same question 10 more times here, 10 times in email; 10 more icq or msn messages will help to increase importance of your suggestions as well

I have a feeling a single air elemental could take out a whole army of birds.

Your snarky inappropriate comment has been diligently reported. I request you desist.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-23-2007 @ 08:44 PM).]

Quoted from TP:

Considering AE only costs a little more then a zephir bird but is a vaste improvement in both scouting but especially combat

It's hardly "a little more", one costs 150 mana and the other costs 85. Also you may possibly have had to research long and hard to have the AE summons in the first place

Quoted from TP:

Your snarky inappropriate comment has been diligently reported roger. I request you desist

Who?

[This message has been edited by RogerRabid (edited 09-23-2007 @ 07:28 PM).]

Quoted from TP:

Your snarky inappropriate comment has been diligently reported roger. I request you desist.

This only belongs in my email, not in a Dwiggs thread.

So, warning for TP. My post 2131 was clear that dragging this issue on any further in Dwiggs thread was not really an option. Your post is publically taking this on further, TP, and, imo, eliciting a flame.
Next time it happens, there is action to your account, regardless of what Roger does.

Hmmm, I see nothing in rogers behaviour after my moderating post that is inflammatory.

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 09-23-2007 @ 07:50 PM).]

Got the names confused.

Anyways. Its not that much more for how much much better air elemental is then the birds. Compare to salamander verses fires level 2's and 3's(which take research too) in both effectiveness and cost to cast. The difference is alot less dramatic then it is for zephir birds verses AE.

As I see it, the best way to balance the Air Elemental is against the other summons of the same level. Note that the Air Elemental should probably be weaker or more specialized in actual combat due to its greatly enhanced scouting abilities. The tradeoff of combat power in the summons for greater mobility is an interesting aspect of the air sphere.

Here are the other level 3 summons as compared to the Air Elemental for reference:

Air Ele properties: Flying, Vision II, Lightning Immunity, Cold Immunity, Physical Protection, Whirlwind

Format:
Name ATK DEF DMG RES HP MOV COST
Earth Ele -3 +4 +2 -1 +12 -16 -20
Tunneling, Wall Crushing, Cave Crawling, Fire Immunity, Poison Immunity, Mountaineering, Willpower, Hurl Boulder, Night Vision

Bone Drag +1 +2 0 -1 +7 0 +40
Death Strike, Cause Fear, Dragon, Undead, Black Breath, Poison Protection, Holy Weakness, Vision I, Night Vision

Nature Ele -2 +1 0 +5 +9 -8 +10
Death Weakness, Forestry, Entagle Strike, Life Domain, Path of Life, Poison Immunity, Regeneration

Efreet -2 0 0 +1 +4 -8 -30
Cold Weakness, Fire Immunity, Fire Strike, Floating, Ignition, Fire Bolts, Round Attack

Water Ele -2 +1 0 +1 +9 -12 -20
Water Concealment, Steam, Fire Immunity, Poison Weakness, Lightning Protection, Liquid Form




The Bone Dragon does seem to be a pretty good bargain vs. the Air Elemental, with superior stats and only missing one rank of Vision as a scouting tool. It does cost more mana, though. If Whirlwind and the lack of Holy Weakness are really valuable, then I can see them being balanced.
Generally, they seem balanced in my amateur opinion. The Earth Elemental seems like a great deal as long as you can get a transport for it.
Does it seem more logical that the Water Elemental have Lightning Protection or Lightning Weakness?

I'd say protection, as it's a being composed of the essence of water. Lizard get the weakness because, while they move through water, they are not "of" it.

In regards to the Elemental, its ability to make quick attacks and escape the sight of other units cannot be overestimated. I think that perhaps blurred and a slight increase in resist should be plenty, if help is needed.

Referring to summons, are people satisfied with the Northern Glow? I never have been, really....Any ideas for a replacement unit?

Finally, could people please restate their ideas for Plague of Firebugs. It's a level 4 Earth attack spell that spews forth a giant cloud of venemous, fiery, structure gnawing insects.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-24-2007 @ 00:06 AM).]

In regards to the Elemental, its ability to make quick attacks and escape the sight of other units cannot be overestimated

Shouldn't be under-estimated?

Sigh...yes

Would anyone be willing to try extracting various bitmaps from ilbs for me? Hamlets editor crashes when I try and extract some of mine. I suspect it's a Windows Vista issue.

Stranger, did you get my email about the numbers??

Would anyone be willing to try extracting various bitmaps from ilbs for me? Hamlets editor crashes when I try and extract some of mine. I suspect it's a Windows Vista issue.

Well I have no experience of that sort of thing, but I'm willing to have a try

The air elemental is already quite powerful in its own respect and one of the best summons at that lvl in the game - unless there is a newer version I am not aware of. Flying, 40 mp, chances of getting them early with Air spec, Watcher + Haste Domain (can really cripple scouting and invading armies). Sure, you attack an army of shooters with ew and behind walls with a bunch of air elems and you will get them slaughtered but isn't that like the whole point - that you should not use them everywhere and for all your needs?

Would anyone be willing to try extracting various bitmaps from ilbs for me?

I might have some free time in the next 2 weeks, so I am willing to take a shot, if you'd like.

TL ppl said they are best in siege, now we got idea that they are best in scouting and combining them with other air spells to notice how powerful they can be, but once we will combine any other elemental with most powerful spells, like earth elemental, road built almost to enemy border, enchanted roads, stone skin, crush gates and tremors during battle - we get most slow elemental as fast and perfect siege weapon adding to this earth awareness and we can say that earth elementals can always strike in right moment or efreets and 2 hellfires + one precasted + 1 from catalyst = instant victory vs almost everything So lets discuss air elementals without bringing windward and haste domain, though I see little problem in other air spells, all 3 lev1-3 summons are "very good in scouting" or "very special", so their hp are 8,10 and 13 so the question who are supposed to do actual fighting if all are special or spy masters ?

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 09-24-2007 @ 03:24 AM).]

[moderator]Ok, I have checked post 2146 by Air and I don't find it strong enough to warrent an official warning but it is getting very close, especially considering the context in the thread. So Air, please lay off TP for a bit, even if you were just trying to lighten the mood.

TP, Air does have a point and that is the persistence issue. I can see multiple posts of you reiterating feedback on one issue. I am also getting multiple complaints about this and I think there is some truth to it (I have told you about this as well, some time ago).
I know you are trying to help, but please remember that the people here are all volunteers and that we are all dependent on their kindness. Sometimes designers don't want to deal with issues, tell people off without long explanations, or simply deal with issues in their own time.
We are not in a position to demand, nor dedicate public posts to remind again and again and again. It can make the designers look sloppy and the community look impatient.

Questions re- this post on email.
[/moderator]

Swolte u frightened all the ppl, they stopped posting