I'm not sure that a flyer can hit a wall, though. Have you tested it?

flier cant hit gates so cant hit wall too, as well as passwall units and so on.

Apparently they can't even target gates, not even if you give them walking & float as well.(walking isnt even listed on fliers when they go into battle)

Well we could give them hurl boulder, but then again I'm not too fond of fliers with unlimited shots. A bit more attack/damage? Strangler earlier? Grasp? Magic protection? Nothing?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-27-2006 @ 11:58 PM).]

I've run a small test now.. 50 attacks x4 Seems like Air is right. But my results indicate that defense doesn't matter, only attack. It could be so that attack check vs resistance and not defense.

Suffocate: 20 att 8 dam
1st unit: 1 def 20 res

53447467377433837464673343364738745344763557336763

x: y (x= dam, y= times)
-----
3: 15
4: 11
5: 4
6: 7
7: 11
8: 2
________________________________________

Suffocate: 20 att 8 dam
2nd unit: 20 def 20 res

53447467377433837464673343364738745344763557336763

3: 16
4: 11
5: 3
6: 7
7: 11
8: 2
________________________________________

Suffocate: 1 att 8 dam
1st unit: 1 def 20 res

83443444347453433444337334443333336444366345334433

3: 22
4: 20
5: 2
6: 3
7: 2
8: 1
________________________________________

Suffocate: 1 att 8 dam
2nd unit: 20 def 20 res

34334444444384444444433634344334444374464383444434

3: 14
4: 31
5: 0
6: 2
7: 1
8: 2

btw I tested raise terrain twice more. Sometimes parts of mountains disappear.

[This message has been edited by Tearion (edited 06-28-2006 @ 05:21 AM).]

So you think I might be right? (hey I said it first, and did the testing, why are you giving Air the credit?)

Impressive amount of tries. Surprising you didn't use some of those tries on low res units or geyser tests (just in case someone still questions that geyser is any different from suffocate other then the undead/machine immunity thing)

Your data could be simplified. Grouping 3&4 and 5-8 into two groups as save for "half damage" or hit. All testing thus far clearly justifies such grouping. Then expressing it as a percentage.

Suffocate: 20 att 8 dam unit: 1 def 20 res
Damage done : Time
3-4: 26
5-8: 24
52% a 3-4 save for half damage. 48% a hit for "full damage")
(unknown variable, can full damage be less then 5? Pattern indicates no)

Suffocate: 20 att 8 dam unit: 20 def 20 res
save: full
27 : 23
54% : 46%

Suffocate: 1 att 8 dam unit: 1 def 20 res 50 tries
save: full
88% : 12%

Suffocate: 1 att 8 dam unit: 20 def 20 res 50 tries
save: full
90% : 10%

Impressive data tearion.
Conclusion: Suffocate (and geyser too I'm positive)works against resist even though its a "physical type" attack.(when combined with the data I collected)

Conclusion: Most attacks aside from complete immunity have a minimal 10% chance of hitting. I've never seen less then 10% chance of flaming arrows hitting ent even when when shooting the ents at max distance with no enchantments. That suffocate as well is minimal 10% chance leads me to conclude its like that with all attack types.

Perhaps we should put such testing data in its own thread if this is to continue.

*points to his previous post about gargoyles two posts up so it doesn't get missed after having such long posts follow it*

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-28-2006 @ 06:56 AM).]

Quote:

raise terrain is bugged, but lower terrain is useful. you can lower whole mountainchains and build outposts everywhere, its a great spell to make some more room, especially good, if you start next to mountains on a rmg map. Crop fields will be unharmed by mountains on the surface, unlike those solid rocks in the ug.

Cool, so lvl terrain is permanent.

Hey, lets test every unit against every unit and every spell against every spell!!

yes its great idea muna! lets test 3 halberidiers vs 1 executioner and suggest rise cost of halberdier and lower cost of executioner, then test leprechaum vs 2 executioners and rise cost of executioners again, then test them vs archers behind wooden wall and rise cost of archers and wooden wall and lower cost of executioner again and continue doing such crap till end of the world or maybe Stranger will understand at last that not every silly suggestion written here requires changes in mod :P

Oh look, its the two headed egotistical hyperbole sarcasm monster, Air head Muna head.(though I think truly both are just air heads) They've come bearing worthless gifts of useless belittling (without a shred of their own case made to back up anything they say) of other peoples works and opinions.

Thank you air heads! What . . ever . . would . . we . . do . . . without . . . strangers hard and clever work making this mod possible in the first place. Thank you.

BTW guys in all seriousness, stranger will take in consideration what people say and put his own judgement in as well(like hes done many times before) He doesn't need you to tell him what is or is not required. If you wish to weigh in, do so. Make your own case. Don't waste everyones time with pointless belittling of others.

Noones so good at the game their beliefs are reproachable and need no case made for them.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-28-2006 @ 04:15 PM).]

Moderator notice:
Ok, enough bickering in this thread. Disagreeing is fine, but many of the posts seem more aimed at the person then the content.
I have to admit that some of it is probably meant in good humor so forgive me this push towards constructive criticism! (if Stranger sees it otherwise)

oh, come on Swolte, i think a catfight is rather fun as long as it stay civilized

rather fire them on

can really be anyone offended by all this?!

Not offended at all. But the verbal sparring clogs up the thread. It is becoming really difficult to follow.

Muna and Air have a good point. There's no use testing unit vs unit because there are so many factors you need to include other than the cost. Like upkeep, spells, enchants and how good they are against other units. There are lots of units and you can't predict what spells and enchants you will get.

I think situation that happening here isnt good :for example there were comments from ppl who didnt ever try to play online using leprechaums as main army, though that minor thing isnt disturbing in writing suggestions and opinions about it here and Stranger already making changes according to these proposals that came just from imagination, without any testing (testing one thing vs another thing not counting of course as this is pointless).

I agree with Air.
Without playing online extensively, testing unit-vs-unit is pretty pointless. More than upkeep, enchants, etc., what really counts is how soon can the unit be made, what are the racial bonuses and what advantages a sphere pick can bestow.

Such test results can be convincing when put across but they don't show the real picture, IMO, especially with the amount of unit complexity available in Dwiggs.
...and whatever ppl say, Air has more experience playing (and winning!) online in Dwiggs that I have seen. Granted, he has a not-too-subtle way to putting it across but any day, I would rather take his feedback rather than simulated tests between groups of same units.

With due credit to Stranger, he can hardly test everything thats posted here himself. So, when people speak from online experience rather than simula-tests, the online experience should be given more weight - especially since it is from a better player.

also need to mention that keeping this mod in forever unfinished form isnt best idea and better implement only wise and reliable changes in current patch instead of usual "lets do this and see if it will suddenly work"

I tested a number of units against a number of other unit types. Took in consideration of extenuating factors. Its just one piece of a whole picture, but it is a piece and is not completely worthless!

BTW I have played and won dwigg games. Granted I usually play dwarves (played other races in SP) but I often collect other types along the way. So I'm speaking from both. (test and game experience)

Airs advice? Considering it typically accompanies a arrogance and lack of reason behind it, not the most useful thing.

Dwiggs is finished! as far as I am concerned. I don't know what stranger would say, but I'm guessing he'd say dwiggs 1.4 is a complete and ready to play mod and NOT "in unfinished form" But there is always room for improvement. As long as changes are tested out, I see no reason it can't grow and the changes can't be significant.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-29-2006 @ 04:22 PM).]

Quoted from Air:

At least it wasn't me. Maybe you have noted that I report mistakes. If you read my post you will see that I asked if leprechaun is supposed to be a lvl 4 in a lvl 3 building. And when I wrote that leprechaun shouldn't have floating, I did so because they use their feets as you can see in the animation.

Quoted from Timelord:

Testing unit-vs-unit is pointless whether you play online extensive or not.

Quoted from Timelord:

How soon the unit can be made is very important. But you don't have to say that my examples are crap and repeat the same point I made about enchants and spells: "what advantages a sphere pick can bestow"

[This message has been edited by Tearion (edited 06-29-2006 @ 04:28 PM).]

just played 1vs1 game with knorrfaust me dwarves/water he undead/earth and he complained that runemasters are very very overpowered (my were with silver medal and liquid form) and all balance in dwiggs is crap. as i saw in test patch runemasters got leadership1 at silver so any comments about it? i can say that runemasters with medal, bless, liquid form and static shield can get 1/2 dam from all races except frostlings and archons with any magic combinations. that spell combo isnt hard to get with 4 water and 2 life (static can be missing though)

Are you asking anyone specific (like me?) or general request for feedback air?

I know runemasters provide the best stats for your gold of dwarves. But I generally use them as unit/door protectors. Putting them in front of dwarven cannons or catapults that can really do some damage/cause some problems.

With those enchantments I'm sure their pretty tough. Dwarves lack vision so I always go air with them. Granted call of the forest provides vision from life but I dont remember what level it is so am not sure if you would get it from 2 life. Anyways dwarves with their underground start make it hard to have domain with forest above ground for awhile.

Also don't forget they don't have death immunity so undead should be able to still bypass their physical protection. Do they get magic immunity at start in the patch?

I'm not sure any dwarven units need leadership based on 1.4. We could give it to dwarven veteran with their weak defense or move to gold. Not that a bit of leadership would cause any serious imbalance in my opinion. Not played the test patch yet though.

Dwarves grow slow and individual units move slow. Buffing and massing rune masters takes time, to research all said enchantments, cast em on them, mass runemasters etc, time dwarven players can't always afford to use. A runemaster will still take a bit to get to the enemy (disenchant, disenchant, still not here? disenchant and chew em up with archers too) But thanks to their transports they move fast on the overland map (when UG) and hit hard. I'd take air over 4 water 2 life on dwarves any day.

I also tend to favor massing boar riders earlier game over rune masters for taking towns. Those guys with haste and a few catapults behind em...

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-30-2006 @ 02:36 AM).]

I think this "best player" credibility stuff needs to stop. Best player can often mean most ruthless, tactless, or simply repeating the same effective and exploitive moves over and over. It behooves us all to listen to good ideas, wherever they come from. I think if people spent less time criticizing or mocking other people's ideas, and more time creatively and constructively thinking of solutions, this would be a much better thread. As Jomungur noted, it's getting difficult to follow. As the person who's trying to use all these ideas to make the funnest, most enjoyable mod, I don't have any use or interest in sifting through four or five consecutive posts that do nothing other than say "I'm smart and right and you're wrong and stupid" to another forumer. This is childish stuff, which I would expect from some of the 11 year olds I teach and not the people here. So, knock it off. This isn't intended as a challenge or insult to anyone, so let's not get defensive. Let's just be mature and post solutions, ideas, and constructive feedback. Otherwise, I might have to give up reading my own thread.

Regarding Rune Masters: I don't see them as being any more overpowered than a Knight. Leadership I was given at silver with the idea that as the most powerful Dwarven Infantry, their experience on the lines should benefit other units. Perhaps it's too much. But, put Static Shield, Liquid Form, and Bless on any level 3 unit, and it will probably seem overpowered. If you have time to mass Runemasters and persumably a transport for them, plus enchant them all heavily, I think Knorr should reconsider his play style rather than complain about balance. Maybe Magic Protection should come at gold, but I think you just used the unit really well, personally. Yetis with high attack and cold strike could have countered those units, but it takes some experience with the mod to know which units have what. And, this mod version is finished but, as we all see, there are issues to fix, which requires a "patch."

magic protection at silver or at gold is very important thing as now if i play dwarves i will do everything to get silver medal runemasters and liquid form as fast as possible (monastery->library->tower2 and expander as 1st researching thing) if no magic protection at silver i would use another magic and another units i think. though no res bonus from monastery and casting chamber would already slow this process

Its not end of game just cause you got a unit with fire immunity + poison, magic, and physical protection/lightning immunity from enchantment. they are still slow and without block, prone to being chewed up by range amd/or dispelled before they can reach the enemy. Still vulnerable to death, holy and cold. The sphere and temple choices for that block other great tactics with dwarves too.

Concerning dwarven veteran. I feel feel the name veteran berserker works better since it leaves room for a dwarven veteran thats a recolored axeman.

Also since its more advanced then a gold berserker it should have all of a gold berserkers abilities plus some. It should have poison immunity at start and fury.(which it never gets)

You took out wall crushing for regeneration (which isn't so useful when a units slow with such low defense that its hard for it to survive anyways) Gave it throw blade 3 & gave it 1 more attack but one less defense & damage. You took leadership from it.(more deserving of leadership then runemaster I think)

I recommend wall crushing @ gold instead of poison immunity which it would start out with.

Throw in 10 extra in initial cost and its hardly deserving of its new level 3 status downgrade. You might as well just build berserker's with half the upkeep cost less then half the build cost who can much easier get medals and can get fury. I mean dwarven veteran has only a little more in stats for alot more in cost over a berserker. Medal and fury differences subtract a bunch that small advantage away.(three times longer to reach any medals for a low defense slow unit) Or consider the effects of mighty meek, the patched version of dwarven veteran wouldn't stand a chance against a halfing slinger.

In short, I'm sorry to say but I hate dwarven veteran as it is now in patch. I'd maybe want to recruit them from structures in dwiggs 1.4 reg. But in dwiggs patch I'd not want to build them or recruit them from structure unless flush with gold and willing to take just anything I can. Now its just a inferior molerider.

Speaking of moleriders, perhaps you could give them block instead of 1 more defense? I know its not in the graphics.. You could say they use their claws to block. Would help with their tendency to be shot down quickly.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-30-2006 @ 03:17 AM).]

I'm glad you are enjoying the Dwarves, Air. I like 'em a lot. And, I like the Dwarven Veteran the best of all their units. Go figure

Ran a test to control if suffocates attack goes against resistance. 20 x2 tests. I set defense to 1 but defense doesn't matter as I showed in earlier post.

Suffocate: 1 att 8 dam

1st unit: 1 res
3: 1
4: 8
5: 2
6: 1
7: 4
8: 4

2nd unit: 20 res
3: 8
4: 8
5: 1
6: 1
7: 1
8: 1

My results show that suffocates attack goes against resistance. Other spells should be tested to see if it's the same for them.

[This message has been edited by Tearion (edited 06-30-2006 @ 08:06 AM).]

Cheers, Tearion

If all is as it seems, and it is attack that determines what the damage will be, then I don't think suffocate needs to be changed. Perhaps Geyser could use a very slight price increase or decrease in attack.

@Air, research bonuses have (as I posted earlier) been removed from the Monastary and Casting Chamber

Stranger i still play dwiggs 1.4 test patch u sent me already contains easy noticable mistakes like with death knight (:P) so its not need testing, i will test patch with wise changes and fixed fire pistol, fire cannon etc so now i still have these res bonuses everywhere and no dwarven veteran And i think the thing u wrote about winning need comment. here is situation :

Player B writing here that units X and Y are too weak, while unit Z is overpowerred, Player C disagreed and writing here units X and Y just need to be used in more creative way and unit Z dont have any special power. the problem that player C never show anything creative in mp games and usually dead after 1st attack, while player B can prove his point of view by beating everyone using unit Z and especially easy it happen with ppl who are trying to use units X and Y as main army. I think player C just dont understand game mechanics, always make wrong decisions and because of it everything that he write here about game balance have zero value. u disagree with it ?:P

I personally don't mind with as many people posting suggestions but what I do know is, Stranger, you don't have time to verify all they say.
...and it scares me to think changes might be inspired by a few scenarios experienced by the relatively inexperienced or unskilled player - especially when they are repeated over and over again with test results to back their case!

I remember when Dwiggs 4.5 and its predecessors were made, a lot of unit balance changes were inspired by Jom and they proved necessary - was it due to any reason but that he was easily the most skilled player with a thorough understanding of the game mechanics? Inspite of that, how long was the mod out before it was finally packaged and uploaded?

I don't want to continue this discussion but I just want to say you are wrong in thinking the skill of a player doesn't count when suggesting changes.

Now that that is out of the way, if you can send me this latest patch everyone has been talking about....

@Tearion,
My data not good enough for you? I already clearly established it goes against resistance. And you just had to post the (redundant) data the long way so it takes up maximum post space making it harder to read the thread. Such a waste of space & time.

@Stranger,
Would you please respond to even a few parts of my post concerning the "new" dwarven veteran? If you feel its so great and what I said hogwash, how so? Which parts? What am I not considering in that post? You don't feel I said anything valid at all?

@TL,
Skill definitely counts. But its not the one and only measure. Some people would decide whether someones feedback is good or not soley by perception of how much they win against people they perceive as good players. Whos good depends on who you ask. And theres allot of factors in winning a game beyond knowledge of which units to build and which enchantments to give them. Lets hear people out and not just be all elitist. And noones so good that their opinions are unreproachable. It just leads to alot of pointless words flung back and forth like they said.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-30-2006 @ 08:36 AM).]