No replacing either troll please. If a unit "sucks" then we should improve it. Not replace it. Besides its the only goblin unit able to move over and attack in water.

Air:
For the sake of this thread I'm going to respond to only what you said. Not the aggravating tone behind it. So next time someone pisses you off, bite your tounge too please.

Great spiders:
The improvements in other areas will modulate risk of control animal. Like 12 resistance means only 35% chance of success. The extra speed will mean it will be able to reach and web/attack control animal units so they can't move. We could make it 13 res even (for 30% chance) But I don't think willpower is needed. Maybe at gold?

Also it means while you would now have reason to make great spider units, it would also mean you would have reason not to make armies only out of them, except maybe to attack lonely outposts and other such nonmain targets that you know don't have control animal units.

Dwiggs is about knowing what your opponent is making and making units that are strong, not weak against those. This would just be another example of that.

Could also use them to conquire much of the UG & wilderness with their extra speed and durability leaving a main army to focus on the enemy.

To that end, we could possibly give spiders both young and great forestry. Or at least the babies. Why would a spider not be able to travel through a forest unhindered? (remeber that great ancient forest was the home of some great [big] spiders in the hobbit)

Perhaps UG concealment, even regular concealment too? (if we then don't increase their speed) So they can ambush their prey. This would also help with the enemy. So he/she would not know you have spiders and build control animal units if he/she can.

Boreal sphere:
I've won at least a couple games based on their cheap quick speed and float alone. I've had others win a game against me based on the same at least once or twice. I've heard comments from others that its too fast too. You haven't even been playing awhile.

Frostlings have 2 units with speeds of 26. Can get even slower units from structures, spells and stuch. Those units with speeds of 30 would still be able to travel a extra square a turn.(don't underestimate the power of that) Don't underestimate the power of float to act like both free movement and water walking. And to take away the tattle tail frost path (and help protect you from ruining crops when conquering stuff with a frost queen in your army)

Also units in a transport only move like 2 mp a square. which means they can launch out of transports for extra distance.

32mp & float would still be plenty useful. It only costs 120 gold

Executionar:
If they're power needs to be modulated to keep them reasonable like I mentioned then thats fine. I didn't put any specific suggestions but heres one I mentioned some time back(I've made minor change since then though)

They start out with death strike, get dark gift and death protection at silver and lightning strike (and magic protection like normal) at gold. A gold medal one would be no different then it is now. Maybe death immunity at gold.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-20-2007 @ 01:08 PM).]

TP its a big surprise that sometimes ppl can win because of fast transport, they are designed for different purpose aren't they? btw I have feeling when this sphere was key to victory it wasn't carrying 26 mov penguins and snow capers also need to mention this thing cant use road bonus. And about spider i m sure u can take risk of building animal lev3 units, little problem that u are alone in this unbelievable courage and suggestions of moving lightning strike for executioner to gold are already close to adding them 3-4 weaknesses

Jean_Luc willpower+animal means unit have only willpower

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 09-20-2007 @ 01:49 PM).]

Let's consider the Dire Fungus in, and then decide what we want to do with the tank.

I don't think the Great Spider is all that bad, really. High hitpoints, high attack, wall climbing, web, decent movepoints...good upgrades at medals...fun special ability. No, unless the consensus view is that it's a horrible unit, I don't think it needs changing. Just because a unit costs 170 gold doesn't mean it needs a generically high defense. The point of Dwiggs is difference between units and that all are valuable in some way. Value is not only in base stats but in abilities.

Lightning Strike on Storm Mage seems right, agreed. Let's consider it done.

Why don't some of you propose some mutually exclusive skills groups, as it's an idea I think can really work.

I think we can keep the Troll AND add the Fungus, as the Goblins are about being prolific.

Yes, Gandalf, I've been updating the readme file, though adding the quest rewards would be a lot of work! If someone wants to volunteer, though, I'd be happy to send them the resource set and readme file.

In regards to the Syron...well, what immunity to strip it of, that's the question!

I'll fix the Ram, Roger

Air is not quite right on the Willpower thing, of course, if the thing get's it drained, but that's unlikely of course

All of you, keep the good ideas coming, it's appreciated...reminds me of the "old" days

bj

Could it be then that spider queen is way too powerful then? Its a vaste improvement on great spider with only twice the build time.

Generically high defense? 8 defense is not generically high. Many level 1's have at least 7 or 8 def.

You don't like my animal idea for great spider stranger? It would make its use more specialized just like you were talking about.

What do you think of DE having masked webbing so that they can travel through overland web without getting stuck?

What do you think of what I said about borel sphere and executionar stranger?

suggestions of moving lightning strike for executioner to gold are already close to adding them 3-4 weaknesses

Hardly. Especially with free dark gift. Extra damage plus death strike can cause lots of damage. You don't need to stun something if you can simply kill it.

for fragile executioner stun is the only way to be alive another thing that lightning is DE theme isn't it?

Stranger i m almost right about willpower and animal, once u need 1st to drain will - its become too complicated.

About skills - minimal changes can be constructor, explorer and expander are mutually exclusive, all costs 1 pick in this case. pacifist and peacekeeper\warmage. scholar\survivalist or scholar\merchant (though both pairs seems too unequal, as merchant>scholar>survivalist) so maybe only change of major skills will be enough. or radical idea I proposed before

About syron :as poison isnt pure magic - antimagic unit can be without this immunity.Though orcs, lizards and dark elves will be happy, other races still need to kill 60 hp with liquid form Another idea is to remember that problem with syron appeared once per millenium and not touch it

And almost forgot - all 200+ gold cost lev3 fliers must have willpower I think and another bonuses for most weak ones : ice drake and green wyvern. and no magic strike on roc seems odd as nomads have it on their advanced units.

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 09-20-2007 @ 03:44 PM).]

In regards to the Syron...well, what immunity to strip it of, that's the question!

Poison

minimal changes can be constructor, explorer and expander are mutually exclusive, all costs 1 pick in this case.

I like the idea of explorer and expander costing 1 pick but the point remains, constructor is just vastely more valuable then the other two in dwiggs.

Sooner builds mean structures give you their bonuses earlier (and more time making merchandise if you want) Constuctor is faster just like explorer.

Constructor allows your cities to grow faster by allowing you to produce structures that give growth sooner & by cutting down on rushes. I say constructor can do more for city growth then expander currently. Though I am of the opinion we should cut down on the growth bonuses of dwiggs buildings and that would help.

Constructor means more gold and mana in dwiggs.

It even means more happiness. That is something else I wish dwiggs buildings gave less of.

Most races, construction neatly fits into completion without waste much more then nonconstruction.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-20-2007 @ 11:18 PM).]

TP if u build nature shrine 1 turn faster - u get 20 additional growth and 20 gold,not more, expander will give 15 growth for your capitol EVERY TURN. is difference understandable now?

Quoted from TP:

Though I am of the opinion we should cut down on the growth bonuses of dwiggs buildings and that would help

I'm strognly opposed to this, as presumably it would make dwiggs games even slower

Stranger if you send me the resource set and the xls file to mikkelkc@ruc.dk I will see if I get the time to add a description of the quest rewards.

Reg. making even more abilities mutually exclusive, and how to do this, my comment is that in the present version, already a number of abilities (more than in normal) are mutually exclusive, and I think increasing this number would make dwiggs worse and not better. Making growth bonuses /lower/ might suit those who want REALLY, REALLY long games - I think it's madness - would also be interesting to see if there is more than one person who actually sees this as a good idea.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-21-2007 @ 07:19 AM).]

I have no interest in changing growth bonuses. Nor do I see it as necessary. If there is a group that wants a slow growth mod, they are welcome to adapt Dwiggs and play it among themselves. Next topic, please.

I'll send it thee, Gandalf...email me at bradjosse@gmail.com

In cutthroat, competitive gaming, explorer is still an invaluable skill. Same goes for expander. You cannot force your troops/cities to move/grow faster. You can force productions faster, via hurrying.

There may too much happiness in the game...this does lower the value of the Order Shrine. I wouldn't mind reducing the happiness give by religious structures.

In regards to making skill picks exclusive of each other, I don't see how it could make the game worse...I do see how it can make it better, deeper, more interesting, more varied, skill choices become more meaningful and crucial--they represent paths rather than just accumulations. I'm open to any arguments (detailed, specific ones, please ) that can be made against it.

Exclusive skills can be bad if u make unequal skills exclusive- and shorter list of same skills for every player is worse than longer one

That's true So give me an fully worked out plan of what you think would work...

@Air
Oh yeah, its all about 1 turn more for nature shrine.. Pfft. Your showing alot of ignorance of dwiggs in that statement.

I computed some figures for numbers of the benefits of construction verses expansion. I'll send them to stranger.

Concerning executionar:
The theme of DE are special strikes. Magic, death, cold, lightning, poison. Notice how most DE get magic and death protection on gold.

Air you critisize the effectiveness of DE. If mostly only executionars are worth building of those with silver, does that mean other units like great spider are crap according to you?

If being DE is about massing silver medal executionars, doesn't that mean the balance and interplay in DE is off?

Executioners aren't that terribly fragile for their cost. Especially with things like energy drain and life stealing on their repertoire. But if your concerned about their safety. Use web or storm mage or a freezing shadow or storm watch to hold them in place while you use the executioners death strike to finish them off.

Imagine that, their roll being the executioner, not the entire army.

Also the question remains, are you guys claiming spider queens are too powerful then?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 01:11 AM).]

animal great spider and crippled executioner is best way to improve dark elves ? seems someone playing DE beat u badly

Sidestepping all the points I made with your glib nonsense. Way to make a case[/sarcasm]

Actually in all fairness you do great long complicated posts, you keep unnecessarily repeating things that you've already said previously, and out of 150-200 suggestions that you have made in this thread there have been about three good ones. Stranger has sifted through all the debris and extracted those three good ones, despite your aggressive and confrontational attitude, and has said he will adopt them. I for one admire his stamina and his maturity in dealing with somebody like you, I think he deserves a medal personally for his tact, his diplomacy and his endless patience!

yes, stranger is a hero my patience is far less

"extracted the three good ones"

Another glib thing to say. Too bad many of you don't have a clue when it comes to discussions.

Take Jean_Luc, his knowledge isnt as great but he knows how to discuss things on their merits, and not on sarcasm & ego. I've not seen that much at all out of either of you two. Glib remarks & bald unsubstantiated claims/statements do not make a case. Not that I expect you to understand that.

One needs alot of patience dealing with the likes of you.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 02:52 PM).]

BTW I'd like to point out that while thematically it makes sense for syron to lack poison immunity.. If water keeps poison domain that will mean water will be that much more powerful. If your the one whos summoning the syrons you have the liquid form that still makes them ever so much more powerful.

If your the one fighting them.. poison domain would be their greatest weakness. Because lets face it, with their high resist (with or without summoners domain) thats about the only way they will poison.

I'd also like to point out that banish and bind are both magic type only according to the editor. Which means syron must be immune to those too (with its ultra high resist its not like it needs to be, but at least if it wasn't then you'd have a chance, even if it is 10% or something)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 03:03 PM).]

Hi Swolte/Chowguy.

Below a sample of TP's prose here in the thread. I do not understand why you haven't warned him yet - nor why you haven't banned him. I would appreciate it if you would explain to me and the other users of this forum. Also, in case you decide TP is allowed continued free reign on this forum, can you inform me if I can appeal to anyone "above" you?

TP post 2219:
"Another glib thing to say. Too bad many of you don't have a clue when it comes to discussions.

Take Jean_Luc, his knowledge isnt as great but he knows how to discuss things on their merits, and not on sarcasm & ego. I've not seen that much at all out of either of you two. Glib remarks & bald unsubstantiated claims/statements do not make a case. Not that I expect you to understand that.
One needs alot of patience dealing with the likes of you."

TP post 2116:
" Sidestepping all the points I made with your glib nonsense. Way to make a case[/sarcasm]"

TP post 2114:
" @Air
Oh yeah, its all about 1 turn more for nature shrine.. Pfft. Your showing alot of ignorance of dwiggs in that statement."

TP post 2101;
"Air:
For the sake of this thread I'm going to respond to only what you said. Not the aggravating tone behind it. So next time someone pisses you off, bite your tounge too please."

TP post 2089:
" First off accusing me of whinning is flamish. So cut it out please RR."

TP post 2072:
" Just the ones full of themselves and their expert AoW knowledge do that RR. The failure of personality and decency behind those who put others down like that is irrelevant RR."

TP post 2070 (later edited out):
"(In your face "know it all" merkraad, who claimed taunt was physical and I know little about the game. Look in the friggin editor mister "know it all", sorry others, just sick of people who talk down to me)"

HG code of conduct (http://forums.heavengames.com/support/tos.shtml

"Ad Hominem:
Ad Hominem comments/personal attacks towards anyone - staff, forum member, or a visitor who is likely to view it on the forums - is subject to the message being deleted and action taken against the user, regardless of how pertinent or thoughtful the rest of the message might be."

Swolte, would you agree that the above are examples of a lot of ad hominen comments or personal attacks?

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-22-2007 @ 04:26 PM).]

What myopic vision, you see only what I write and not what I was replying to. As though that which I was replying to was so much better, bull! I need not say any more because your post is clearly out of line. Making a long post in dwiggs thread all about trying to get me in trouble..

*edited in* the heavy irony of using a offtopic personal attack post to decry and try to get banned another forum user on the bases of personal attack posts.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 06:47 PM).]

"Ad Hominem:
Ad Hominem comments/personal attacks towards anyone - staff, forum member, or a visitor who is likely to view it on the forums - is subject to the message being deleted and action taken against the user, regardless of how pertinent or thoughtful the rest of the message might be."

With those criterions I say now, that every1 should be banned on the forums and the society of mankind. Too bad, that it won´t work that way.

Also hilarious to see 2 egoistic persons shitting their pants and one having enormous goal of banning the slower one. And getting bigger ego to himself

That leads us nowhere and too bad that the dwiggs community is ruined.

Any chance we can try to keep the thread on-topic please, guys?

My on-topic goes to that, that the

Hamachi

network is

|| Dwiggs // patch || and will be
|| Dwiggs // 5.0 || asap

[This message has been edited by Munataros (edited 09-22-2007 @ 06:17 PM).]

I won't comment on earlier stuff. But Muna's last post gets me in the mood for some playing, which to me means releasing a mod. I'm happy to say that a fellow forumer managed to find y request for help with bitmap images (which requests gets concealed behind off topic posts, ehem ), and has generously undertaken to clean up the images and make them pretty as can be. So, this means that I'd really like to release at least a test version within a week or two! With that in mind, what vehicle is best for distributing the mod? Pando? I assume that it will be around 50-80 mb.

Did you read what I wrote before it got thrown off topic stranger? Like posts 2120 & 2114? What do you think about what I showed you with those numbers?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 07:52 PM).]

Air Elementals seem quite weak, and could possibly do with about three extra hp?

Quoted from Stranger:

I'd really like to release at least a test version within a week or two!

Cool!

Quoted from TP:

Did you read what I wrote before it got thrown off topic stranger?

It was thrown off-topic by the unnecessary comments you made in post 2116, TP

2116 was a direct response to airs post. And of the same quality as his too.

Air elementals should not receive more HP. Such does not fit in with their theme. If you think they need to be strengthened, another way is needed. But others have said they were just fine anyways.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-22-2007 @ 08:52 PM).]