i just thought holy weakness is too brutal on the reaper. on the other units its rather ok they have many abilities too. giving some units wasteland concealment would do it for me, path of frost is a bit stronger than path of decay cause it cannot be removed by rejuvenate and only 1 race can have cropfields there. also tried fire storm on snow fields it won't melt only ice will melt. if there are lots of archons on the map, then its migration time for the undead.

so, stranger, give wasteland concealment to vampire and spectre, i think it makes a lot of fun and is logical.

You'll be happy to know that in the patch we've been playing with, several undead units have WConceal, including the vampire and plague bringer. Also, the Reaper doesn't have Holy Weakness, and spectres have higher move points. Great minds must think alike, eh?

So, with path of decay on plague bringer, you can stick some vampires in his stack (they also start with pass wall now) and have an invisible army.

BTW, this new patch will be released as soon as a certain someone from the Netherlands sends me the Lizard Cities. So, perhaps we could put a little "good natured" pressure on him to complete this task?

bj

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 08-24-2006 @ 04:38 PM).]

Nice suggestions. I wouldn't like WC on the Spectre though. It doesn't look like a unit that is concealed.

while i type this karf and stranger have a battle fey folk is very tough

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 08-24-2006 @ 10:38 PM).]

and probably she can decide to glow on will, yer guys lack fantasy :P

you don't see ghost like creatures easily if they don't want to be seen

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-25-2006 @ 00:04 AM).]

edit: anyways, now that we are at it, i noticed flying glutton in dwiggs. how can i get him? unit is called glutton magi in additon many, many units are invisible in the new version of dwiggs. like repopulator for demons. why is he invisible now? in old dwiggs 1.4 i can see this unit. what does cause this?

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-25-2006 @ 09:59 AM).]

Dwigg's 1.4 Level 1 Summons: (Relative to Lurker)

-=Salamander (Fire)=-
Pros: Fire Strike, Ignition, Fire Immune, +2 Atk, +1 Dmg, +2 Def, +4 Mov. No "Animal"
Cons: +10 Cost, -1 HP, No Range, No Swimming, No Water Concealment

-=Dire Boar (Earth)=-
Pros: Forestry, Vision I, Charge, +1 Dmg, +4 Def, +3 HP, +4 Mov
Cons: -1 Atk, -1 Res, No Range, No Swimming, No Water Concealment, No Poison Immunity, No Posion Strike

-=Zephyr Bird (Air)=-
Pros: Flying, Vision I, +8 Mov
Cons: +20 Cost, No Range, No Water Concealment, No Poison Strike, No Poison Immunity, -2 Dmg, -1 Def, -1 Res, -5 HP (!!)

-=Black Spider (Death)=-
Pros: Web, Wall Climbing, Night Vision, Cave Crawling, +1 Def
Cons: No Poison Immunity, No Swimming, No Water Concealment, No Range, -1 Atk, -1 Dmg, -2 Res, -2 HP, -2 Mov

-=Purger (Life)=-
Pros: Floating, Holy Immunity, Better Range, +3 Def, +8 Res, No "Animal", Healing at medal
Cons: +10 Cost, No Melee Attack, -3 HP, No Marks. 1 at level.

As far as comparing the Lurker to the Purger, on paper it looks ok. You were talking about how the Lurker does about as much damage with its strike as it does with its range... compare it with the Purger who has no melee capability at all! Healing on level may be a bit much, though. It does cost 10 more, which is significant if you are spamming them.

As far as roles go, I see the Lurker as a balance of mobility with its Swimming, range with its spit +marks 1 on level, melee with its decent strike+poison strike and stats, and stealth with its water concealment. It's a pretty darn flexible unit. Yes, the Zephyr Bird is better at mobility, the Purger is better at range, and the boar is better at melee. However, none of those can reciprocate against the wide variety of enemies that the Lurker can fight against.

You do make a good case for the Purger being nerfed in some way, though. I feel that Healing and Path of Life should be removed, personally. Healing because I feel that it may be too useful to give to anyone who has any life sphere on a level 1 summon, and Path of Life because I feel that only really strong units should have path of ____ because it adds to their mojo.

Good points. I think the level one summons are pretty well balanced though, as you have shown, still quite distinct. As for the Purger, perhaps Path of Life could come at gold as a nice reward for getting a leve one so high...

i think 1-2 hellfire is fairly easy too...next to some phasing selfdestruction things.

some heavy cavalry should deal with them in the open field fairly easy too....especially lurkers have a great disadvantage here.

and i agree to remove path of life from the purgers, thats too much for lvl1. there are other summons that can give that too, like nature elemental that you get from nature "easy" quests.

i think we agree on incarnates to remove holy weakness last game, something TL had suggested to make it more a lvl3 unit.

blood mage needs buffing look at his stats and he costs 200 gold and is lvl3. i see no way why. i had fights with that unit and its durability is a joke dies to any melee unit with high damage or good ranged units too fast. i think blood mage should have resurgence, cause he cost so much and has no bolt attack(why even call him a mage, when he is just a priest unit with life steal...) just healing and life steal.

so, either cost is dramatically reduced or add resurgence.

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-26-2006 @ 09:59 AM).]

Gold medal fire breath which has its uses it makes it ok for defending towns too.

Its useful against frostlings but cold weakness means its vulnerable to them too.

Extra summoning cost.

Dire Boar (Earth)
Attack 7, but charge. Dam:6 Def 7 resis 5 HP:16 32mp
Stoneskin at gold:
combat rating: C+ , Higher at gold.
Explorer rating:C+
Animal & easily controlled from lower resist.

Zephyr Bird (air)
Combat rating F-
Explorer rating B+
Pros: Flying, Vision I, +8 Mov
20 extra casting cost

Black Spider (Death)
7att, 4, 4, 4, 11hp 26mp Can be useful for immobilizing, even units behind walls but its speed means haste or being underground helps allot with their effectiveness. Poison strike & immunity makes them useful on targets that can't retaliate.

Decent explorers for UG areas C+ Otherwise explorer rating D-

Lurker (water)
att:8 Dam:5 Def:3(Definitely a point to exclaim on)res:6 MP:28
Poison strike & immunity

Animal & easily controlled from lower resist.

Combat rating: D+
Has a range but so short being that close means its probably already been destroyed. Even behind walls its so short as to be hard to use.

It can explore waters and do so concealed well enough. But there isn't usually that much of interest in water. Putting them near bridge choke points as invisible early warning is one use.
Exploring:C or D+ Sorta depends on how much water too.

Lots of stuff has poison immunity (like majority of first level summons for starters,& undead) & only a few things have poison weakness.

If you were to nerf venom spit you'd need to boost lurkers & other units with venom spit. Its short range & one shot, it doesn't need to be nerfed!!

Purgers (life)
att:9 dam:4 in the form of range. Their lack of melee is a boon in many ways since it means they can attack again full power range if they have even a single hp left.
Def:6 Resist very high at: 14. Holy means lots of vertigod units. MP 28 w/ float

Heal & path of life at silver: Heal is pretty powerful & purger is one of only like two units in the entire game who's first level with heal that I can think of, Path of life can be a give away so its mixed bag. Only level 1 summon I can think of to get specials at silver instead of gold. (Well the birds can get vision two but you'll have to pay 50 gold for that because of it being nearly impossible to medal them by combat.)

Combat they can be used behind walls, behind other troops or offensively against fortification as they can pass wall. Only level 1 summon with shot that can be used enough.
(as ven spit is too short range and 1 shot, move into yellow zone & its gone & they don't have much mp so it doesn't take much)

One of two level of the sphere summons thats not a animal type, (not that it matters much for the birds)

Combat rating: B+ for being so damn versatile. (yes better then Salamander)

Explorer rating: D+ or C, they maybe slower then other units but float gives them all the access of a flier. They can also be used to spy or hunt spies who move on water/mountain as a way to avoid getting attacked.

But a big part of the upsetting balance of purger is its effectiveness against undead & deamons with cosmo picks of as little as 1 or 2 life. You could take holy weakness from a bunch of units or simply nerf its fighting a little bit. Taking pass wall will take its offensive against cities ability & help balance things for undead & deamons. Could give it death weakness(very few units with that anyways), could move its bonuses to gold. (not necessarily suggesting all of these changes at once, just throwing out suggestions, but taking pass wall is my strongest IMO)

If you want to compare purger its probably best to do it against magic servant. Which is slightly cheaper to cast (10mana less) but much weaker def/resis, no floating, strike which works against it because its not that of attack/damage no holy bolts, no healing or pass wall. Its level 2 so it costs 50% more every turn & takes twice as long to level. Perhaps should be level 1?

@Stranger
Why should hobbit sheriffs have poisoning skill but not hobbit rogues? It doesn't make sense.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 08-27-2006 @ 04:15 AM).]

I think I'll take path of life of Purger, maybe pass wall...not sure. I've seen it in action a lot today, and it didn't really dominate the game. I wonder also if spider should get 28 mp?

I understand thats part of the cost of these races, but it its so minimum to do so by just putting in just a point or two of life sphere selection.

By magic servant standards purger is amazing. Perhaps magic servant should be level 1 & be boosted slightly.

Venomous fumes? Sheriff smokes snake venom? Then those around him would be poisoned, like troops standing next to him. It doesn't make sense for him, and theres always reason to build sherriffs over pony rider besides leadership or poisoning.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 08-27-2006 @ 04:27 AM).]

Its not about life magic needing it but undead/deamon races needing it. On the other side of things, I still feel angels should be mightier creatures. I think stranger said he would.

Alternatively maybe death weakness or something.

So you feel that magic servant needs a little boosting with level 1 status then?

I agree on unicorns not being animals. They need to be able to phase behind enemy lines without worrying about being taken by control animal. They are magical animals/creatures, not "animals"

Speaking of, perhaps we could limit the number of uses of control animal? Unlimited seems too much to me.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 08-27-2006 @ 09:33 AM).]

plus, i do not think each unit in the game should be good in offensive AND defensive situations.

and while purgers are bad vs archons which meaning has lurker against goblins in combat?

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-27-2006 @ 01:27 PM).]

BTW, Magic Servant is not summonable in Dwiggs 1.4

No one answered about the spider....probably it's fine as it is.

We got about five games in this weekend, which was very good for testing. I'm pretty happy with where the mod is at and I want to finish (Lizard cities, Joep!) it. So, if you have any issues to screa...discuss rationally, please email them to me or post them.

Air, we've missed you lately

bj

If your opponent has not but holy immune units it won't matter if purgers can pass walls or not.

Path of life @ gold? Healing is the more powerful skill. Path of life is both good & bad since it gives you away. Even on grass since it alters the grass to more bland graphics.(which is pretty stupid if you ask me) Though it is more antiundead then healing.

Not taking pass walls? Do you have other ideas for dealing with the issues purger creates for undead/deamons?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 08-27-2006 @ 05:40 PM).]

Plus I can't think of any other holy ranged unit so mobile, with healing & relatively cheap with level 1 status to boot.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 08-27-2006 @ 07:50 PM).]