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Topic Subject: AoW2 is *not* a direct sequel to AoW!
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posted 08-23-02 08:48 PM EDT (US)   
Something I have long suspected - and now I have concrete evidence.

I finished Water Initiation, and now, listening to the intro to Water Mastery, about how the Serpent River flows into the ocean (I hope that just knowing that the Serpent River is present does not count as a major spoiler...).

Remembering the map of the Blessed continent from AoW, the Serpent River does not flow into the ocean. It flows into Blackwater Lake! Evidently, AoW2 is set on a very similar world as AoW with many of the same characters and places, but the specifics, including where some of the places are with respect to one-another, changes.

posted 09-18-02 05:46 PM EDT (US)     61 / 83  
Let me try to see if I understand this...

This from the timeline in the AoW manual:

(1) According to elven custom, the elven king rules for one thousand years and then passes into Evermore.

(2) Inioch was overthrown in 970 LIR - thirty years before his 'natural' resignation was to have taken place.

So, now, what I don't understand is...
(1) How Julia would not know about the thousand-year-reign custom. Surely somebody would have survived who would know that...
(2) What Inioch was like when he was alive. Was he evil before he became undead? Did he intend to stay in the Valley of Wonders after the millenium was up?
(3) How Julia "allowed" Gabriel to lead the Circle of Evermore. Julia has never been to Evermore, hasn't she? How, then, can she tell Gabriel what he can have and what he can't, except as it pertains to her own realm?

posted 09-18-02 05:46 PM EDT (US)     62 / 83  
Damn Inioch bein all "omg im gunna cause like a war" because he thinks he's cool. Hippay.
posted 09-18-02 05:53 PM EDT (US)     63 / 83  
Thanks for the info rayb.

Still, you must admit that many would be a little happier if you'd tied AoW and AoW 2 tighter together. Especially Beren.

I think it would have been interesting if Talic became the Wizard of the Dark Elves, and Meandor became the Wizard of the Undead, and Elric became a second Elf Wizard or Hero. None of the Cult endings in the original make Talic sound like he likes Meandor much anymore, so for the Death Sphere campaign maybe Merlin would help Talic against Meandor, who obviously would want to exterminate humanity. That way Merlin would have a good motive for helping evil. Then, in the Cosmos Campaign, maybe you'd have to help Elric and Julia kill Talic and defeat his Dark Elf armies because, no longer held back by the Undead, they try to take over the Valley of Wonders again, and kill Merlin, Julia, and Elric. Then probably Talic would learn about Evermore, and kill Joseph too, and become the ruler of both the Blessed Continent and the Circle.

Just some thoughts. What do you think?

[This message has been edited by Emperor_Bone14 (edited 09-18-2002 @ 05:55 PM).]

posted 09-18-02 05:59 PM EDT (US)     64 / 83  
Bone, have you seen the thing that I have been writing in the Book of Wonders?

Actually, now that you mention it, I have a suggestion about how the Highmen/Archons were separated from the Humans, is anybody would like to kick it around. The idea is that there was formerly a single race of beings, made in the image of some principal deity of good, who lived in the ocasionally-mentioned 'garden.' Indeed, there was a tree, and something corrupted this race - well, some of them; there were at least two couples. One subset ate from the tree in the middle of the garden, thus becoming capable of both good and evil, and the other didn't. The one that didn't is still holy and pure: the highmen/Archons. The other, Humans, were banished for their disobedience of the rules.

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 09-18-2002 @ 06:03 PM).]

posted 09-19-02 09:16 PM EDT (US)     65 / 83  
Actually that's part of why Inioch didn't relinquish the throne, according to "The Covenant" that the Archons and Elves shared, Inioch was supposed to only reign a short time, much shorter than 1000 years. He was supposed to be migrating the elves to Evermore.

Part of Inioch's justification was that he needed at least 1000 years to rule. (Though near the end it was clear he didn't intend to relinquish the throne even then. The humans jumped the gun (because of Meandor, who believed his father was going to claim that Meandor was unfit to rule, and claim that Inioch would need to raise Julia to be the next queen, thus allowing him more time on the throne.).

At least that's what was kinda going around in my head, I never fully workshopped it, so this is a great exercise...

The humans were actually "unleashed upon the world" right on schedule.

To put a kind of scifish/speculative bent on it all, just to know what I was thinking... I always thought of the Archons as having a symbiotic relationship with the Elves. Both are immortals. Archons move through the universe/planes/dimensions, whatever, finding and forming potential worlds, providing order out of chaos where they can, but they lack the role of nurturer that you need to make a cool world, beautiful and diverse. They can open rifts in space/time... etc... (this was what the new "Star" in AoW1 was all about, a rift for the fallen/slain Elves through which they returned... as you may recall from the campaign if you played the Highmen.)

The Elves, on the other hand, foster life, breath beauty and harmony. They are essentially "terraformers". From a single tear they can weave a lush forest. But they lack the power and cosmic presence to move/find new worlds.

Finally, The Humans are the Archon's offspring. Humans of exceedingly great virtue may pass on to becoming archons. Archons don't "reproduce" like we do... they enshrine the immortal souls of men with immortality, if they are disposed to exceedingly great virtue and righteousness.

In order for Humans to mature, however, they MUST be able to freely choose good over evil. If they are constrained to good or evil, then a soul does not grow as it should. Hence the need that Inioch leave, but Inioch, alas, became a devil, seeking to constrain the souls of men to the virtuous ways of Elves... and well... that boat don't float... as all of us humans know...


posted 09-20-02 02:03 PM EDT (US)     66 / 83  
So, was Inioch actually evil or just misguided?
posted 09-20-02 03:05 PM EDT (US)     67 / 83  
I think he was evil.
posted 09-20-02 03:42 PM EDT (US)     68 / 83  
I just thought of something else...

If Meandor set up Inioch's fall, then why was he so enraged at the humans when they did what he wanted them to do? Or did they go too far? Or were other, darker, forces already acting on Meandor?

Anyhow, Bone, you think Inioch was evil. I can think of several pieces of evidence that he was just misguided.

Evidence for Evil:
-Concealed information from the Keepers, including Elwyn, it seems.
-Appeared to want to rule for longer than Elven tradition would normally allow, in the first right.

Evidence for Misguided Good:
-Organized the Keepers around the principles of light.
-Summoned Syrons to protect the lands from Altars of Death, etc (see AoW1 map, "First Conflict").
-Tried to impose the Elves' *virtuous* ways upon humanity, instead of simply letting humans choose.

Of course, with RayB here, he can just tell us...

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 09-20-2002 @ 04:12 PM).]

posted 09-25-02 05:18 PM EDT (US)     69 / 83  
So, was Inioch ever good? Or was he bad to the bone before he became walking bones?
posted 09-25-02 05:45 PM EDT (US)     70 / 83  
You're right. He probably started off good, and he turned evil when he died. He just loved his job too much, I guess, though I'd pick ruling Evermore over the Blessed Continent.
posted 09-26-02 04:01 PM EDT (US)     71 / 83  
Well I'm not sure - that's why I'm asking. As I presented, there is evidence either way.

One thing is for certain: if he was good, then he had an oversupply of classic Elvish arrogance (The problem with elves ruling humans is that elves think that they and that their ways are better than humans', so this leads to resentment. It probably doesn't help that the elves are right, too).

posted 09-28-02 01:25 PM EDT (US)     72 / 83  
Hmmm... I'd like to settle this issue...
posted 10-18-02 01:44 PM EDT (US)     73 / 83  
(sorry for late replies here, I don't read the board much anymore... been busy doing other things... )

Anyhow-- Meandor setup Inioch's Fall, but he misjudged the humans, as badly as his father had. I started a story snippet in which Meandor was caught in the slaughter of his people. In the Fall, Meandor was nearly slain, and mistaken for dead. He was thrown into a pile of the corpses of his fallen friends and family of Inioch's Court. He remained trapped in a pile of dead, unable to move, during that time he kinda snapped.

Like people often do when they make a collossal mistake but aren't humble enough to admit it was their fault, nor can they admit it for the sake of their own fear of shame, Meandor blamed the Humans entirely for the Fall of Inioch's Court. Meandor intended to USE the humans to gain power, but he never anticipated them coming with such force. In the "Flight of Elwyn" I allude to a betrayal, I seem to believe. The betrayal was Meandor's doing. He had to garantee his father would not escape.

As to whether Inioch was evil. I don't typically view characters as "Evil" or "Good" at least not until they've done lots of nasty stuff... Inioch was a selfish ruler who was filled with pride and stubbornness. He thought he knew better, and he thought he could beat the system, the agreements that had been established by the Archon/Elf covenants. He was smart. He was a good ruler for most subjects. He ruled justly, for the most part. But he didn't take the time to understand the Humans, and near the end of his rule become indifferent about the impact his actions would have on his court. He believed he could rule by sheer will, rather than being a servant to his people (which all good rulers should be). He bought into his own myth.

Both Inioch and Meandor refused to take responsibility for their mistakes. They blamed those around them for their errors. Ironically in death, Inioch turned into a monster, while (as we learn in AoW2) in death, Meandor comes to grips with his past sins, and ends up a hero, of sorts.

So in a way there's a nice bit of closure on the loop of the tragedy of Inioch and Meandor, in that the sins of the father were overcome by the sins of the son.

Anyhow those are a few more thoughts on the subject. All in all there's a lot of material here, at one point Lennart and I talked about the possibility of doing a novel, which is why it is so detailed, just as a setting. Unfortunately that never happened, but I've long thought the story would make a good novel if told in the right way... (would be hard to choose a good viewpoint character... for example...)

Best regards, --Ray

posted 10-18-02 05:56 PM EDT (US)     74 / 83  
A novel about the story of AoW? I'd buy that for sure.

- All you need is love -

The Wizards of Creation

posted 10-18-02 06:56 PM EDT (US)     75 / 83  
So what about poor Julia? Is she just caught up in it all, never supposed to have even existed?
posted 10-18-02 09:33 PM EDT (US)     76 / 83  

Quoted from Beren V:

So what about poor Julia? Is she just caught up in it all, never supposed to have even existed?

How did you possibly read that into what Ray just posted?

posted 10-19-02 01:38 AM EDT (US)     77 / 83  
"Quoted from Beren V:

So what about poor Julia? Is she just caught up in it all, never supposed to have even existed?

How did you possibly read that into what Ray just posted? "

The idea that Inioch was supposed to be migrating the Elves to Evermore suggested to me that he was not supposed to be producing any more heirs; the Elves were done with this world. In this way, Meandor was not supposed to be, either. There is also the suggestion that Inioch concieved Julia because he wanted to claim her to be his heir... and after Inioch's 1000 years would have been up, Julia would have been 31 - probably pre-pubescent and certainly not ready to have the throne yet, so Inioch would be able to not only break his treaty with the High Men but also break Elven custom of the reign of a king being a millenium.

So, I concluded, that if this argument were true, the pact with the High Men suggests that Julia should never have been concieved.

Anyhow, as for Meandor, you mean he has no alterior motives for helping Merlin? He may be fighting against the Conspirators, but he still seems pretty evil...

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 10-19-2002 @ 01:40 AM).]

posted 10-22-02 06:09 PM EDT (US)     78 / 83  
Excuse me, Ray. I'm fascinated by everything Fantasy and when I read the part about the possibility of a novel, I couldn't resist.

My brother and I have always been big into magic, warfare, and the like. I have countless games and books concerning the fantasy world. AoW is probably the best fantasy game I've ever seen or played personally. Like I said, I have many books and one struck me exceptional. Harry Turtledove is noted for his alternate history. Well, he took a World War II scenario and placed it in a world where magic works. After reading a couple books of the series I saw that AoW could easily fit into the same thing. So...I go to make a custom campaign with some of my random ideas. In the Map Descriptions I ended up writing pages upon pages, so I decided to compile it and have a pretty nice history, richly detailed and all that fun stuff. Good plot, etc. I have a Renaissance-fanatic for a Creative Writing teacher and I turned in the story, she loved it, but did something I didn't treasure at all. She wrote "Very 'Lord of the Ring'ish" Considering I've never read any J.R.R. Tolkien I was a little insulted, but oh well.

I know I'm rambling but can't help it. Anyway, currently I have a 20+ page history of a world very similar to the AoW world. The names of "Highmen","Azrac","Frostling" and a couple of others have been changed, but if you were to read it you'd be able to discern the similarities. Not exactly sure where I was going with this, but basically here it is I'D LOVE TO SEE AN AOW NOVEL!

Just my crappy opinion.

Yes, I'm a buffoon.

Stop turning into the penguin.

posted 10-23-02 10:28 AM EDT (US)     79 / 83  

Quoted from rayb AoW:

(would be hard to choose a good viewpoint character... for example...)

How about making several novelettes? Each one could weave a different story into the whole, each being based on a different race's viewpoint of the greater story. I think that could make for an interesting story (although a nice challenge for the writer).

It has the added advantage that you would be able to write at least 12 books!!

posted 10-23-02 05:00 PM EDT (US)     80 / 83  
Well, there are writers that weave stories from many viewpoints. For instance, if a nation was at war:

a commanding general (either)
a captain or such
a random bard/villager caught in a battle
an orphan as a result of the war
a mage/monk type guy in a city who helps with wounded

Its actually very simple...

One by one the penguins steal my sanity...
posted 11-01-02 10:24 AM EDT (US)     81 / 83  
I'm quite fascinated by reading all this. I thing it would become an interesting novel...

A Novel would have the Problem that it had to be written from a certain point of View - and to fully understand everything that is outlined, it should be from the POV of someone with enough knowledge to be able to explain all this. "Standing on higher ground", so to say.

"It's pretty clear also that the Archons had something to do with the "creation" or "arrival" of the Humans. (They came from a Garden, wherein they were cast out, and you can bet there was a tree there, along with a cherubim and flaming sword... )"

Amazing thought ... Humans "kept" (?) in a garden, like children not ripe enough to go out into the world...

posted 11-01-02 03:29 PM EDT (US)     82 / 83  
My interpretation:

There was a Garden of Eden with a tree in the center, as per the Book of Genesis, once AoWicized. However, there were at least two couples in that garden (more than one Adam, more than one Eve). Of those couples, some of them ate from the Tree of Knowledge and Good and Evil, and some didn't.

Those that sinned originally are now capable of both alignments, are condemned to die ("ashes to ashes, dust to dust"). These are the Humans.

Others did not gain capacity of both alignments. They are still pure, and, as such, immortal. These are the High Men.

'Archons' is, in my impression, a blanket term for all kinds of pure, angellic beings, with their leader's name being chosen after a biblical Archangel, Gabriel.

posted 11-01-02 06:55 PM EDT (US)     83 / 83  
I just thought that.

No, what actually fascinated me was the point of view as Humans as "Children" being kept in a safe House or like animals in a zoo.

I don't think that it was intended as the latter, but it could explain why Humans reacted in such a way on "The Blessed Continent".

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