vulnerability to magic its when u have 24 infantries, opponent casting sacred wrath and all your troops lose 50% of hp and ppl who talking in gs that in this mod lev3 and lev4 units are too weak just didnt try this mod. other day they are speaking that in normal aow (but what can be considered as normal aow now is a question too )low lev units too weak, here this problem solved so they just dont know what they want

If your going to point to spells like sacred wraith, Its easy for me to point to spells like weaken or oil skin which isn't nearly as effective on lots of lower level units as it is on one high level unit.

In regular AoW low levels are too weak, but dwiggs takes this too far too the other extreme. *sighs in frustration in having to repeat that, yet again* Please pay attention to what your replying to. BTW, I have talked to any of number of players who have talent with AoW who don't like dwiggs and have played it.

I get the feeling you've turned on me because I've disagreed with you on death knights So what is your anecdotal evidence or any other kind of evidence or line of reasoning that shows them to be weak/not worth building that they need fire immunity too?

If we want to settle this issue of whether level 4's are too weak or not, lets play some test games. I don't mean normal games where you play how you want. But players of equal skill, one chooses to only build level 1's & 2's , the other beelines to level 4's and builds nothing but that.(with maybe the exception of scouts) Both of the same race. Maybe a third player just building level 3's.

Stranger, you wanna participate in this discussion?

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 03-31-2006 @ 11:34 PM).]

no comments :P

Firstly, I'll be playing tommorrow (hurt my leg, so I've got plenty of time ) from around 8gmt onward.

I hadn't forgotten about anyone, but I've been very busy lately and, frankly a bit lazy Anyhow, a few replies:

I'm not a fan of giving units huge medal upgrades. It's nice if they get an upgrade that suits the unit, but giving them two or three abilities per medal is too much, I think. The reason for this is that the more abilities each unit gets, the less unique all units become (ability overlap). Using the Avenger example, the them of the unit is a specialist fighter against evil. If it loses death immunity and fire strike until silver, why build them? I would rather build a crusader in that case. I suppose some units are strictly situational ones, and they need to retain certain abilites to be useful. Giving them essential abilities at silver or gold seems to much like forcing a player to build a war shrine is he wants a useful unit. I think a good example of a medal upgrade I like is on most human units: i.e. they get extra strike at silver. That's it, but it sets their units apart and it's a darned useful ability. BUT, I think you may have a good point on the fire immunity, TP. It does render them immune to a lot of ranged attacks. I'll think about this one.

Continuing on with the Archons: Titans are already very strong. Putting lightning strike on them would be excessive, I think, although it would perhaps fit them as a unit--i.e. a sort of demigod of the heavens. In addition, I would like to limit lightning abilities to the Dark Elves, though this might mean taking the ability of the Valykrie at gold...for consistency's sake

Treemen isn't much of name, but a tree is not a unit...it suggests too much immobility. In Tolkien, for example, I believe trees that occasionally move are called "Hurons..." or something similar. If anyone thinks up a more appealing name, I'm happy to use it

On Dwarves: the Steam Tank already has transport VII . Do people not like the Gargoyle as a level 4? It's one of my favourite units to build if I manage to make groups of level fours. But, I don't really have a strong motive for making the tank a level three...I suppose it makes Humans more unique in having the only level four machine/transport...but there's not much need for that. A few more votes might sway me

I'll fix the ranger animation. Thank you

Your face will be very blue if you keep underestimating physical protection. Enchanted weapon is not extraordinarily common in Dwiggs. And in complex battles involving units of all level, physical protection can be huge. Against Dwarves, for example, or Orcs, the Ents physical protection and poison immunity makes it extremely formidable. To counter it, a player must spend a lot of mana on researching and casting and maintaining enchantments, which reduces his ability to summon. Having played a few Dwiggs online games, I can safely say that physical protection is one of the most desireable hero upgrades and is a big reason for going for the water sphere (that little static shield helps too )

I think many people are put off initially by the mod because of how different it is. However, those that continue to try it generally come to like it quite well or even prefer it to normal rules. Five or six months ago it was indeed quite popular online....I suppose what this means is that I'm not interesting in competing with version 1.4 I want this mod to be something that plays quite differently, offers more depth, and appeals to players bored by or frustrated with the more one dimensional gameplay of 1.4.

What some of us may be forgetting when we talk about unit strength and cost, is that while 8 goblin swordsmen take half the gold of a Karagh and may beat it, they take 8 turns to make. They CANNOT be made faster. A Karagh can be made in 4-5 turns, perhaps 3 if hurried with a decent city growth and gold supply. So, in the time it takes to make those 8 swordsman, I might have 2, perhaps 3 Karaghs, which easily win that fight. If a player has no gold, then they won't be hurrying Karaghs, obviously, but that's based more on map type that relative unit strength. If a person can afford to hurry them a bit, then level fours are worth it in some cases. However, I think level threes are the best option for most scenarios. But, to be honest, level fours have been a dilemma ever since I tried modding the original Dwigg mod. For example, the old Dwigg Titan had something like 8 defense. It's tricky to make a unit useful enough to warrant building but not so strong and or cheap that it renders others obselete. I'll be taking a look at level fours prior to the final release, but I can't say that any drastic changes seem warranted at this point.

Gluttons don't need swimming because they have liquid form I did increase their movepoints to 28, though.

Air, your Bone Horrors couldn't hit his Runemasters, but Death Knights would have. However, your Bone Horrors did quite nicely against my swordsmen and Air Elementals. And yet, you may just be right On the Death Knight, perhaps he should have Fire Immunity instead of Cold Immunity?

Good point too on the happiness, TP. I'll review the structures this weekend.

death knights with 18 hp didnt have a chance to survive your attack while bonehorrors still can get some power to hit high def units sometimes, they are one of the most expensive lev3 units at least about cold or fire immunity i can say that fire immunity will be better than cold immunity because undead have other cold immune units, but better if they will have both as it special antimagic unit

Quote:

Eh? Your the one who gave these level 2's with nice stats this huge list of abilities. My suggestion was just a bit of reassignment of some of those abilities to medals, loss of others. (the two immunities)For the reasons you just mentioned among others.

Quote:

*sighs* I never suggested that. I suggested...

Avenger:

Holy strike, fire strike, Holy immunity, death immunity, fire immunity Holy champion, Round attack, Turn undead.

Silver:
Fire strike, Fire bolt. (possibly keeping the fire strike at plain)

Gold:
Holy bolts, turn undead 2

Possibly 12 attack and 8 damage, but even if not with their stats and without any medals they are still vastly Superior in most every way to say a human pikeman except for polearm. Or a crusader for that matter, maybe less so.

So even without medal they have things like holy strike, turn undead and holy champion to help them with undead. As well as round attack, which isn't specific to undead, just generally useful.

Titans:
fire immunity

Silver:
Fire immunity, fire strike

gold:
Lightning strike due to their stunning blows. Too powerful? Its at gold, plus your going to increase their price you said, I feel thats a bad idea.

I figure with this configuration avengers will be good for offensive and killing undead but weaker with defense, paladins defenders of the faithful against undead and titans adept with some experience at taking on fiery creatures.

Trees sound immobile? While shrubs sound like they run around then? What kind of vegetation do you have growing nearby?

Before I speak on anything else, it seems like you didn't read me the first time. (like you thought I was suggesting death immunity to be assigned to silver on avengers, and you thought I was suggesting we "add" 2 or "3" abilities at medals for avengers) So I'll stop now in hopes you really hear me right so I don't have to repeat myself in the future.

Would you ever do those tests I suggested? You might feel that I and others are wrong about dwiggs level 4's, if so, I bet you would feel better if your tested vindicated you in this, or for you to find out you were wrong in some way possibly. Knowledge is power, and regular games aren't nearly as good at weighing these issues, too many variables.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-01-2006 @ 06:19 AM).]

I find level 4s to be rare, powerful, unique units that are used from time to time with good effect and other times not. This is how I feel they should be. They aren't the rank and file troops, many armies will not contain them.

True Purple,

I did read your posts and responded to each specific idea you mentioned. I was on some pain killers at the time, so perhaps I got a bit confused. Some I agreed with, some not. I think you need to perhaps reread my post as well Also, not to be contentious, but I suggest playing the mod a bit more before commenting extensively on what needs to be changed. Some of your ideas are spot on, but others, to me, reflect a lack of experience playing with the mod. Please keep your thoughts coming, of course, but maybe in a less depecrating manner?

Shrub is not the name of any Dwiggs unit. It's "Shrubling."

I never said you were wrong about level four units. Nor did I dispute the results of your tests. My point is that if level fours become stronger, then we might as well play regular rules. Mitch has stated my view on this subject pretty accurately. It's a tough balance, and I will probably strengthen a few of them selectively, but I would rather have them too expensive than too cheap and strong.

regards,

Brad

lower level units tend to be more specialist in dwiggs, while higher level units tend to just replicate the tasks of lower level units, slightly better with allot more gold and build time. (with exceptions)

Stranger, perhaps what got under my skin was the irony of you lecturing me about the problems of units getting too many abilities, as though I was suggesting avengers get even more abilities, not less like I was actually suggesting. Your concerns of units with too many abilities is the very source of my suggestions.

Quoted from stranger:

Thats pretty close, ok then, call them treelings.

Quoted from stranger:

Having the happiness to (and this should be harder then it currently is) rarely get a free unit rush is a reward for what should be a difficult task for anything other then your cap without extra opposing towns.

Rushing is of course expensive and uses population. You can rush level 3's as well. If they aren't worth the cost without rush, what makes you think they will be worth the cost with rush? Unless you truely are flush with money. Which does tend to happen more with dwiggs slow build and money structures, but it also means rushing a unit costs so much more too.(more production to rush)

And getting level 4's is more of a challenge in dwiggs too, which means it should be a little better then your average troops.

Quoted from stranger:

What are "regular rules"? If level 4's were stronger in dwiggs, they still probably wouldn't be as effective as the lower level units.

I just want a mod that balances the levels of units, that lower level units in other versions of AoW are usually not worth it with exceptions has frusterated me for a long long time.(I remember talking about just that over a year ago[not sure of exact time]) But its nearly equally frusterating that with dwiggs to go so far to the other extreme. Your margin for "erroring on the side of expensive level 4's" seems to be very large in many a case.

I think one valid way of increasing the value of higher level units is trimming the ability list of some lower level units. Some of those units have ALLOT of stuff.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-01-2006 @ 05:21 PM).]

Some of my views....

The Death Knight should have both Cold Immunity and Fire Immunity. He is the kind of same specialist fighter as the Avenger...give him his due and make him more formidable!

Pushing a lot of abilities to medals forces the player to build the war shrine or the unit never gets built (which was Stranger's concern, btw, if I read his post correctly). For example, why would I build TP's Avenger when I get a similar unit for far less investment (Crusader)?.
The Titan definitely had to be made more expensive as he has the toughest stats of any unit and cost a little more than the other average lvl4s. On the same lines, I feel the karagh should also be made a little more expensive.

Stranger, about the shadow - can you remove Trail of Darkness from it? Really negates the surprise factor of invisibility!

...as for players playing and then not accepting Dwiggs, there can be many reasons. I believe one of the main reasons is adaptability. If a player cannot adapt to the changed strategy in a mod, he doesn't like it. Most regular games are lvl4 bloodbaths...if you can't have that, many don't play it. Yes, lower level units are stronger in Dwiggs...and stronger for each race. You can still mass-build lvl4s...even in Dwiggs games nowadays, its not uncommon to see an entire stack of lvl4s. Adaptability is the key.

appeared that karagh constanly die after 2 warmage stonings so timelord u think 1 stoning worth 160 gold is not enough ?

Constantly?

Two warmage stonings will not even kill an Ivory Siren consistently! The karagh for its cost and with the goblins' expansion bonus can be massed at a rate no other lvl4 can...and you know this Air!
Can you think of any such strategy for any other race? With their high att/dam/res, they are formidable indeed. So, warmage stonings killed them...big deal! Three or four Sacred Wraths can probably kill a whole stack of reapers...is that ok then?

Compared to the time taken to get to lvl4s, the cost and the unit itself, the karagh is far superior to any other lvl4. Comparing a Titan or a Sphinx to a Karagh is a no-brainer because by the time a player has 3 or 4 Titans/Sphinxes/Reapers on the field, the goblin will have a stack of karaghs poking around...and they aren't weak fighters either!

I m not sure how constantly it was because its happening after 6 am, but evil stranger used some low lev units and this stoning to kill my karags so i couldnt use advantage u are talking about like 1.5 hours of gaming or something and its with 80 cp and all offensive fire spells at the end i was thinking how many trolls i could make instead and so on.

btw timelord did u get connection?

Many of your premises are wrong TL.

Quoted from TL:

Avengers aren't specialists. With their long list of abilities they are jack of all trade generalists. Round attack, range of two types,3 types of immunities for defense, strong attack of two types, first strike, turn undead.

I want both death knights and avengers to be specialists not generalists. Which is why I suggest these changes and oppose death knights getting yet another immunity.

Quoted from TL:

You need to establish that death knights aren't already very formidable and useful for its cost. A difficult task indeed.

Quoted from TL:

*blinks* Not at all true, they have very different abilities and avenger has better stats.

Quoted from TL:

Well you wouldn't expect to have it have lower stats then say a level 3 or 2 unit would you? And for it to have more stats then a level 4 isn't that hard in dwiggs, due to level 4's generally being underpowered. Its one of the few level 4's as strong as it should be.

Quoted from TL:

Maybe, if the enemy has already explored the area by the time the shadow arrives. If it had arrived before then and the shadow doesn't move the trail doesn't negate the invisibility.(trail only appears when a unit moves) Or if it were to sneak in behind anothers trail of darkness. Or if its within ones darkness domain spell. Invisibility without a catch is too much for a unit that costs only 100g. And trail of darkness is not a completely worthless ability and totally appropriate for the shadow unit.

Quoted from TL:

Yes but how do you know if massing that stack of level 4's actually proved to be an effective strategy? We need tests, not just for fun or ladder games.

Concerning storm priests, even at double price(used to cost 100g) they are very useful to recruite with heal, magic relay, and hurl lightning.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-04-2006 @ 00:54 AM).]

truepurple if u win all u did is more effective than did your opponents and its most best test

Ok, you got one player building just a few level 4's and another player building just another 4's and one person wins. So what does that prove about the usefulness of level 4's?

Theres allot of other game factors for winning too. What to attack with how much force, what kind of force & when, what order to construct things. Also how to split an opponents forces using traps, cheesy double moves, how to move first via turning off autosave or using the M key etc.

If we really want to know how useful/not useful level 4's etc are compared to the lower level units. We need to try the tests I suggested or something like it. Just playing regular games won't show much. You'll not know if someone who won and built a few level 4's won because of the level 4's or despite them.

To actually be a bit scientific about it and not just ask the guy who wins most or something.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-04-2006 @ 00:58 AM).]

TP, I think I have played enough games as Archons to understand the usefulness of each of their units.

Avengers are specialists - specialists against evil. Their ranged attack, while useful, is very effective only behind walls. With their low def, they are almost evens with the Crusader when it comes to melee fighting - where the Crusaders block and higher def helps.

Your Avenger had - Holy strike, Holy immunity, Holy champion, Round attack, Turn undead.
Crusader has - Holy strike, Holy immunity, Holy champion, Throw Spear, Block.
Why should I build the Avenger when the Crusader is far better for the investment?

Death Knights may be formidable without fire immunity but I still think they need it to become truly fearsome and be the Undead's answer to the Holy Archons. Besides, thematically, I think Death Knights should have all elemental immunities - fire, cold, lightning, poison and of course, death.

You are missing the points about the Titan. Best stats, good hp and holy strike (hard to counter) and the cost was only a little more than the other lvl4s - which on even terms, makes the Titan far more powerful...a slight increase in cost (to the cost in 4.5) would be better to even that out. A martyred Titan killed 2 gargoyles, a martyred lightning warrior and a couple of other units in a game I played. If that is not powerful, I don't know what is!

...and don't quote statements out of context! When I said you can mass lvl4s, it was a statement made in the context of adaptability to a new mod by standard-rules players! Whether they are effective or not, to quote Air - if the player wins, they are effective indeed.
Trying to set up a scientific experiment will not work for a game...how will you set up tests without magic? Every major battle has loads of magic in it, atleast 60-80 cp worth. Conducting tests including magic is extremely difficult as sphere assignments and skill choices cannot be made. Only through playing a game/mod for long can you gain an idea of the advantages/imbalances/etc.

As for the shadow, I still think you need to remove trail of darkness. There is no point in having invisibility and trail of darkness since they negate each other! The scenarios outlined by you, TP, are not appropriate. Why would a player not move a shadow if it is in unexplored area of another player? How do you know that area is unexplored by another player? You cannot sneak in behind another's trail....this is not an ability that toggles on and off. If you have to sneak in, you have to move, which means you leave a trail.
As for domain of darkness, you don't need the shadow then. Even if you move the shadow within an enemy's vision range inside your domain of darkness, the trail will still give him away!!!

Edit: Air, I still don't have a connection. I will be travelling in another couple of weeks time so don't think I will take it now...but I will be online after 2 weeks.

[This message has been edited by Timelord (edited 04-04-2006 @ 07:18 AM).]

Quoted from TL:

20 in all stats!

Quoted from TL:

No they aren't. If that were the case they wouldn't have fire stuff or round attack for example. And "specialists against evil" is a very broad "specialism". One that to some extent the whole archon race is "specialist" in.

Quoted from TL:

Range attack is useful when not behind walls too. I thought you know that. And unlike archers they have decent defense and good attack to really retaliate.

Quoted from TL:

Your missing that the avenger has more attack, more damage ("my version" at least)almost 50% more more resistance. You speak of spells in game..

But your list did show me something, crusaders were given holy champion.(well it was moved from gold to start out) A bad idea. Crusaders should also lose that marksmanship IMO. Perhaps some archons shouldn't have holy strike?

Quoted from TL:

My main point about the titan is that other level 4's should be brought up to the same gold/toughness ratio. Not the titan brought down to be yet another pathetic level 4.

Quoted from TL:

How does invisibility negate trail of darkness? Also don't forget invisibility also disguises numbers, trail of darkness certainly doesn't negate that. Trick a player into attacking a seemingly weak army and for them only to find out its much large (and out of MP to escape)

Quoted from TL:

As a spy of course.

Quoted from TL:

Well if another unit with trail of darkness has gone through a area and its not in range of vision you can know. Otherwise you can't know for sure, helps to have a spy already there.

Quoted from TL:

What are you talking about. I meant having a single shadow, a army with a shadow in it, or a hero with trail of darkness etc... going through the area.. then a second shadow following and staying behind. Or a army of shadows for that matter.

Quoted from TL:

Hello?! For the invisibility and for the attacking, not for the trail of darkness.

Quoted from TL:

Once again, as a spy, or as a undetected early alert unit.
Timelord: Doctor, it hurts when I bend my thumb like this.
Doctor: Then don't bend your thumb like that.

Don't move that spy/early alert unit and trail of darkness won't give it away.

You talk about people not accepting dwiggs because it requires new strategy, yet can't see the potential use of invisibility on a unit with trail of darkness. Just because it requires more thinking, doesn't mean that invisibility can't be useful.

Even more possible stratagy...
Move a shadow as to attack one town, but your shadow free army to attack another. Because of the invisability they won't know its only a single unit unless they send a scout to attack. (and even then you misdirected them up to that point)

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-05-2006 @ 01:36 AM).]

Do you ever read another's posts completely?

I have played enough with Archons to realize Crusaders are comparable in worth for their money as the Avengers. Don't compare one-on-one....think about the cost, investment in structures and upkeep! Nerfing Avengers to Crusader-like abilities is not going to help the Avenger.

I didn't say the Titan had to be nerfed down. I said the cost has to be increased. If you had ever tried Archons online, you would realize that they are very powerful.

On the shadow...
So, the only use of invisibility on the shadow is if you want to use him as a spy in the initial few turns of the game...later on, if you decide to use him, its only to exploit his trail of darkness. Why invisibility then? I might as well use a concealed scout. The whole point about invisibility is the element of surprise...which the shadow loses with his trail of darkness. I am not saying Trail of Darkness is not useful...for the shadow, it is not!

Stranger, Archons should also have true-seeing units. Avenger and Paladin, atleast.

[This message has been edited by Timelord (edited 04-05-2006 @ 03:40 AM).]

My apologies to you all; I am one of the reasons that this is not finished.

Stranger asked me to write the last few unit descriptions several days ago, and I said I would.

That was before I found a box of old game stuff and started selling it off. My God! What an experience that has been... $4K already and counting...

My apologies; the descriptions will be finished today. I'm as anxious as any of you to lay hands on the complete project. Long Live Dwiggs XVI!

Hold on there Kaskoid! You can't take all the credit...er...blame

I've been quite busy with school and soccer lately, but have more time due to a torn sartorious muscle. Hurray! I guess....

Anyway, my inclination is to agree with True Purple on the Shade. For 100 gold, I don't think it's a bad value, despite Trail of Darkness. Of course, you could always make a couple Shades, have them run around in crazy loops and totally confuse your opponent

On the Avenger, possibly he could lose the ranged attack at silver. I've taken off Fire Immunity but kept Fire Strike. I agree with True Purple about making the unit an offensive one, but I think Timelord is right in pointing out that the unit's current skill set render it a formidable opponent of evil, more so than the other Archons.

I hope to see some of you for a game this weekend, and release the final mod next week.

Cheers,

BJ

Quoted from TL:

That arguement applies in spades to many a underpowered level 4's. Avengers are only level 2 and don't nearly require the same investment as a level 4. The difference in stats between a crusader and a avenger (especially "my version" with 12att and 8dam) Is at least if not more, the usual stat difference spread between the average level 3 and the average level 4.

Increasing the titans cost is nerfing it in a way. Don't nerf the titan, buff the other level 4's. My tests showed the titan to be equal (maybe slightly less) in strength to cost ratio as archons level 3's & 2's. That should be the case in all races. But sadly its definitely not.

Don't forget level 4's are notably more vulnerable to mighty meek, and require alot more experience to gain medals. Yet with their slight increase in stats over level 3's are barely worth the extra upkeep.

Quoted from TL:

Sometimes a picture is made not by what you add, but what you take away. Stranger, would you be willing to move holy champion to gold again on the crusaders and take away their initial marksmanship bonus? With holy champion gone on the crusader and instead requiring the enchantment... avenger starts to look more specialized in hurting evil. Plus with all the crusaders stuff and power, and level 1 status its too much. Likewise if not all archons had holy strike... But I liked the fire bolt, it made them more unique.(though didn't directly apply to their "anti-evil theme", but that theme is broad and hardly only applicable to them)

Paladins should be the answer to death knights, not avengers. What do you think of downgrading the avengers death immunity to death protection? (still applies with liquid form and death ray/bolts)

Also, what do you think of holy bolts becoming singular and fire bolt becoming plural? For them to switch spots and holy bolt being the high attack and damage spell and fire bolts being the lower attack/damage but 3 of them attack? I figure this fits well with the idea of holy and of fire. Holy would hone in and be a more certain thing, fire more unpredictable.

Quoted from TL:

Your talking to me about not completely reading a post? As I said, invisibility also disguesses numbers. Also as I said, via following a trail (of darkness of course) of another unit/army (that you control of course, or is allied to you) one could move a whole army of shadows unknown to the enemy for to plant a spy or suprise attack..

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-05-2006 @ 05:45 PM).]

That certainly is one crafty way to use them shadows... I'm still busy for like 2 more days, but then I should have plenty of time to edit both the spellbook, and the towers for the demon stuff. I guess the lizard cities have to wait a little then, although I might be able to make some experimental stuff.

Thus far I must say the mod works out very nicely. While I really haven't been able to try as much races as I'd like to (there are too many anyway), I think it works out cool Very nice descriptions too, some funny ones on the ooze and the dwarf brethren heroes. Haven't read a lot of the others yet though. I think there still might be some kinks in the cable, especially considering the demon stuff. (while I haven't tried them yet either)

It's about as different as 4.5 was from 3.0

Is it just me, or did you give the humans a magic penalty? Was it there before? Never really noticed it... But I certainly had the feeling it hurt me badly last game. Also those great eagles showed what their worth in that last game. Perhaps no good at defending or taking major cities, but still an amazingly fast striking force which can see miles ahead. If used in the right way on the right time, I think their worth their 'dough'.

I hope you guys liked the new racial images btw

Stranger avenger without fire immunity will be much more weak against demons, they are not supposed as evil anymore ?:P also immunity is offensive ability, because of it they can siege cities guarded by infernal gremlins and so on so better dont take theoretical suggestions so easy and break things that working now, as u can remember early beta version was close to Truepurple's suggestions and gametesting clearly shows its wrong way so why enter same trap second time? holy bolts is the most simple way keep differense between avenger and crusader, i dont see any real reason to remove it.

About that trail of darkness i can say that if opponent scouted area around his domain he will know shades are coming when they will be far away so it remove invisibility in most cases. i also think such ability that allow to notice your army far away is a handicap and can be added to balance some strong units, the question are shades so strong to get this handicap? if they will get concealment instead of invisiblity and no trail of darkness their efficiency will rise

Quoted from air:

Neither do I, neither have I. Noones suggested they lose holy bolts, what are you on about?

I see your point about fire immunity and deamons...

I hate the deamon race anyways, too bordering on the religious kind of deamon.. too begging to be pure evil yet only undead and special units (like fallen angels) can practicually speaking be that.

I miss the old races.

Quoted from air:

I wrote alot on this subject, and you totally ignore it! How.. irritating. Trail of darkness NEVER "removes" invisibility. You just need to be a bit more creative. Forgot how?

Crusaders should have holy champion put back at gold or removed altogether, as well as lose marksmanship. That will help make avengers more useful in comparison again evil units.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-05-2006 @ 06:22 PM).]

defender need to be careless to let invisibility work with trail of darkness, if he send scout to check what is moving to him u cant hide moving big shade stack in the trail of 1 shade so u can continue writing how to be creative, but i want to see how its working and we already tried crusader without holy champion in early beta, it didnt work good.

If he has a scout to dispose of nearby to do so, maybe even several scouts, one to check how many units in the party, one or more to check if that party has a tail. There is also using them as a spy.

Please be more specific about how crusaders- a dwarven axeman with more speed, throw spear with marksman 1, willpower and a little more resist plus enchanted weapon at silver and another marksmanship upgrade and holy champion at gold.. "didn't work"

Oh another low level unit with too much, wild blade, it should lose something, block sounds good.

[This message has been edited by TruePurple (edited 04-06-2006 @ 00:51 AM).]

TP, all your suggestions are theoretical! We tested the Crusader without holy champ and it sucked. Do you know the cost difference between a crusader/wildblade/dwarf axeman?. Do you know that the Archons have a gold penalty?

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Pure theory. What I am trying to point out is the effectiveness of the Titan over other lvl4s for the cost. As such, I don't believe in tests done without magic...my statements were made after trying them out in a game against other players - the only way to evaluate an online mod.

As for the shade, I still have my reservations...

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Nice strategy...against whom? The AI?
If a scout sees the trail of darkness and explores that area and sees no unit with trail of darkness, he is going to come close enough till he sees the shade...and quite possibly the other stack too. The other stack can't shift position when the scout approaches as that will give them away too due to the trail appearing again.
Trail of darkness and invisibility are useful traits but not in the same unit. For its cost and strength, giving it invisibility alone is not too much of an empowerment.

As I said, a lot of your posts are theory. I suggest trying atleast a few of your strategies online and see if they work.
Stranger, I don't see the reason to nerf the Avenger. You are a frequent player of Archons too...do you think he needs the nerf?