True Purple,

A Sphinx is not only a "statue." It was made into statues because of its status as a mythological creature. You may be familiar with the myth of Oedipus, who solves the Sphinx's riddle. Cold weakness makes absolutely no sense on it, to be honest. It is a monster, not a piece of stone.

I've toned down it's defense and taken off fire strike.

Time, I can't remember what you're referring to on Incarnates....The Frost Giant has Cold Strike...and I agree with True Purple on True Seeing. Several Archons already have it.

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 06-02-2006 @ 06:03 PM).]

Concerning air elementals verses bone dragons,
Yes the air elemental is a little cheaper (like maybe 15%) and one more notch vision... But bone dragon with cause fear, death strike, and more then 50% more health is a much better bargain.

Might air elementals get a bit more defense to represent that they are made of air?(thus hard to to hit) Maybe magic strike? Bone dragon with no vision? Slightly slower? Something else? (ram for air E? I get why it had that now) Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-03-2006 @ 07:35 AM).]

Yea i think air is right bout gold dragons and black dragons, they should cost 400 mana, since it need at least average quest to get them. Bone dragons could have night vision and vision 1.

BD are already too good for their cost compared to air elementals (which I already got into in previous post), they don't need night sight too, well unless it cost them vision 1 or something else.

How can you complain about quest dragon costs one one hand Mun, yet blow off my clear example of inequity between bone dragons & air elementals on the other.

"Average quests" aren't necessarily that hard. I've seen "hard quest" that consisted of taking a town guarded by two level 1's.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-03-2006 @ 06:30 AM).]

bonedragons were without vision in dwiggs 4.5 and it worked very bad, especially if we remember that undead and dark elves have no vision units. air elementals always costed 130 and all was good with balance between them and everything else, though with whirlwind maybe they wont need to be cheap, but poison immunity and a couple of more hp will be good anyway. about gold and black dragons i remember they costed 400 in dwiggs 4.5 and there were no trouble with them, also in todays game was clear that getting early dark angel is nothing, u still need to reserch summoner, channeler and high spellcasting to get quantity that would affect anything.

btw TP if we compare bonedragon to purger or to angel what will be overpowered ? how can u compare only 1 unit to another get suggestions about whole balance?

[This message has been edited by Air_warlord (edited 06-03-2006 @ 02:30 PM).]

Quoted from airwarlord:

We can't remember that, because its not true. Dark elves have a very good vision unit. Eyes of dusk, its cheap & not too slow for a level 1 plus it makes a good attacker/defender against other scouts or even emergency city defender against small early armies. (maybe you meant to say had no vision...?) Got night vision and cave crawling too.

Undead don't have vision units, true. But they can choose air sphere just as well as death. The way you say it pure death sphere is obligatory for them. Though night vision would make sense for undead units. (fire creatures like fire sprites too since they bring their own light) Plus death angel has vision 2 and true sight.

Not sure about poison immunity for air elementals, or extra hp. I think higher defense & attack makes more sense and gives them a more unique feel. I think BD could lose vision and gain night vision and still be alright.

What do you think about invisibility for air elementals, maybe at medal? You normally can't see air. Even if they look like clouds (which is water vapor, not wind).. gonna be hard to distinguish from real clouds flying up in the sky.

Quoted from air:

Well bone dragon is holy weak, so thats not a reasonable comparison. But angel isn't (either one) If a level 1 purger is more powerful then a level 4 death angel, that speaks of some inequity.

Quoted from air:

They cost 500 now and theres no trouble with em. I was in the very situation stranger describes in several games as fire sphere, I had only level 1' salamanders (maybe I had fire sprites too) and got red dragon summon as a quest reward. I tell you I made red dragons. And it was worth it over a bunch of salamanders.(maybe a little close sometimes, but overall worth it) Red dragons cost 480 mana and aren't as good as gold/black dragons. (2 less defense, fire strike/breath not as good as death or holy)

Maybe some kind of middle ground as far as costs go? Would 450 for black & golden/425 for red make you guys happy?

On angels, I'd maybe like to see tougher more expensive angels. Angels as the weaker bargain level 4 summons doesn't strike me as right.

---------------

Speaking of level 1 summons.
I like that zephyr birds are slower (though 32 is pretty slow for a bird) and have less vision then their 1.3 counterparts. I'm ok with them being almost 50% more expensive then any other level 1 to cast as well. This means they can't so easily be used to rush around the world taking loose resources. (with higher indie settings that I like, you really end up paying losing such expensive summons to indie guards, oh well)

In a way units like dire boar are better scouts, since while they don't have the vision 1 or flying, they can be more easily replaced when indies get em. (zephyr birds are unlikely to survive battle to get a silver medal and vision 2) And a pack of boars might even survive many a indie encounter.

But for such a price and slower speed and only vision 1, zephyrs should be tougher. They are by far the weakest of the level 1's. Your lucky to be able to take out a fellow scout like a human surveyor which costs a quarter of the cost in gold. Zephyrs might easily be one of the weakest units in the game with 5 gold goblin stabbers being much tougher.

I feel for such a summoning price they should be able to fight toe to toe against almost any other level 1 summons that costs only 60 mana. We should give them more attack and especially more defense then 2 to reflect aerial prowess and dodging attacks and honing in their attacks from the sky with their sharp vision.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-03-2006 @ 05:25 PM).]

bone dragon to air elemental is killer unit like purger or angel for bone dragon, so there :P

That sentence was hard to understand, but if I understand you correctly your saying air elementals are only weak against bone dragons. But air elementals don't really do well against anything else either. I often lost them in many a FC against most anything.

Also, as I said, bone dragons are holy weak. Its not reasonable to make comparisons of units who have strike against a units weakness. Air elemental is not death weak. But even with EW fairs poorly against a unenchanted BD.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-03-2006 @ 05:38 PM).]

I think the undead really need bonedragons to give them some mobile kick.
To make them weaker would just make the undead weaker and I dont think they need that.

Unless you guys find the undead overpowered in pvp? I cant get enough of them up and running fast enough, nor can I get them aronud the map fast enough, so I dont find them very competitive against good players.

And by god, trying playing even an average archon player with undead! Its unholy how well the archons kick the ass out of the undead, and perhaps as they should

They have everything the undead don't, healing, mobility, great range, and well holystrike across the board and quite a bit of deathimmunity.

The only answer to the archons that the undead have is their DeathNight, unholychamp, holyimmunity, but no resurgence.
What do u think about giving the knight resurgence?
As overpowering as that probably is! but considered in the overall scheme of the undeads it may just balance things out?

Cheers
SB

P.S An undead transport would also greatly help the undead, but again perhaps that over compensates, there is something to be said for a shambling horde of the undead

[This message has been edited by Stillborn (edited 06-04-2006 @ 04:08 PM).]

At silver BD have resurgance if I remember correctly. At gold they have drain life and one other thing I think.

with fireimmunity death knights became much better, i could kill with them+karaghs player who had archons+dwarves combo at the end and death knights were fighting much better than karags because i had damnation and no dark gift even with all researched spells so i think death knights are ok now. about air elementals and bonedragons i can say that almost every mass using of air elementals is successful, they help in battle a lot while i cant remember single time death magic player got victory with bonedragons mainly, so just because of it any duscussions about how good they are nothing more than total crap :P seems the main reason that there is always some players with full life or some life picks + order shrine is very popular and it can give turn undead and sacred wrath so at the end creature with low res and holy weakness isnt that useful that can be in theory.

Btw stranger i just remembered earth lev4 has only 6 res and it will result that banish summon will work on it very often, which is absolutely wrong for so expensive creature, I think res of any lev4 summon shouldnt be less than 10-12 at least

Simple, don't mass bone dragons against a player with life sphere/order shrines. There are players who don't use those. BD are not total crap just because they are holy weak. But we could give summons more resist. Especially level 4's but level 3s and others too.

That would require banish getting more attack since right now its a measily 3. Banish could stand to be a bit more expensive then 15 too.(maybe 20?) Bind summon could stand to be more expensive then 40, and its attack is very high too for summons having such weak resist. Bind summons attack is 18, a level 4 summons like Basilisk resis is 8. That means it just about can't miss. For 40mana you are almost guaranteed to steal something that costs 320 mana to cast. Which is absurd in my book.

I like variation in units, but considering spells like bind and banish I think summons should have more uniformity when it comes to resistance.

With odds of success factored in, bind summon should cost at least a quarter of the cost of the average level 4. (which means if it were to cost an 8th of the cost of the average level 4, it should have about half chance to miss with no summoner aura) Being able to steal a level 4 is very powerful.

My personal experience with air elements is they don't do all that well for their cost. I feel they could get a little extra. Do you feel invisability at start or medal too much? You don't think they deserve a little extra defense due to their low hp?

Quoted from air:

Actually it sounds like death knights are too powerful now from what you said.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-04-2006 @ 06:20 PM).]

I think deathknights have too unrealistic immunites like fire and lightning. They are best unit in value&quality of undead tho. Just adding some defence or dmg and removing those immunites since that make no sense.

I bet u have some description, what makes all logical?

Well the holy immunity is the most illogical immunity for death knights of them all. I understand its for undead to fight races like archons. Holy protection would have sufficed. (I'm not speaking on strictly balance terms, that can be dealt with seperately)

Stranger speaks of uniformity among races, like "tigrians" don't have cold weakness so spynx "shouldn't" have cold weakness even though they aren't strictly tigrian. Fine I'll stipulate to that arguement for the moment.

Then why should death knights (who are no less undead then other undead units) have holy immunity when their compatriates of the same race have weakness? Because their eyes burn for hatred of holy things? I imagine most undead hate holy things.

I had suggested before an etheral unit, "the lost". Pass wall, physical protection, holy protection, float, undead. Only evil instead of pure evil. They would have holy protection because the lost use to be good, but were converted to the side of darkness by magic, corruption and what not. Most of the lost just wish release from the life of undead thus are eager for battle.

Whats the point of it though if death knights beyond reason have holy immunity?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-06-2006 @ 01:24 AM).]

balance reasons tp, but with proposing invisibility to air elementals seems u just dont know what is it :P

Not if invisibility was received at gold medal instead of lightning strike. Use your imagination air.

I just got further proof of how truly pathetic zephyr birds are in combat. 2 of them got defeated by a surveyor. Granted some of thats luck. But if they were anywhere near to the level of other level 1 summons that could never have happened. For their cost they should be at the level of other level 1 summons in combat.(please see post on the page preceding this one)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-05-2006 @ 03:16 AM).]

Hi guys,

I'm working toward a patch that I think will dramatically improve the gameplay, though to be honest, I'm finding this mod to be really fun as it is

A few notes: Still, my concern with giving the Death Knight any more abilities is that it will be the only unit that people want to build for the Undead. I'd rather make the other units more viable and useful. In fact, I'm inclined to agree with Munataros and take lightning immunity off the Death Knight as it is...so, maybe we can think of some ways to improve the other Undead Units.

On the Bone Dragon, I've given it Night Vision but I think it's ok as it is. It can do the Undead Scouting for them and handle most other flyers in combat.

On Zephyr Birds: I wouldn't mind reducing the cost to 80 but as they are the fastest level one summons, the only level one unit that can fly, and since they have vision I, I think they need to be more expensive or they will swarm the map, annoying people and giving a big big scouting advantage. And, of course, Surveyors should be able to kill a silly bird with their stick

I'll have to think about banish summoned....

cheers

Air elementals in numbers are probably one of the best summons around...no need to boost them at all!

As for zephyr, it is not meant to go toe to toe with other lvl1s, so why do it? It is a scout with vis 1 and flying - far more useful than other lvl1s in its scouting capability. Trying to take on other lvl1 summons was not prescribed for it, just as flying and vis1 were not prescribed for the boar.

When I was still playing online a couple of weeks back, Air appeared to be the most popular sphere...

Balance is an odd thing, hard to achieve but can be easily corrupted due to skewed experiences which do not represent the truth. For example, performance of a particular unit (or a group of them) in battle can be attributed to unit abilities, roll of the dice, player strategy or TC skills (and a combination, in most cases).
Is a single player experience enough to decide which one it is? I see most such mishaps attributed to unit defects but the good performance attributed to spells/strategy/etc....but I tend to think that many of those mishaps are also due to a combination of the other 3 points - ill-luck, bad strategy or bad TC skills.

Air, it will be sometime before I can play online again.

no comments then :P

I wouldn't mind seeing banish summoned for 11 or even 10 cp, I believe it's 10 at the moment? Maybe high research cost, though it's high at the moment as far as I know.

Air elementals are strong enough in my opinion. They are quite the nemesis of archers, they have physical protection and can blow them away. This forces them to either walk close to them and lose move points, or attack them from a distance with low chance to hit. Furthermore an almost pure flying stack is very strong for obvious reasons.

I agree with air that a lot of times the holy sphere is picked. It seems a little unfair that the undead are mostly getting harrased by the good guys, while they pretty much got nothing to do back. Sounds like good is more evil than pure evil...

The stats of the bird show enough proof of the weakness already. But that doesn't mean it's wrong or anything.

Bone dragons are quite strong, but not against the wrong units alas I think the anti-paladin should be a specialized horseman, needed if there's no other option. Not the common footmen of the undead. Furthermore I think the undead are very hard to play with, and I tried them tons of times. Though they got excellent units, human opponents often easily can counter them with extremely cheap (holy) bolt throwers.

To stranger: Sent you some new sounds

Concerning the birds, just thought their extra expensiveness (almost 50% more [85 mana] then most level 1 summons) could buy them some minimal amount of combat prowess. Where at least twice their numbers might stand a chance against any other level 1 that costs 60. This aspect would not change anything a great deal, since they would still be mostly only used for scouting and still pretty easily killed come indie encounter. But it provides interesting potential variation in tactics. But clearly many don't see it that way. Fine, we can drop that topic.

Interesting perspective ElJeopo concerning air elementals, thanks. Though air elementals don't blow units that far away its mostly true, but best aspect of that is it potentially blowing archers off of walls.

Quoted from ElJeopo:

Well "no other option" might be a bit extreme. But specialist, sure.

Maybe summons could have 4 resist for every level, with slight variation according to individual summons? Specialty summons like gold/black/red dragons & angels a bit higher. That would give BD about 12 resist, which would mean it would be a bit less devastated by holy range and spells.

Purger could be slightly more expensive? As well making sure other holy bolt units aren't too easy to get?

Banish could have an attack of 18, and cost 25mp (instead of 3 and cost 15) That would give it a 60% chance of destroying the average level 4 summons, and a much better odds of destroying anything lower level.

Bind could have an attack of 14 and cost 40. Which would give it a 40% chance of stealing a level 4.

With summoners aura, banish would have 40% and bind only 20% on many a level 4.

Alternatively banish as more of a low level summon damager
could have only say 9 attack 8 damage with a casting cost of 15. It would have a 15% chance of banishing level 4's. Minimum chance with summoner aura.

We could decrease resist on level 4's by 1 and of the attack values of banish and bind so as to decrease the discrepancy between low and high level units. Or use 3 times level summoner for resist (with appropriate attack reduction of minus 3)

If its a high level summon, especially with medals and enchantments, banish and bind can make a real difference. Thoughts stranger?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-06-2006 @ 00:53 AM).]

For some perspective on Bind Summon:

You could cast Hellfire or Sacred Wrath or steal a level four. If you are in a battle with 16-32 units on the enemy side, then I would take the Hellfire. I wouldn't always use Bind Summon, even if I had it and my opponent had a level four summoned unit.

On Banish Summoned, let's think: for 15 mana, you will probably be successful 1/3 times on a unit with 6 resist or maybe 2/3 if you are lucky; of course, you could get unlucky and miss all three times. For the cost of 3 Banish Summons, you could cast four stonings, four deep fissures, or three Blazing Comets. All of those spells will probably kill at least one level 1-3 summons. In many cases, two will be killed. As some of you witnessed, I lost two Dark Angels to five Stonings in a game several days ago. I bet if the player had cast five banish summons, I wouldn't have lost an Angel. I don't think bind and banish summoned are the issue as much as whether summons are too weak.

Also on summons, consider cost: Air, you want 10-12 res on units that cost 120 mana? Let's look at the Earth Elemental. If you were paying gold for a similar unit, the Dwarvish Stone Golem, for example, you'd pay 170. I think that Summons are cheaper or equal in value already for their abilities than gold costing units. Also, summons can be added to armies wherever you don't have domain. They don't have to be produced in cities and transported out to the battle sight. In a way, they are almost like free units, since they don't tie up your cities and they use only the magic that you don't use. In the end, if res is low for most summons, then it has the same effect as if it were high: all players can target a unit's low res just like they could use the high res to protect that unit. Bbecause many summons have physical protection, lower res is a means of making them vulnerable to a specific type of unit: the unit with some bolt based attack. Also, as some have thought that Enchantments already are too weak/expensive or not worth using, then they would probably be used less if summoned units were made even stronger. For me, if an opponent wants to spend 30 or 40 mana in a battle trying to banish my elemental, that's fine. I wouldn't mind if he got one, since three stonings would have achieved the same result.

I'm not saying that the res of summons shouldn't be raised but it would mean revamping the whole summons system and rethinking how magic functions in the game, not simply tacking 4-5 res on every summoned unit that costs over 100 mana.

Maybe we can think of some ways to help some of the summons. What about seduce instead of animate corpse on the Dark Angel for starters?

Edit: I've powered up the Dragons just a bit (2 more damage, 1 more resist, 1 more attack). I want them to be scary and powerful not massed and relatively common.

BJ

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 06-06-2006 @ 04:57 AM).]

In addition, I've been thinking about spell books and a long discussion we had before the mod came out about Mastery Spells. Personally, I don't like them, don't find them intersting and would remove them. But, I know that other players feel differently. Yet, taking them out would ensure that players got all the spells for their chosen sphere. So, I'd like to take a poll:

Do you want Mastery Spells or not?

I will record the results in the main part of this thread.

Thanks,

bj

stranger i was talking about big beetle if u still care, u set 6 res to 320 cost creature

Dump mastery!

great idea.

About the undead, I agree with you entirely, really the undead knight is already too good, any better and it will soley define the entire undead strat, so I'm glad we are moving away from that.

But to improve the entire undead race is harder, I've been an advocate of a racial transport for the undead for a while, is this enough? is it too much?

I would also like to see greater functionality on some of the tier2-3s, perhaps a drainwill to accompany the vampire?

You would think physical protection on their warriors and archers would be enough, I really wouldn't add anything there.

What I think hurts the undead is really what makes them so unique;
their slow to get started, (low prod, low money, and expensive units) and slow to get moving (low movement, no transports), but they almost all have resurgence, (If you can get them rolling it should be devastating!).

Do you think making their units a little cheaper and adding a transport early in the build tree would fix things? Or is this again too much?
I mean they do have the option of making zombies cheaply, and their an easily overlooked unit that I think is really good.

Well let me know what you've been thinking of doing.
BTW who do you know who plays the undead competitively in online play, perhaps thats who we should be talking to.

Cheers
SB

Stranger, why do you ignore my post and only respond to air? I put a bit of work into it you know.

BTW, I absolutely hate the idea of seduce instead of animate dead for death angel. I also feel angels should be tougher then they are, they should be tough with higher cost. They are apocalyptic characters and should not be weak/common place in my opinion.

I am writing up a reply getting into more details, comparison percentage "graphs" and what not, but since I'm busy at the moment and don't have time to check everything needed to complete it, it will have to wait till latter. (saves post in a word pad)

Assuming an average of 4 resist per summon level. -1 for fourth level (with gold red, black dragons and angels having 2 more) banish summon having an attack of 9 8 damage. (remember you said the damage always hits even when the banish doesn't)
Level of summon . . :L1. . L2 . . L3. . L4 . .Special level 4's
Chance of banishing:75% 55% 35% 20% 10%

And of course when it misses it does an average of 4 damage as max damage is 8. Blazing comet on the other hand would do an average of 6 damage as max damage is 12, but blazing comet can miss. Banish always does damage if it misses total distruction.

Summoners aura would simply bring up a summons resist to the next levels equivalence.

Bind with an attack of 15:
Level of summon. . . :L1.. L2 . . L3. . L4 . .Special level 4's
Chance of controlling:Max 85% 65% 50% 40%
Bind could also have damage 8 or higher, which means it would do up to that much damage each time it misses.

Mass spells might be more important in particularly large battles, especially with alot of low resist weenies, but in 8 verses 8 battles (many battles are of those sizes because thats the easiest to move with) Bind can make a big difference. Bind can also be used in more devious ways where low level units inside domain can rush up to summons and steal them before they can be destroyed.

Speaking of blazing comet, I really liked it as one of the rare spells that could actually be used against walls. While not how it was usually used, it was a nice option. Due to the chaotic nature of calling down comets on a target, it would be nice if the spell had less attack (perhaps being a bit cheaper) more damage? I also liked the physical aspect of it, though I understand how that undercuts fire protection and how its good that only earth spells have such physical component. So I don't know..

Though outside of all that, it does make sense for fire to have a especially powerful pure fire single target spell. Its just a shame that spell is blazing comet.

Concerning undead, I like undead as a infestation. Of the image of raising a immense undead army, to that end I'd like to see undead units being a bit cheaper. Maybe slightly weaker?

I gave some more thought to "The lost", it could just be evil (instead of pure evil) or neutral if not buildable by undead. And perhaps have cold strike instead of death strike. Not sure about immunities, would be nice for it to have unique immunities other then just holy too.(lightning immunity instead of cold?)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-07-2006 @ 04:41 AM).]

my bad, Air, I misread your post

TP, I don't think the idea of increasing resistance by level is a bad one, as it would mean that banish would have a fairly equal and predictable efffect against the various levels of summons. But part of me just doesn't want to standardize and make everything roughly the same. I know, I know, the units could still be quite different in other ways, but one of the things about Dwiggs that has always charmed me is the variation among races and among units. 1.4 rules swordsmen and pole arm level one units are pretty much all vanilla units with different graphics. I don't want to have the same effect with summons.

On increasing attack and cost of Banish Summons: I like the way it is set up now. The one thing I could do would be reduce the attack even more and increase the damage, so that the spell is more of a summons based attacker rather than a banishing spell. I'm not sure if you know, but the current attack on Banish is three, TP, and the casting cost is 15.

On Bind Summon: this one is trickier to me, because even if I lowered its attack, it would still work extremely well against earth units and badly against life ones. Maybe increasing the cost to 50 so that it can't be cast twice without a catalyst in one battle is the way to go.

On the Purger: 70 mana gets you a unit with Holy Bolts, low defense and not many hit points. I don't see it as being overpriced, though I'm curious what others think.

On Blazing Comet: because Deep Fissure already destroys walls for 10 mana cost, I'm not sure anyone would want to use a Blazing Comet to do so for 15.

On the Undead: I've upped the movement of the Vampire, Bone Horror, and now for the patch, the Spectre. My problem with balancing this race is that it has never had any appeal for me to play...It's not that I don't like their units, it's just that I don't want to play as a leader of the Undead. I think I will try testing them a bit more myself online but if, as Still notes, anyone plays them a lot, I would value your ideas.

Cheers,

BJ

[This message has been edited by The_Stranger (edited 06-07-2006 @ 01:21 AM).]

Once per battle, as long as its not precasted.

Can you change how mastery works in any way? Can you make it only change the nodes for example? Node master comes up so very little, since trying to get to it can kill you. If it means a good chance of victory when you do, seems like you deserve it, as long as it actually took enough resources to research, cast, & upkeep. Plus the only spell Ive seen less in spell to research turn up then say spells like banish, is the mastery spells.

Now if the mastery slots could be used for another spell, then maybe... Could it be used for another spell?

Deep fissure will always destroy a wall, even say a full health stone wall in one shot?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-07-2006 @ 04:35 AM).]

An idea for a item,
Lighting rod: (exists already but this is a little different)
Hurl lighting
Lighting strike
+2 damage
+1 attack
Lightning weakness.
Rare? attack item

What do you think?
Current lightning rod is only hurl lighting and marksmanship 1

BTW did you guys know "Ring of Salvation" Which gives resurrect and resurgence is only "rare"?(and a order quest item) Please keep in mind, resurgence on a item is UNLIMITED and resurrect can be used to gain control of or recover some pretty cool units.

Did you guys know that both fire shell and frost shell armor items give weakness, but lighting shell which has the same stats and same "rare" status does not?

Item idea, Earth shell, Physical protection, magic weakness
+3 def. +1 resis

Did you know that of all the items, there are about only 3 of them that are "frequent"?(I looked at just about all of them) I also bet there are considerably less common items then there are "rare" or "exceptional" ones.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 06-07-2006 @ 05:59 AM).]