Hi,

good points made by Air and TP. I'll try and address some of them:

Fire without Fury: Fire Halo is a great enchant. I'm hoping it will now prevent webbing, but I'll have to ask Merk about that. Fury never quite made sense to me....if a unit is furious, they should be wild about one thing, but not have the focus that willpower suggests. Bloodlust seems to fit this, especially if they are immune to fear. Also, as Fire has the best attack spells (I cant see any way to argue against this) and good summons, I don't see a problem with changing Fury.

Both Air and TP make a good point about the Storm Mage. I can rethink Hurl Starfire, though I do like having that ability rather than two lightning ones. The Storm Lord, TP, is a seldom available level 4 unit...it's easy to make it stronger via giving it other upgrades, such as cold attacks or more hitpoints, etc.

TP makes a good case for lightning Immunity instead of Strike on at the Altar of Storms. Any thoughts on this, anyone else?

I could make Tremors stronger, but with it hitting all units, I'm not sure whether that would be helpful for the attacker It's a great spell to use if you've got a strong hero with block and a mass of enemy troops, though.

I don't know how I forgot that Water gets Spring Rains, though that spell is a bit buggy with saves, I think (don't crops disappear?) I think Poison Domain makes sense for Water in that a mage who masters water could easily pollute it...then it makes that water sound when cast too. I would prefer to find another solution if Water Sphere is overpowered...could we concentrate our energies on that instead of arguing for change of Poison Domain, please?

Dark Angel and Poison Immunity....I don't think it would be a gamebreaker to give it to her, though the more poison immunity we hand out, the less relevant becomes the already much maligned Venemous Spit.

Maybe I should nerf Goblin level ones

I'd be happy to give Haste to Bomber at silver, as Goblins are race that I'd like to see build War Shrines.

Bloodlust on Butcher is a good call, I must say I should have thought of it. What about giving it at silver for the same reason as the Bomber? I'm not sure about willpower, though.

I'd prefer Wolfriders become level ones so that they can be churned out in hordes rather than increasing their quality.

With Goblin growth benefit, I think Beetle Rider can be hurried without too much difficulty. Making them level 2 upkeep might be a better solution than reducing cost, as players should be able to mass them without getting killed by upkeep.

I've taken medal benefits of the wee Goblin level 0, of course, though I did leave the same units as level ones with medal upgrades in a different spot for map makers to use if they wish.

Roger, Shadow Weed would create huge complications for me, unfortunately...I've kinda hitched my wagon to Bloodlust. However, the Altar of bloodlust will provide the benefits of Shadow Weed, and if you cover it with shrubs it might look like some wierd foliage

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-13-2007 @ 04:09 PM).]

You could use lightning bolts for your ability(since its so buggy, but if you made it range 1 like hurl lightning it wouldn't be I think), some adjustment to units with it (putting hurl lighting in place of lightning bolts in some circumstances) and maybe to hurl lightnings strength may be needed. Though I don't personally like the sound of this new ability, but its not a big deal for me as long as its not at the expensive of storm mage.

Doesn't fire halo give ignition? Ignition makes you immune to webbing. Or is fire halo bugged?

Well anyways I think fury makes sense. Anger making you oblivious to other things (I think it should have -1 def myself) including seduction, domination etc. And I like fire being the one non-life/death sphere that gives willpower(and cheaper willpower at that)

On the other hand I don't like, maybe even hate fire halo because it gives fire immunity. I always think of fire sphere as that dangerious sphere, powerful but don't use it unless you can take the heat. Halo rather ruins that.

Also it means that races like elves who have fire weak units have reason to take fire sphere(where as fire does not work well with elven theme, fire is a danger to the forests they live in) And fire races like deamons have less reason to get fire. But without halo it would be more the other way around. Since deamons can use fireball without harming their own units. I'd also like to see more fire units with exploding. Like fire elemental maybe. If explosion was just fire type then that would add to it.

So actually I'd like to see fire halo moved to some quest/structure reward(maybe nature? Thus giving reason for elves to pick nature shrine)

With Goblin growth benefit, I think Beetle Rider can be hurried without too much difficulty.

In order to one turn them you need a master guild and a order shrine/contruction trait. Otherwise you will be killed by rush costs.(and 3 less upkeep cost will take a long time to compensate for extra cost + rushing costs)

Where as they could one turn them at 60 gold with just seigeshope at city level. Its easier to mass them if you can one turn them of course (and you dont have units sitting around waiting for their production in the mean time)

Ok, I can see wolfriders as level 1. Their taunt is pretty handy but bombers have it too, just slower(without haste at least) without normal retaliation. Both of them level 1's that works.

Are you nerfing the stats of the level 0s to compensate for their instant gold medals as well? (maybe not completely, somewhere inbetween perhaps)

Maybe butchers could start out with bloodlust and get willpower at silver?

I think Poison Domain makes sense for Water in that a mage who masters water could easily pollute it...then it makes that water sound when cast too.

Thats like saying death ray makes sense for life sphere because a master of life would know how to destroy life. It just doesn't work for me.

And casting sounds can be changed no? If you really think its a water sound anyways.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-13-2007 @ 07:19 PM).]

Concerning shadow world

I want to see it useable. But you've set up dwiggs to make it very unuseable. If not making shadow world usable, then some version of the deep UG version replacement for shadow world being proposed I hear for 1.5 maybe?

But what to do about bloodlust?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-13-2007 @ 05:58 PM).]

Hi.

Quoted from The_Stranger:

Fire without Fury: Fire Halo is a great enchant. I'm hoping it will now prevent webbing, but I'll have to ask Merk about that.

You know, I was gonna post about this... and about the other changes, I will add or post a bigger one later because it was getting long and I was with limited time I will focus this Post on masking.

IMDNSHO, the masking stuff is really not an 'elegant' solution for a patch/mod/whatever, to use a term Swolte often used.

Why? Because it does not work 100%.

Sure, you can make Fire Halo mask 'webbed' (or others). BUT:
- It will still be possible to make the web/entangle/etc *attempt*
-Every time a Unit tries to web/etc a Unit with Fire Halo/ability that masks the effect, the Fire Halo/spell cast animation will repeat, making a very odd effect during battles.
- The AI *will* try to web/w.e. a unit even though the Unit is immune to it by masking; AI just can't handle it. This effectively murders AI completely, as you can have hordes of spiders trying to web a unit they could melee to death!!!(or entangle etc)
- As many things Masked, they might still be effective, whether you can read or not. For most things I tested, the effect will be there. Like Damnation, Poison, Vertigo.
- Crashes. When I tested making a Mod with the *only* change of 1 or 2 masked effects, like bless giving immunity to Cursed, there were random crashes when Units were hurling black bolts at units with bless.

I also want to comment (getting long duuh)

-Infection can no longer be used on Undead units.
If that is made by masking, test it - I don't think it will work. If it does, that is really weird, lol. I know machines are immune to Infection. And if I recall correctly, masking 'possessed' does not work and a Unit can still be possessed, so I think posses/infect and such effects are hard coded and cant be masked.

-Blood Lust now a Fire sphere spell (gives immune to panic)
Did you also test this? The Unit might still run and just not have the 'panicked' effect written.

[This message has been edited by Merkraad (edited 09-13-2007 @ 05:57 PM).]

When I tested making a Mod with the *only* change of 1 or 2 masked effects, like bless giving immunity to Cursed, there were random crashes when Units were hurling black bolts at units with bless.

Plus its one of those things that doesn't even work. Griff has it setup like that for coma. While I haven't seen it crash anything, the cursed status is only hidden. Its most certainly still there.

I was hoping someone else had tested poison domain and panicked

Wouldn't haste on bombers cause a world of pain to the Frostlings? With haste they could close in on their targets from a great distance (with Frostlings practically never getting a chance to kill them off before they approach, unless themselves hasted and/or "seeker-ed") and still be able to "detonate" and with the Frostlings' fire weakness...well, you know... Not a big issue, obviously, but it might be worth considering.

As for angels and poison, why not simply protection at silver (or straight away) and immunity at gold?

Roger, Shadow Weed would create huge complications for me, unfortunately...I've kinda hitched my wagon to Bloodlust. However, the Altar of bloodlust will provide the benefits of Shadow Weed, and if you cover it with shrubs it might look like some wierd foliage

I need something which gives shadow walking ability, temporarily, and Shadow Weed was perfect for doing just that. Not sure why you need various things (such as the shrine you mentioned) to appear numerous times in the editor, but it doesn't really matter, I'll just make the map with BNW instead

[This message has been edited by RogerRabid (edited 09-14-2007 @ 05:48 AM).]

Lightning immunity is close to nothing, compared to lightning strike, but good thing that u don't need to rebalance big spider and executioner as they get almost nothing

Roger,

I'm really not sure what you're referring to...in fact I think you're overreacting. If not, please forgive any ignorant remarks I made that rankled you. I think that I misunderstood your Shadow Weed request. Please check your inbox.

Air, I don't understand your comment...but it's late here. Try actually telling me what you mean instead of teasing me

BJ

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-14-2007 @ 01:02 AM).]

Lighting strikes stunning ability is better than lightning imm, like it is

Guess the gobos 1st lvls wonīt get exp anymore? (itīs a good thing, they donīt deserve any xp)

I mean lightning immunity is minor ability which u can use rare, so its little strange to compare its with lightning strike Though seems lightning immune spider will be perfect unit to siege water spec player capitol, so it still can be interesting, but in this case building have to give resource bonus too to inspire its construction.

First off, lightning strike would be too much for DE. You underestimate their usefulness Air.

Also I mentioned a few ways other then immunity to static shield it can be useful. Like being able to hurl lightning with storm mage even with your units there. And being able to cast chain lightning even when your units are locked into combat with them. Otherwise you make the special structure for the executionars and storm mages. No need for any additional bonuses from structure.

Speaking of unnecessary additional bonuses. I don't see why human special structure needs to give +2 resistance as well. As though willpower for all your units and a leadership unit with decent melee, holy strike, & dispel (turn undead too?) Aren't enough of a reason to make it. (gives oracle unit too right? or is that something else)

If you want to boost humans, make them give construction bonus closer to the other construction races. They start out with like only +5 build where race like orcs start with +15.. IIRC(if I remember correctly) And a mana negative(which should remain but should not be forgotten)

`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~

Concerning the advice I gave earlier about haste on bombers. I had some further thoughts. Won't that kinda cut into warg rider units usefulness? Both are taunt units. warg rider more for exploring, or was. But with haste a bomber will move faster UG or on road then a warg rider. 12 squares for bomber compared to 10 for wolf rider.(or 11 for wolf rider if their speed was increased by 1 to 33) Above ground off road but no forest they would have the same speed. 8 squares.

In combat they're main usefulness is in taunt. Both units can do that and with bomber having haste it would be able to get in best taunt positions easy as wolfrider. Outside of taunt blowing up usually will do more damage then a wolfrider can do in melee before croaking (but its tough to say with rng) I'm not sure what to do about this. I still like haste on bombers with silver. But the only solution I can see to make warg rider usefulness not too ecliped by haste bomber is to improve them a bit. Like forest travel at start and block or vision 1 at silver? &/or +1 mp so they have 33 MP? 1hp(maybe 2?) more would mean they would regain 2 health per turn instead of 1hp (1 for rider, one for warg/wolf) But then I see your case for not improving them I think strange so I don't l know...

A warg rider can survive a little better then bomber if their taunt target reaches them. Another round of distracting taunts is helpful. And warg rider can get in free shots and potentially do more damage then bombers.. if other units have zapped retaliations. And assuming target isnt too tough that warg rider doesnt have a tough time getting in hits.

Ok, at least a warg rider should have poison strike.


Concerning bombers and frostlings..
A good point but many of the better frostling units have no fire weakness & may have fire protection as well. Earlier game its a issue but remember you have to build war shrine for haste and warshrine comes with negatives. I don't know about you but I usually build seige workshop and monastery first, which means something like that would come a bit latter.

`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~`,~

BTW does anyone notice that warg riders look like they're riding on a wolf? Or at least the unit designated to be a wolf. Not a Warg, which is a separate & much tougher unit with completely different graphics.

Not only that but if you read their flavor text, it talks about them taming and riding wolves, not wargs.

Maybe they should be called/named wolf riders?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-14-2007 @ 01:37 PM).]

True,

Many Frostling advanced units have f. weakness, like the Mammoth Rider, Winter's Queen and the Frost Giant and the Midwinter Hut isn't something you really spam (unless maybe on a big map) but the same can be said for the War Shrine so yeah, you're probably right; it's unlikely that the hasted bomber would create significant problems for the Frostlings. I just thought it should be considered.

I agree with your points on the Cult of Storms. Lighting imm. opens up some interesting choices (I always loved how with the Frostlings/Undead/Goblins you could use frost/death/poison breath without having to worry about hitting your units) and lightning strike would probably be overboard (just don't take away the mana/research bonus from the Cult of Storms. If it's felt that the DE are in need of a buff maybe just give lightning strike to the Mage of Storms (he is supposed to be the master of everything lightning ).

And I just have to say that I really don't like chain lightning as a water spell, everything about it screams "Air". And +3 def on stone skin seams a bit much, not sure though...

[This message has been edited by Jean_Luc (edited 09-14-2007 @ 02:53 PM).]

Is chain lightning on water? Yeah that should be moved to air I think.

It's not right now but Stranger listed it as a proposed change.

A few additional observations: Lizardman Shaman's description (probably imported from AoW1) says he can turn undead which he can't (for now) and maybe the Dragon Turtle should have "Dragon" just for the heck of it. Would go with it's description. Although that might make it underpowered against knights with liquid form. :P

I suppose the idea behind that is since water has static shield and static shield rendors chain lightning and lightning bolt useless for the enemy.. But it does make water more powerful for the same reason lightning immunity makes DE more powerful.

And for that same reason it may make water too powerful and lightning immunity on DE less powerful.

Stupid enchantments that give immunities. I wish there was a way to take it off.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-14-2007 @ 05:23 PM).]

Yeah? Well water probably shouldn't have static shield either. Lightning/electricity based effects belong with air (although I am aware that balance is an issue). Purifying Waters, Healing Showers, Poison Domain (unlike some, I can tolerate it being in water) and Liquid Form should be enough for water to handle most things (its summons aren't the best though).

Well that also ruins some of the usefulness of lightning immunity if static shield and chain lightning are on the same sphere. But I suppose you can't always afford to put static shield on everything..

As far as balance between wind and water.. I don't know..

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-14-2007 @ 05:32 PM).]

True but it's still pretty useful (in the end lightning imm. isn't the best part of static shield ) and it's always been a recurring theme in AoW; generally races who are immune to a certain element use that same element to harm others. Look at Goblins/Lizards and poison, Undead and death strike/magic, Archons and holy effects, Frostlings and cold etc. And fire halo (of which I see you're not a fan of) is in the same sphere as the rest of "fire magic". But it makes sense imo and works within the game. Although I might agree that spells like Fire Halo and Static Shield shouldn't give immunities to their respective elements, maybe just protections.

Don't underestimate immunities.

Anyways if a sphere gives immunity then races opposite to that sphere type want it. If a sphere does not then races of that alignment want it.

One exception of sorts is lizards, who are themed water and have static weakness. Which makes water work for them as a sphere type.

True but I don't think that means that a spell that gives fire imm. should be given to the water sphere for example. Spheres should be able to "hurt"/affect each other, not become mutually immune.

It's nice to see some civilized back and forth in a games forum

In regards to Water, Lightning makes sense to me because Lightning (or electric energy) can be transferred via liquid. Cold spells didn't make sense to me...I think of snow and such as coming from the sky.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 09-14-2007 @ 10:00 PM).]

Did you read my last long post stranger?

Well if that is the measure of consideration, lightning comes from the sky/air. Well technically a equal charge comes up from the ground to meet the bolt from the sky. But for most peoples consideration lighting comes from the sky anyways.

If static shield and chain lightning are on the same sphere it makes natural lightning immunity less valuable.

Quoted from Jean_Luc:

True but I don't think that means that a spell that gives fire imm. should be given to the water sphere for example.

I sort agree, though there is some value to that D&D has fire spells that protect from cold and cold spells that protect from fire I think, & it works. Fire halo with cold protection or immunity instead of fire immunity would have made alot of sense.

I meant though that they should have kept out immunities from enchantments altogether, at least on any sphere. That is what I was driving at. I especially hate fire halo and wish it was removed from fire.

Fire halo also has a unbalance effect where it suddenly becomes notably more powerful on any custom map with alot of lava. At least its not as absurdly cheap as it used to be.

Speaking of immunities, theres a unit called "syron" quest reward both the unit and ability to summon them. Immunities to everything except physical. Block. Nice stats, pray your opponent doesn't have liquid form with these. Its too powerful. Especially as a summonable.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-15-2007 @ 03:20 AM).]

A somewhat disorganized discussion in here.

Stranger: I fear that giving the dark elves the ability to get lightning strike from their racial structure will make them too strong, it's a pretty powerful ability. The structure would have to be VERY expensive to compensate. I suggest if you want to strengthen the dark elves, do it in a different way (of course we could test it first but I think the outcome would be the same).

I agree chain lightning should be air, why not just keep great hail in water and chain lightning in air sphere?

I would also like a debate as to whether it would be a good idea to generally lower the casting and upkeep cost of unit enchantments in dwiggs.

Quoted from Truepurple:

If static shield and chain lightning are on the same sphere it makes natural lightning immunity less valuable

Why???

Quoted from Truepurple:

Fire halo also has a unbalance effect where it suddenly becomes notably more powerful on any custom map with alot of lava. At least its not as absurdly cheap as it used to be

Fire halo is SO expensive in dwiggs (even for dwiggs!) - 24 cps for casting, 10 mana in upkeep. How many custom maps for dwiggs with a lot of lava do you know of, TP? IF someone made a map with a lot of lava, is it conceivable that he meant for players to be able to make their units fire immune, so they could walk over them? Would it be fair to say that free movement and liquid form/water walking are equally "unbalanced" on maps with lots of mountains/woodland/water?
I take it we agree that most dwiggs games are played on random maps, or on custom maps that do not have a lot of lava, so arguing for removing fire immunity from fire halo has no bearing on multiplayer games?

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-15-2007 @ 07:14 AM).]

Hi all,

Quoted from Truepurple:
If static shield and chain lightning are on the same sphere it makes natural lightning immunity less valuable

Why???

Because lightning immunity will become too specific... (only valuable against air sphere and without effect against others spheres of magic ! )

In the same order of idea, I don't agree with reducing the cost of enchantment casting & upkeep !
Dwiggs enchantements are expensive (good balance vs. AI I think) and a lot of units have an integrated enchantement (single or with silver or gold medal)

Greetings

LaL

[This message has been edited by Lal (edited 09-15-2007 @ 09:32 AM).]

Lightning immunity will still be useful against units
with lightning strike, lightning bolts or hurl lightning, won't it?
Suppose all forms of magic using lightning attack were available in one sphere only (water, in this case), that doesn't make the immunity less valuable, just more specific.

Making enchants more expensive because AI doesn't use them makes sense if you play against AI, but not if you play against human players though; so I guess the question is whether Stranger intends dwiggs for use online or in single player mode.

[This message has been edited by Gandalf_DK (edited 09-15-2007 @ 11:52 AM).]

Lighting bolt is bugged and not alot of units have it. Only two units I know of have hurl lightning and one of them is rare. There are a few lightning strike units, mostly DE. Yes it protects against static shield but that requires a specific situation with a opponent who has it/water one of six spheres.(nature shrine might give static shield though) Also lighting protection does little against static shield (maybe with a bit of physical protection..)

That means a decent portion of the value/use of natural lightning immunity is the ability to cast a spell like chain lightning when close to the enemy. Except static shield does the same thing making natural immunity unnecessary. So if they are on the same sphere that portion of the value of natural lightning immunity/protection goes out the window as well.

Problem with halo though is exactly the points you made. RMG its less, custom maps with lava maps (rare as they may be) its more. But its cost etc doesn't shift. Mountains/woodland/water on the other hand are found on most any map.

I do agree enchantments in general could use a little bit of a upkeep nerf. It can be so very painful just to keep a few enchantments on units. I suppose yes you can take them off when not needed as immediately & use them on less units. But then needs can arise very suddenly and taking enchantments on and off is a pain in the ass & slow(and isn't cheap in mana either and uses alot of CP)

It also reduces the value of taking multi-cosmo sphere pick. Since the main reason to do that is the enchantments and its expensive enough to keep the enchantments of one sphere.

I speak from a online perspective of course. Which is the way dwiggs is best. Its too complicated for stupid AI. So I think dwiggs should be designed for online or perhaps PBEM games, not SP games.

On the other hand. It does help with the fire halo/static shield thing since not every unit can have it in many a situation. And alot of structures give mana. But usually not nearly enough unless your loaded to the hilt with built up towns/magic shrines. Or you've waited a long time and built up a mana reserve that you can afford to to drain for a week or so to gear up for a major battle.(thus making dwiggs longer though)

On a similar note, and I don't remember if I made this suggestion or not but, wizard tower giving 30 mana. Not 30 research. (spell research could possibly be reduced a little as well in combination with that)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 09-15-2007 @ 01:43 PM).]

good question indeed (even if I think they are only few online players if you compare with single players, but I remember with emotion the first time of Dwiggs propose to play with his mod on gamespy)

about lightning strike, lightning bolts or hurl lightning : they are not a lot of units with this abilities (IMO death immunity for exemple is a better skill than lightning immunity)

It's always difficult to balance a game (or a mod) !
Good luck for The Stranger

LaL

An item, a blue ring that gives changling ability is bugged. It turns the alignment of heroes that wear it to good. Probably because of the changling ability.

I'm not sure the units don't keep the original alignment as well, otherwise I would suggest that factor just be put into the items name/function description.