Fire priest are good enough. Werenīt there firebreath at gold? And only thing u need is temple for them, with builders hall u may mass those in 2 turns on many citys for defence. Fire bolts have better att also than cold.

Barbarians are one things which are too strong with only 50 cost. +10 cost to those.

Chop chop dwiggers all so lazy nowadays, come in gs someday.

how about making mummy a better unit? it only has fireweakness instead holyweakness thats the only "advantage"

After next week, I will have some more time on weekends to play And there should be a final version out by then also. I agree, Barbarians should cost a wee bit more. I've been meaning to change that.

I'd like to take this opportunity again to thank everyone who posts at this thread and plays the mod. Hopefully, a more or less final product will be out soon, and I can enjoy playing it with you.

Best,

bj

very strange to say barbarians are too strong, with which units u compare them? maybe with new crusader that has highest gold cost and lowest power among all other lev1 units in game ?:P btw charioter and avenger are close to get this prize among lev2, their stats and price seems relict from very early versions where lev4 were with 8 def and 600 cost 60 cost for de archer !!! just no comments.also some crazy talking here that resulting in units change is very annoying, for example i saw purgers in action last game - awful result. and now they even have death weakness - very nice :P i really cant believe they still keep passwall and holy bolts, guess some more spam from one famous theorist about them and they will lost this abilities in final version (with slightly casting cost increase of course)

Air u sound like ur friend merlin soon

Crusaders cannot be build in 1 turn at begining of game thatīs the idea. Cost is not any problem just that how many turns u can build them. And crusaders are best 1st lvl and overpowered against evil alingments. To get desert barges and 16 barbarians with them in turn 15-20 anyone will fall. Well 16 crusaders will do same.

No one was saying Barbarians were too strong, just that 60 gold was a more accurate reflection of their value, which I think it is: high attack, charge, fast, wall climbing. With a siege workshop and constructor, you can still churn them out at 60 gold a pop.

The purger still keeps its strong points: ranged attack, pass wall, and floating. I can't see how it would be rendered useless by the addition of death weakness or the loss of one defense point.

Charioteer and Avengers are level 2s, and probably the strongest two of them. I've never had a complaint about their cost. It sounds to me like you played Life and Archons for the first time ever and were perhaps frustrated

In general, I think it's best to take a look at the Excel file, compare stats and racial bonuses before deciding something is good or bad. The Crusader compares nicely to the Orc Bruiser in terms of power, and its gold cost reflect this.

Again, compare the archer. Is there a better level one archer than the Eyes of Dusk? The poor Archon archer used to cost 60 gold! and it can't compare to an eyes of Dusk in effectiveness. So how is 60 gold exorbitant for such a useful unit? If you had to cast enchant weapon on 8 archers, you would have 64 mana in upkeep, but you get that for free with eyes of Dusk, along with stats that are equal to or better than other archers.

I'm looking forward to a game or two this weekend, where feedback can be given to me more directly

Regards,

bj

Avengers pwn with ew, 3 different strikes and can be made in 2 turns with warshrines and city size. Still ppl keep building crusaders which are less usable. Tho gold penalty on archons are bad so better just do titans. And only silly ones makes archers to lower ur income, archers canīt attack

*geez* no one cares about babarians, what about the mummys?

more power to them!

lets not waste more bandwith with lvl1 units.... ;-)

arcon archer price of course too expensive as price of all other archon lev1 and lev2 and any cosmos wizard can have free enchanted weapon in cap and so de archer wouldnt be best. crusader has 9 att, 7 dam, 8 def, 9 res, 15 hp, holy strike, block, mark1, throw spear and this for 80, bruiser has 11 att, 8 dam, 7 def, 4 res, block, charge and 70 price. archons have gold penalty and have to pay 110 gold to build crusader early in 1 turn (order+siege workshop) orcs with same buildings dont need to hurry so pay only 70. so i think result of comparing is clear with human infantry will be same. elf and de infantry can be built in 1 turn only with order or with war+siege workshop for stronger stats and so on, crusader with holy champ could be useful even vs evil higher level units, now its just very expensive infantry and nothing more. charioter cost almost as lev3 units, but compare it to any lev3 cavalry and result will be clear. or with cat masters who has not much lower stats for half price and its even not popular unit avenger with its 6 def and 16 hp is so nice target for archery and stranger u didnt hear anything about archon lev2 as noone ever used them btw waiting for desert barge if u going to use barbarians is instant suicide :P

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 10-11-2006 @ 00:36 AM).]

U can test 8 crusaders vs 8 bruisers . Bruisers will fall itīs certain since crusaders have holychampion and holystrike, they even get ew on silver. Orcs are crappy enough so their ok to have better low lvls, only with lifesteal they get usable and res is too low. Werenīt mummy just one unit which cannot be build? But yes they need resurgence

crusaders dont have holy champion anymore, stranger removed it and decreased price only to 80. also even old crusaders couldnt be tested 8 vs 8 bruisers, more realistic way is 8 medalled crusaders vs 16 bruisers :P

I've played Archons with Life enough times to realise that Avengers without bolts totally suck when compared to Crusaders. Pathetic defense, average hp and mp...whats the use of three different strikes with ew when you can get your head handed to you easily? Charioteers are the staple...better defense, hp, ranged attack and only slightly costlier. You are talking about comparisons - get 8 Avengers vs 8 Bruisers and test it. And Archons, gold penalty and war shrine? A nice idea...
And Archons need Order Shrine for their high-cost units or Nature Shrine to alleviate the gold penalty and increase growth for hurrying. Stranger, you are probably a more frequent player of Archons than me, how many times have you built a War Shrine in your cap?

Now, to the crusader. The current crusader is nothing but an average-in-all-stats melee and expensive to boot! Wildblade - probably the most fearsome infantry in the whole game and he costs less than Crusader (Throw blade with 7 att is far more powerful and effective than throw spear). Bruiser - again high attack and charge, cheaper. They were one of the better infantry - at silver, they can chew through toughies too with their charge. Undead - death strike, resurgence, cheaper. Barbarians - Stranger already listed their advantages. Humans - low cost, similar stats, absence of holy strike and so on. Where was the reasoning to remove Holy Champ from the Crusader? You remember it was done once before and it had a disastrous result in the actual testing?

And if you recall the discussion we had many a night ago about Archons - they suffer terribly in a long game, and all those who say 'no' should try them out before posting it. Which was one of the reasons a small research bonus was given to them - and now more nerfs? We also discussed a ranged bolt attacker (bolt attack at start) for the Archons atleast in the Sanctum - something like atleast what the Brethren Mage was. Which I took to assume - Archons needed a little more boost, and now a nerf?

And all this talk of evil units needing a boost - they are as good as it gets now. Goblins - incredible growth and dirt cheap units, Undead - research bonus and decent units with lower levels sustainable in numbers with healing, Orcs - powerful and normal growth, Demons - good bonus and decent units, Dark Elves - cool and effective units to lend a vast variety of options.
All the evil races match up well with the good races except against Archons and here too, they don't fare that badly. And Archons have a gold penalty (this hurts very bad in the long run and in the initial phase when everyone can hurry an infantry now and then) and all units have a pretty high cost. Sounds like a good enough balance to me.

Just like people asking for unit boosts do so after playing with them, ppl should also play with the units they are asking to nerf before asking...playing against them can tilt your view any which way. Yes, your 16 goblin swordsmen lost against a bunch of crusaders - but what was the cost and effort to field your 16 swordsmen compared to the bunch of crusaders? And how soon can you do it again? Play Archons and you lose a major battle - you are screwed a little more than when playing any other race coz the cost of rebuilding an army is way higher for Archons than other races.

You want stats? Let me give you some, from the excel file itself.

The average (average is without lvl4 and temple units and machines, btw) Archon cost is 131 - which is almost 20 higher than the highest Evil race cost (Undead) and nearly 40 more than the second highest Evil race cost (Demons) and more than 15 compared to the next highest cost among all races. Average attack higher than the Demons (I'll ignore the DE becoz their units have different kinds of strikes - poison, death, cold, lightning and cool abilities) and average defense equal to most (again, I can ignore the Gobbos because of their dirt cheap cost). So, in a game where all here are discussing only about combat, the average Archon soldier costs much more to field and has not much difference when compared to att and def...statistically. Individual comparisons can be done, but as a whole, the game offers enough alternatives that the bigger picture is more balanced between good and evil - just get that Holy Champ back!

I think I can rant on for another couple of paragraphs but let me stop here....

and normal price for low lev archon units would be nice too btw whats up with karagh? decreased stats? also with decreased fury, very nice :P

*lol* timelord.

you write in favour for the archons still they are taken often in online games were i was present, i agree giving the research bonus comparable to undead, but that must be enough, no ridiculous unit beefs.

i see goblins and undead not dominating any online games.....so something must be wrong what you just said and mummy is a joke of an undead it i think it has neither regeneration nor resurgence last version of dwiggs i played.

btw, resurgence and especially regeneration are the most overrated abilities in the game, they are next to useless compared to powerful strike abilities and big stat increases such like holy champion which just means to hit them with +2att +2dam. by all logic and the limitations of units/stack this is totally overpowered. only a real smart guy can win with undead or goblins vs archons

all these games i played with air, stranger, and you none took undead ever, i was the only one, while i saw archons on regular basis.

i suggest stop the powerplay in favour for archons and lets do some balance and justice here.

and lets not talk about goblins, cause i would have to write a lot here why i would not play this race, cheaper inital cost with weak stats and not even early transportVII just does not work in this kind of game, where only quality units count something, thus their non-existing presence.

all things said, based on last version of dwiggs i played online so sorry if something was changed the right way now

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 10-11-2006 @ 08:20 PM).]

Round strike, holy champion are enough to evil alignments. Undead were pretty bad, if deathknights get block and more hp or def they can be builded. Dunno why reapers have cold imm tho . If we look statictics would be silly to pick anything else than gobos or halflings, but stats canīt be calculated since there are too many skills. At least gobos and halflings get much more income than others easily. And crusaders shouldnīt have holy champion.

Timelord,

You make some good points as do others. I should point out that Crusaders did not fare distastrously when I tested them in the past without Holy Champ. What I found personally disastrous was the amount of complaining that you and Air inundated me with. Now, you are both excellent players whose opinions I respect, but I want to look at the unit and the race as a whole before making this decision. In my opinion, there is no reason to build an Avenger unless Holy Champion is not given to a unit earlier in the Archon build Queque. As you stated, why build Avengers when Crusaders are the staple unit with the same ability? So, Crusaders should still be the staple unit imo, but as Holy Champ is a special ability, it should not be given to a staple unit but to a niche unit, much as Unholy Champ goes to the Undead Knight rather than the Swordsman. A Crusader has throw spear, block, willpower, and Holy strike. I've also bumped up the movepoints slightly since the "Crusader" idea represents a more mobile unit. If you do build a Warshrine and accept that you need two turns to build this unit, you get the following: a 6 upkeep unit with 16 hp, 9 def, 11 attack, 9 res, 9 damage, magic strike, throw spear with magic and an attack of 17 (18?), and 30 mp. That unit would beat a lot of level two units, frankly. But assuming you build an Order Shrine and hurry them out at one a pop, I think they're still a good unit. If anything, a slight price decrease rather than a buffing should be in order, since they are a staple more than a special unit.

In regards to the Avenger, it's not a unit you're going to rush a capital with, obviously But, if you have an open fight with primarily evil melee units, and this happens a lot, particularly with Orcs, this unit will perform very well, especially with a starting bolt attack.

And here I will throw down a challenge: this weekend I will play Archons exclusively, and Air (or Timelord) you may choose any evil race you like, and we'll see how we fare

Karagh stats did not decrease significantly, only the attack by one. Also, fury no longer reduces defense, so that penalty is out. For 340 gold, the Karagh is a good value.

I was considering giving the Mummy resurgance last night, though for Hall of the Doomed, I think the "animated" would cancel it out. But it might still be useful if you start with a Mummy in your stack

I tend to agree with Muna, though as he notes, the abilities of so many races make things too complex to state decisively that one race is the best. Unless the map is very small and rushing is the best option, Haflings and Gobbos are probably my two favourite races.

I might be able to play thursday. Friday to sunday is a prepaid scifi convention. Will you be able to be on thursday stranger? I could try other races for you.

Quoted from Stranger:

Anything new in you playing Archons, Stranger?
Challenge noted and will be taken.

@DM,
I don't think resurgence/regeneration are overrated. It provides for a sustainable army in the initial stage. Of course, for ppl who primarily sit back and go for lvl3s, it may not sound a good idea.
I don't like playing Undead or Goblins, just like you never play a good race. Call it something in the psyche, if you will. I've played every other race many times online. IIRC, we were able to play together for that one month or so I was in Germany when I was trying primarily neutral/evil races.
Rare was the case I took a good race when Stranger was in the game because I know he will always pick Archons and Aria falls for him...always!!

When rest 4th lvls have mostly 2 strikes karaghs donīt have anything. Poison strike fits nicely enough.

better not reduce his stats to number that requires special strikes :P - 1 att, -1 dam, -1 res and only +1 def, just insanity :P

Yes, Timelord i remember you earned some honour in my book by taking demons, which are not that easy to play too. :-)

If you want to add +1 def to karaghs, please don't do it via fury. Fury deserves a -1 def. Its the only enchantment that has a minus and it makes sense to fury.

If you want to boost fury any give it more attack/damage rather then eliminate its minus that gives it character please.

Karaghs are about brute force, not poisoning. Enough gobs have poisoning that if any boosts in karaghs were needed, one should look elsewhere.(more damage for example, not saying they need it or not)

Resurgance means effectivelly over 25% health bonus, I say over because something could do 20 damage to something with 1 health and it will still come back in 3 turns. It also means much less unit loss in autocombat & more willingness to send great units into dangerous situations in PVP. Regen has less use, but its still hardly useless. It can be priceless without a healer in the group, or with a healer but after an extensive battle with alot of deeply wounded troops.

Gobs can 1 turn a unit in a town it just produced. Thats where its unit low cost really shines.

Crusader minus holy champ:
I totally agree with strangers logic, they should be a standard unit & holy champ is a special. They are pretty tough level 1's. Comparable to boar riders & boar riders are nice level 1's. Boar riders get an extra square & charge. Crusaders get throw spear with marksman(with high attack can do nasty damage to level 3's or 4's), holy strike & will power. For 90 gold the crusader is a better deal it seems.(the willpower can be especially valuable sometimes in dwiggs) The only issue is whether you can 1 turn them assuming constructer, seige workshop, and order shrine at town level.

Perhaps the only better level 1 is wildblade(in relation to cost at least) I suggested to stranger that wildblade have a limited number of shots, perhaps 6 shots?(throw blade 3, twice?) Representing how many blades they can practically carry.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 10-12-2006 @ 05:19 PM).]

While I agreed to Stranger's challenge, I felt there was no reason why I should stop posting in favor of the Crusader...

Whats so special about Holy Champion is what I want to know? Its a situational enchantment...compare it to charge which 7 other lvl1s have and only the boar rider costs more than the Crusader by 10gp...or to death and poison strikes which are more powerful than holy strike - which is shared among 3 other lvl1s...Throw Spear? Literally of no use when compared to ranged attacks with multiple shots as one miss and thats it. And with high attack can do nasty damage? Looks like someone has to revisit the damage roll calculation in SM. For everytime it has made more than 8 dam, it has done damage below 4 hp 5 or 6 times over the course of time I have played.

Lets consider the cost factor - a very important one - as a base and compare some stuff (This should please the theorists among us ). Lets also ignore the lvl1 infantries below 50 gp (they are anyway powerful ). Above 50 gp, we have 7 lvl1 infantries

Possessed (60 gp) - cause fear, fury, holy weakness with 16 hp and 28 mp...an extremely durable unit which gains the ultimate promotion with gold. Can be produced in 2 turns at start.

Hellion (60 gp) - block, death strike, magic strike, steal enchantment. Once again, an extremely cool unit to use, especially with the options at the dark elves' disposal. Can be produced in 2 turns at start.

Wildblade (60 gp) - forestry, block, extra strike, throw blade, life domain. Extremely versatile unit for both att and def and doesn't need a healer at all due to life domain. Again, can be produced in 2 turns at start.

Bruiser (70 gp) - block, charge with highest attack among lvl1s (11 att) and highest dam (8 dam). With Orc production bonus, can be produced in 2 turns at start and can be easily rushed with a siege workshop in place.

Glade Faun (70 gp) - magic strike, charge, throw blade, seeker, gets MM levels with medals. Again, can be produced in 2 turns at start.

Boar rider (90 gp) - block, charge, 32 mp, highest hp among lvl1s. With dwarven prod bonus, can be produced in 2 turns at start. Dwarves also get a 15 gold bonus at town level (start level), so its not a big deal to rush them especially if you have/get a monastery/siege workshop in place.

Crusader (80 gp) - block, throw spear, MMI, holy strike. Enchanted weapon with silver. Requires 3 turns at start to be produced. Gold penalty implies hurrying is a problem. War shrine to get medal implies a further growth and happiness penalty (happiness is also crucial since Archons are pure good alignment - what would be ok with other good races is a sure-shot rebellion with a War Shrine. If player is not a pure Life wiz, the problem is compounded)

Stat-wise, all the above units are comparable. Race-wise, only the Archons have a penalty that hurts. Growth bonuses for Elves and Dwarves are offset by prod/gold bonus for Dwarves and mana bonus for Elves. While looking at the excel sheet might prove a good base, playing Archons is tough due to their alignment, gold penalty and high cost units.

Not that most produce crusaders before workshop or order shrine.

You missed willpower in that list for crusader. Willpower is very helpful in dwiggs considering the number of units with dominate, seduce, cause fear, as well as taunt and maybe one or two others Im missing regarding humaniods. Drain will is more rare then any of those.

Some enchantments give willpower but not all spheres have such enchantments, nor do you always get it early enough or able to afford giving it to all units.

Oh and wildblade has just about the same stat levels as bruiser.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 10-12-2006 @ 05:46 PM).]

Speaking of boar riders, I still say the axeman needs something to differentiate it a bit and make it more than a poor man's boar rider. Perhaps willpower and poison immunity? The boar rider would still be a better unit generally, but at least there might be a few situations where you'd build an axeman instead if you had the gold and production for both.

I also think the wildblade gets a little too much, personally - elf abilities, decent stats, a ranged attack, AND extra strike? It's not really a major balance issue, though...

[This message has been edited by jwj442 (edited 10-12-2006 @ 10:03 PM).]

You make a good point for axeman. Willpower would work for them. Perhaps a little more defense too.

Heh, i donīt think so axemans need anything more, they cost 50 and have almost same stats than boar riders which cost 90. Also berserkers have willpower so axemans donīt need it. If axemans need something, they need more cost like barbarians . And dwarfs get stransports too to make them faster.

yeah, i tought too axemen need more costs instead

u both are crazy :P

Berserkers have a very different use from axeman/boar riders so it would not be a problem in that regard for axeman to have willpower too. Maybe even just willpower at gold for axeman? No time to look at the issue any closer now.

But jwj442 is right, so little reason to build axeman over boar riders. Lack of charge, considerably less movement, less health, slightly less other stats I think. 2 turns/90 gold verse 1 turn 50 gold but both level 1, unless its emergancy troop gathering/am in need of cannon fodder, I just about always make the boar riders.(+ a few circumstances where axeman takes two turns or boar rider one)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 10-13-2006 @ 06:11 PM).]