Ok, Ok, since Gandalf suggests that this thread is a bit untidy (such a notion! ) ...I'm going to try and respond so stuff in the order it's been posted.

But first, I want to relate what I consider to be a wee triumph: I was not satisfied with the frog rider, and turtle siege units from AoW1 for the lizards, so I've made new ones, and am pleased to announce that they look pretty good In honor of their new bodies, I decided to improve the frog rider slightly, which I hope will be acceptable. He now has venemous spit, 13 hp, 6 damage, and costs 60 gold.

Ok...About Goblins: Warg Riders really should get a change. I don't like taunt on them, and think it suits bombers better. So, if you have ideas for the Warg Rider, please post them. I could probably make a new unit for it, but am too daunted by the prospect at present. With cheap upkeep for the level ones, lower upkeep on the level 2's and one level 3 (the beetle). I think this is a pretty strong race. In fact, I'll play anyone here with Goblins as my race and I guarantee that...I'll try my best to win!

I'm tending to agree that Lightning Immunity is a better option for Dark Elves, but giving them Hurl Lightning is plumb necessary if I do that. Which means Changing Hurl Starfire...sigh. Maybe it's the right thing to do, even though I made a pretty Archon Catapult just for it.

In regards to Water and Air spells: First of all, Air is quite strong, and so I don't see any problem with switching Lightning and Cold spells in terms of weakening Air. I suppose the question is, does it make Water too Powerful? I don't think so. I could certainly increase the research and casting costs of some Water spells, but thematically, I think it works pretty well. All other spheres have similar spells grouped together: Fire has fire spells, Death, death, Life, Holy, so why should Air and Water have mixed spells?

I can't take Fire Immunity off Fire Halo, so it's a moot point to argue about it.

In regards to enchantments, we've debated it a lot in the past, though I'm open to discussing it again. The basic idea is that enchantments are special abilities that the player must put on units that have high priorities. What Dwiggs wanted to avoid, and I agree, is mass casting of two to four enchantments on huge hordes of units, which sort of makes the point of having different units with strengths and weaknesses moot--everything becomes a sort of super unit. Personally, I have no trouble enchanting large quantities of units--if I make Magic a priority in my strategy. I like rewarding Magic Shrine players with the ability to enchant more units. Making enchantments cheaper would penalize the magic shrine as well as players that go first for structures that generate mana.

Not sure about reduced research on a tower...research used to be painfully slow, but maybe it's not a bad idea. It forces a player to choose their spells. Or we could reduce tower research to 15 or so.

I've also been experimenting with making certain skills mutually exclusive, so that players have to choose a skill path rather than simply researching EVERY SINGLE skill, which is boring, I think. For example, a war mage couldn't be a pacifist or peace keeper, a reclusive scholar couldn't be an adventurous explorer, etc.

Lal, thanks for the friendly words

BJ

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-15-2007 @ 11:02 PM).]

Man, your replies suggest you didn't completely read what I wrote stranger. For example, I suggested changing the research bonus into mana bonus for wizard tower (and notice the mana bonus part) along with reducing research costs.

Merkraad made the point this would make dwiggs more friendly for nonwizard tower start games too.(though they are pretty rare)

A number of other examples, but too busy to get into it now. I'd request you reread some of the stuff I wrote please. Otherwise I'll see about repeating myself tomorrow or when ever I find time & energy to do so.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-15-2007 @ 11:27 PM).]

TP, if you'd write a little less, I'd respond to more of what you write As it is, the prospect of responding to EVERYTHING that is written in this post is simply not within the scope of what I want to spend my time doing. I try to respond to those things that seem most deserving of the response (and you have posted many good suggestions, so please don't think I'm being negative). But I'm not going to compose an answer or reply to everything written here. Think about how much energy that would require on my part and ask yourself if it's what you'd really do.

In regards to the tower, mabye 15 mana and 15 research would be better.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-15-2007 @ 11:46 PM).]

btw as great hail is much stronger than chain lightning - saying that water became stronger by this change is pure nonsense

Wizard tower research bonus is important as u can start without summons and will be too nice rush target also any idea that makes dwiggs games longer is bad just because of it!

Warg raider with taunt is much better than warg rider with charge, I remember i ever made them only because of taunt, as for pure strength butchers are much better if it will be with block, charge and throw spear, or poison strike instead of block - it can be interesting.

Hey everyone, first time poster/player here. Just got AoMSM a couple of days ago, played the tutorial and did the first thing I do with every game, look for mods Noticed Dwigg's getting a lot of praise and installed it but i've got a few questions.

Firstly, will I be missing out on anything the mod changes/adds by playing the SM campaign and scenarios? As in, is there anything in the mod that is beyond the scope of the SM campaign? This question came to my mind after seeing teh "Mod Maps" sticky...

Secondly, about the installation, is this the right order?
Game > unofficial 1.4 > Dwigg's 1.4(140 mb) > Dwigg's 1.4 patch(40mb)

And thirdly, is there any kind of documentation which includes ALL the changes done and not just the latest?

Thanks in advance, great job on the mod!

Lemme try and get some load of Stranger's back.

Forgotten Effigy,

First, as far as I know the AoW:SM campaign isn't compatible with mods (not with Dwiggs at least) so if you want to play it you'll have to do it using default resources.

As for the installation, it's all correct except you could add this to the end of that line: "Dwiggs1.4 Patch missing ilbs and resource update" link: http://aow2.heavengames.com/downloads/showfile.php?fileid=758

Heh, not sure about the documentation but the number of changes is vast (it's a pretty extensive mod, the races feel and play very differently)and, imo, it would be best to just play the mod and see for yourself.

Thanks for clearing that up! So the scenarios(pre and random generated) are still compatible with Dwigg's right?

Some scenarios were made specially for Dwiggs (there is a topic regarding that here in the general section: http://aow.heavengames.com/cgi-bin/forums/display.cgi?action=ct&f=29,5126,0,60) but you can play more or less any scenario by opening it in the map editor, clicking anywhere on the map and than saving it (give it another name if you want to specifically designate it as the "Dwiggs version"). After that you play it as you would any ol' scenario. If you don't mind investing the play time I'd recommend "Rise of Dwiggs" (reworked Rise of Kings) as the beginning map. It's big (but not too big ), shows many of the races in their full glory, is great for single player and it's quite beautiful. Each race has a really nice starting area that fits its character. It might be a bit overwhelming if you're completely new to the game so use the appropriate difficulty setting.

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-16-2007 @ 12:53 PM).]

Thanks for all the info, but it still doesn't answer one of my questions will I have problems playing random generated scenarios? And, how do you know if a scenario/campaign isnt compatible, are there any obvious and noticeable differences or is it more subtle because I started the campaign and didnt find anything out of place. Also, im curious to know as to how opening a scenario in the editor and saving it makes it compatible with Dwigg's?

Sorry for all these question, im really eager to get these cleared and play the game.

Oops, forgot about the random map thing. Well I don't use the random map generator myself but I don't see why it wouldn't work.

As for compatibility, well roughly, the difference is that when you open and save the map you do it with the Dwiggs selected under the "custom resources" in the setup menu so the game simply uses the mod's resources/features instead of the default ones for that specific map. I don't know enough about this to explain it any better/with more depth.

If a map is incompatible you simply won't be able to play it, the "start" button will be grayed out or maybe the scenario will begin to load but the game will crash or freeze.

One of the most obvious differences between Dwiggs and vanilla AoW:SM is that Dwiggs replaces Shadow Deamons, Syrons and Draconians with Deamons, Fey Folk, and Lizardmem in that order. There are many other differences, heroes and some units look different, units have different names/stats/abilities, there are a lot of new units (both within the races and neutral ones)...well, you get the picture...

Thanks very much, Jean Luc

The only thing I can add is that Dwiggs was once compatible with the campaign, but that was long ago. I don't think it's practical anymore, what with the Shadow Demons and Syrons being replaced.

Cheers

Hi Stranger.

I understand Dwigg's idea of avoiding mass use of spells on units. Still, if upkeep and casting cost of most enchantments was reduced by 30% the effect would still be there. As is, nearly everybody chooses to be a specialist, and since dwigg games are long, it also means that quite often a mastery spell decides the game.

Reg. the goblin warg riders: I fear the goblins will be too weak if their taunt is removed, as is they are a goblin staple attack unit and is really useful; without taunt they will just be weak, heh.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-17-2007 @ 06:30 AM).]

Yes, that's true on the Warg rider, Gandalf. Unless we can find some compensating ability, I'm inclined to keep them the same.

As for the upkeep, I'm still not sure. People have been complaining about Water being overpowered...part of that is the enchanments, SS and LF. I'd be open to reducing upkeep slightly, but without reasonably high casting cost, the wretched Enchanter skill becomes more wretched yet, and people simply load up before big battles (cities full of enchanted weapon archers).

Stranger, my complaint isn't that you've not responded to everything. My complaint is that you haven't read everything or everything carefully. A number of different responses that you have given reflect this. (not necessarily all of the following though)

Which makes me wonder how much of the stuff you didn't respond to, did you read. If you read it at all.

Quoted from stranger:

Which means Changing Hurl Starfire

Can't you just use lightning bolt with area 1 like I suggested? How is that different then changing hurl lightning?

Quoted from stranger:

so why should Air and Water have mixed spells?

I get what your saying. But that doesn't change that lightning and chain lightning make alot more sense as air spells. And hail makes sense as a water spell. Vengful vapor too.

Also that having static shield and chain lightning will notably reduce the usefulness of having natural lightning immunity for the reason I gave. Which will have a direct negative impact on both the usefulness and theme of DE with lightning immunity. (theme because then they don't have a reason to go air which would have been a nice theme bonus)

Also they do have different themes and functions that separate them. Like water has mud that slows you down and air haste that speeds you up. It doesn't have to be about the elements.

Quoted from stranger:

I can't take Fire Immunity off Fire Halo, so it's a moot point to argue about it.

No you can't (yet anyways) and I acknoweldge that fact in what I was saying. Thats not what I was suggesting. I would like it if fire lost fire halo altogether. Left to nature or magic shrines and structure reward. That is something you could do.

Quoted from stranger:

Not sure about reduced research on a tower.

What do you mean, "research on a tower"?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-16-2007 @ 02:55 PM).]

How about just giving the Warg/Wolf Rider forestry right away instead of silver? It's not much but helps a little and wolves generally have (and should) have forestry whether someone's riding on their back or not. Maybe even vision I to make it even more viable as an (aggressive) scout. It would be a "buff" but nothing too much.

It's difficult to explain why would he have taunt but I feel he needs it too. Maybe like this, just for the heck of it: As a scout/vanguard for the Goblins the Warg Rider is capable of presenting himself as a decoy and using various visual tricks and terrain features to give his side the tactical advantage...or something. :P Goblins do come off as natural harassers, annoying little buggers...

Alright, had a few problems with scenarios not working and fixed them by selecting "Dwigg's 1.4 patch" under custom resources in the setup. Everything seems to be working fine now, thanks a lot for your help...

You're welcome. I was also confused about whether to select Dwiggs 1.4 or Dwiggs 1.4patch when I first tried it but some "trial and error" fixed that.

TP if DE take air magic, and opponent take water magic - their lightning immunity will be very useful - as now they can hit enemy SS enchanted units with great hail and enemy cant hit them with his chain lightning and static shield, so pls stop posting same unproved statements again and again, its too close to spamming

I covered that, yes one of the ways lightning immunity could be useful is if your opponent picks one of six spheres, water. But its usefulness should not depend on that alone.

If air keeps chain lightning then air becomes a good combo for DE. To be able to cast a area damage spell without hitting your own units (and hail will hit your units as well BTW, so not as useful when your units are tangled up in combat)

Such would be the only non select situation use of lightning immunity other then being able to use hurl lightning on a area where your units and the enemy units are. And that mostly only applies to DE.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-16-2007 @ 06:59 PM).]

Enchantsments II:
Static shield is probably the most powerful enchantment, so
keeping that at current cost while other enchantments are reduced by 30% would weaken the 'overpowered' water. I agree water is strong, probably too strong, the effect of static shield, liquid form, spring rains AND poison domain, and the fact that the super-cheap attack spell - geyser - never misses and does decent damage every time.

Re-read your post, Stranger. Reducing upkeep is more important than reducing the casting cost, if I can talk you into reducing the upkeep of most enchantments with 30% that'd be fine - but not the water enchantments!

My issue is not only cheaper enchantments, but also the balance between cosmos wizards and specialists; another option could be to increase the research and casting cost of mastery spells by 50%.

Sadly I don't have the grand overview of dwiggs, but I was going to ask if anyone can list the amount of units with path of life/decay/frost? I was going to suggest that there should be more of these (they make for fun forms of warfare and expansion), but I guess we need to know how many there are in the first place

Vision I and/or forestry would greatly increase the usefulness of the warg rider, of course; vision I being the greatest boost IMO.

Would like to add that I think the graphics in Dwiggs work REALLY well, not sure why you're unhappy about the lizard frogrider, but I think you're doing the hell of a piece of work on the graphics, Stranger - and as these threads are, I think it's a good idea to bring up some positive comments

To Air: I haven't seen you in Gamespy in ages, but I can see you are alive. Dwiggs is the version being played the most in GS at the moment, so I wonder why you don't participate?

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-17-2007 @ 07:48 AM).]

not in ages Gandalf, only several months

The only beef I have with Dwiggs graphics is that the hero Avernus looks like a girl. Even though it's a fairly pretty one.

TP, Lightning Bolts has no radius option. I can't change it.
If I remove Fire Halo from Fire sphere, then it will have a whopping one enchantment, while most other spheres have at least three. Consider, then, why I didn't respond to these points. My comment meant reducing research given by a tower.

Gandalf, thank you for the well thought out out post. I think we can find a fair compromise in regards to enchantment upkeep. I'll make some test changes and post them here some time in the next couple of days.

Air, you should stop by and play again...I intend to start doing the same soon.

AFAIK, the buildable/summonable units with Path abilities are: POD--Reaper, Black Plague, Plague Bringer (Liche is a buyable PoD unit). POL: Ent, Gardener (at Gold), Purger at Gold (or silver)...Path of Frost: Frost Witch, Doom Wolf (buyable Storm Lord). I think that's it....

Jean Luc, which one do you mean by Avernus?

BJ

Druid gets path of life at medal I think and nature elemental has POL to start out with.

Why must every sphere have multiples of every type? It should be ok if water has only spring rain for domain spells or fire has only fury for enchantment. As long as they are compensated in other ways. It makes them more different. (and you did respond to what I said about Halo, which is why I know you didn't read what I said completely)

Yeah gandalfs point sounds good on enchantment upkeep.

Oh and another thing that makes water great that missed gandalfs list. Healing showers. In tactical it can be awesome. SS + Poison domains reduced Res etc..

On geysers,its attack needs to be reduced to that of suffocate or have their attacks switched. Right now it has 5 points more attack then suffocate and can be used on more then suffocate can. Otherwise same cost and DAM. It doesn't make sense. Geyser is clearly the better spell then suffocate even though its identical otherwise.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-17-2007 @ 02:03 PM).]

Avernus the Beastmaster is an elven rogue with shooting stars but now I'm pretty sure he popped out when I was playing an original scenario that I saved under Dwiggs. He had a female model like a courtesan or a belly dancer. Anyway it's most likely just a case of Dwiggs/default resources mixing so you should probably ignore it. Sorry about the mistake.

Personally, I find the name "Swarm" or simply "Plague" preferable to "Plague of Fire Bugs."

Will Hands of Heaven strike one target twice or strike two random targets?

Maybe "fire bug swarm"?

I assume twice on same target. I don't think its possible to have it strike random targets.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-17-2007 @ 10:13 PM).]

The Fairy dragons are (IMO) too strong in dwiggs (matured fey folk dragon hatchlings). The fairy dragon has entangle strike, pixie dust and MAGIC IMMUNITY (and otherwise stats that are comparable to other level 4 fliers, but you can get them much quicker, of course). A flier with phase, entangle strike and pixie dust in itself (which can be equipped with liquid form and static shield) is probably too strong, but magic immunity (as was the case in upatch 1.4) makes it a game-wrecker, for it can't be melee attacked by ground units (well unless you manage to ram/web/entangle etc. it, but it's immune to double gravity). I suggest double gravity is changed in the same way it was done in the MP mod (give it all forms of attack except physical and magic, only gargoyles will be immune then, because of their res 20). If you don't change DG, remove magic immunity (could have magic protection at gold).
As is there are too few units that can successfully combat these fairy dragons; remember that low level shooters will have to catch them first, which is hard with their movement speed. I also suggest a downgrading of water sphere in the new update, maybe we can discuss how it should be done?

- I was thinking of great hail, for one thing (I do realize you wanted to replace this with chain lighting, but there seems to be objections to this for other reasons). I have the impression that the attack and damage value of great hail is the same in dwiggs as in the normal game (forgive me if I'm wrong though). But most attack spells in dwiggs have lower attack and damage values than in normal (some, like stoning, even have higher casting cost); this being the case, great hail seems to be too strong.

Other than this I'd have to do some research to come up with valid proposals for water sphere, so maybe I'll be back.

Kinda spoils the game if everybody plays fey folk with conqueror and water specialist...

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-17-2007 @ 10:09 PM).]

Gandalf did u ever try to mass faery dragons in dwiggs? maybe gaming quality is increased during months i m absent, but I cant remember any successful faery drag massing during time I played dwiggs, though I dont like magic immunity on them too as in theory its game breaker. Need to mention that their stats looks good only if we consider opposite army consists of walkers, while pegasus is stronger for almost half price, other strong lev3 fliers like demon and gargoyle seems provide more strength for less money too, so if we change immunity to protection - this dragon must get stats sufficient to kill knight or pegasus at least

And about great hail - try to play without precasting combat spells or catalyst abusing and balance will appear in no time

Well, in that game tangle strike simply wouldn't miss. It kept on hitting first strike. But its certainly not always like that.

Taunts messed up though. Its magic type only. That means baby fairy dragons who don't have will power and other magic immune units can't be taunted. Taunt should be physical as well.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-18-2007 @ 06:47 PM).]