Quoted from Enginerd:

if two people mutually agree to be team-mates (one yellow, one green) then should I take that into account when putting the teams together?

Yes, definitely. I was going to point out that there's already a rule that if one team member drops out the team loses. I think the concensus was this is a necessary evil to keep the tourney moving (but it's still a bit unfair to the remaining team member.) Well, it's even more unfair if you don't get to choose who you're playing with. So I think everyone should get to choose to the extent possible. Enginerd would eventually have to assign everyone to a team who hasn't already found one, of course.

Hard to say from Arctic, but I believe that Draco will be interested in this. It's just that I have a feeling that he is just being very busy with those Legendary Twins of his (especially that poor and unfortunate little Evie ). Hopefully we can wait for him.

im in slipkyesbass@gmail.com

I'm definitely a newbie btw

[This message has been edited by slipkyes (edited 03-09-2009 @ 02:53 PM).]

Header updated.

It's a consensus then

Pick your teammate, one green and one yellow. Either email me or post here. I'd like the teams to be mutually agreed upon and if you don't want to bother with finding a teammate from the list then I'll pick one for you in the end.

Still waiting to see who else signs up and then I'll put Fubarno (a solid SM player that keeps beating up on me in those games but likely rusty from not having played with us in awhile) and CSH in a group. One of you is likely to be green if I'm the 18th player.

Draco and AW still have a few days and Draco's life might get back to normal soon as his daughter is out of the hospital (they'd both be green players if they signed up)

Now what did that 9 team tourney bracket look like , not quite as bad as the 10 team bracket (silly me... thinking we'd probably only have 6 or so teams )

I'm green? I haven't won a single AoW1 pbem game yet... (I defeated you in SM once, but it's a different game)

[This message has been edited by PawelS (edited 03-10-2009 @ 08:51 PM).]

Oh... but your reputation is solid in SM.... it must have influenced my decision... (and wasn't that loss to Draco and he's no slouch). I can make you yellow if you like... you're in the same boat as fubarno. CSH won't mind being green

Maybe you can make an "intermediate" category, so some teams would consist of 2 intermediate players? I think I'd fit there...

And I thought a 9 team bracket was tough.... now we've got green's yellows and.... blues? Oh this is fun....

It's really tough to split 18 players into two groups evenly... we've got some solid greens, some solid yellows and some inbetween (as Pawel points out).... in the end I think it will all work out... you could always ask Fubarno to be your partner... then we've got a SM team!

Anyways.... I'm looking at the brackets.... and I need some final input... I'm leaning towards option 1 to keep momentum going unless there is strong opposition.

Option 1: I do a really crazy round robin type style startup where you only play 2 teams in your group (I said it was crazy) then every team gets to play two games starting next week.... same map but they'll play opposite sides. Don't ask about the later rounds as it is too complicated.... but some teams will get eliminated after the first round. I think I can wind this one up in 4 rounds, maybe 5 depending on how many teams go 1-1 in the first round. It also might mean playing a 3 team FFA to eliminate teams faster in the latter rounds (and I've got a map in mind for that one).

Option 2: I do a classic double elimination tourney so every team gets to play at least two games but only one game starts next week. Oh... and there will be one or two teams that get "byes" from the first round so they won't start playing for several weeks. There would be about 6 rounds or so. Much slower getting started.

I just realized if we were using the Swiss System we might not even need two groups. (Bit late for that, I guess.)

How it works: the system chooses teams that are evenly matched based on past performance to face each other. In the first round, the teams would have to be ranked subjectively by Enginerd, and the #1 team would face #2 and so on. (The only alternative would be to make the initial matchups random.) From then on, the teams are ranked by number of wins, and the top 2 teams continue to play each other every round (and the #3 and #4 teams and so on. Of course, sometimes two or more teams will be tied for second place, especially in round 2 where half the teams are 1-0, in which case the tiebreaker would be the initial ranking based on Enginerd's opinion.)


Actually on second thought, this system has a lot of advantages even with the current teams...it's more efficient at determining a winner than even single elimination, but it can be played with any even number of teams and no one has to be eliminated.

(I don't think the math works for double elimination unless we get at least 12 teams, and even then you'd have to give 4 teams a bye...maybe there's some trick I don't know of.)


Edit: "even with the current teams" means even under the current system of one green and one yellow...

[This message has been edited by disenchanted (edited 03-11-2009 @ 12:59 PM).]

I'm green? Has it been so long from the last time that you have already forgotten Enginerd.. in the Riverland wars you crumbled my attempts to found a Luciferian Empire with those warp-party Highmen And althought I have won some pbem games, I have aswell lost to Thorongil "numerous times", so I am way out of your league. But in case you do not wish to reconsider and there will be no "avarages", then let's do it:

Deroman and Slipkyes

Green is good (oh yeah... I do remember that game now).

Yeah, the double elim brackets have byes and I'm not too keen on that right off the start. I do want to give teams a chance to play at least two games though so that's why I looked at them.

Swiss tourney brackets has potential, I've looked into them and will probably go look at them again. I've got some crazy ideas, need to flesh it out more though and in the end it may look like one of the 500 modified swiss systems. I want to try and get down to 4 teams so we can finish up with a semi-finals and finals.

No way... I do not want to try and rank 9-10 teams... it's hard enough just splitting you guys into two groups then we complicate things by giving you partners, a team ranking... YIKES! Random seeding of teams

Map for Round 1 - with 9 or 10 teams I'm thinking of starting with Thinreed Lake as it's smaller and will be a quicker finish.

I'm not sure I see the point of doing n-2 rounds with a Swiss system and then doing the semifinals and finals single-elimination style, as opposed to just doing n rounds. The former would tend to be a subset of the matches you'd get with the latter, and I don't see why everyone can't continue playing if they want. Yes, elimination could lead to different matches being played, but the whole point is that the Swiss method selects the most informative* matches, so if there is a difference, it will be an undesirable one. For example, having the best player play the second-best adds more information than having the best play the worst, so you find out who the "real" champion is faster and more reliably. By comparison, elimination is a very poor gauge of skill (for example, if the "true" #2 player is eliminated in round 1 by the #1 player, obviously that doesn't mean he's worse than everyone who got eliminated in round 2. So all of the outcomes are meaningless except the final game.)

Actually, that's only part of the point...let me just point out what I think are the 4 biggest practical advantages of the Swiss system:

1. Faster and more accurate
2. Ranks everyone instead of providing just one winner (more informative, plus this way everyone has something to aim for)
3. No one is eliminated. Everyone gets to keep playing, and have a chance to improve their standing, until the end.
4. Works with any even number with no byes (or odd numbers with one bye)

I'm not trying to be argumentative (it was an accident! ) But I don't see what is accomplished by switching the last 2 rounds to an elimination format, other than eliminating benefits 1-3. I guess you could argue that having a single, final match is more exciting than a decision based on points or ranking. (But ranking is what really determines the best player.)

You can also look at the ranking produced by this system as a microcosm of, or more accurately a useful compliment to the ladder. The important difference is that it's just a snapshot. Essentially, the ladder takes into account all a player's past accomplishments, which makes it hard for new players to catch up now that the volume of games is lower, which I believe is why we were contemplating doing a ladder reset. The tournament ranking bypasses this problem by only considering the tournament games, so basically it's a good indication of who the best (and worst) players are right now. So I guess I'd suggest just keeping the ladder and making a separate ranking for each tournament - it's the best of both worlds. (The tournament results tell a similar story, compared with actually resetting the ladder, but the ladder tells the full story, and the experts get to keep their laurels.)

Note (for Xtreme nerds only): the Swiss method seems to resemble a bubble sort algorithm and requires at least N*log N games for N players. (That's log2 N rounds.)

*Edit...for extreme Xtreme nerds only: I actually mean this in the information theoretic sense, although the ordinary definition of information works too. That is, I think the Swiss method comes close to maximizing the Kullback–Leibler divergence of the probability distributions of the ranking before and after each round.

[This message has been edited by disenchanted (edited 03-12-2009 @ 00:35 AM).]

I agree with disenchantlered, if anyone cares. :-P


As far as a map, might I suggest Roger's "Warm Crevice" map for consideration? It is small, balanced, and perfect as a 4 player scenario...

Also, it can be downloaded here

[This message has been edited by Thorongil (edited 03-12-2009 @ 01:32 AM).]

I care!

My name is Disenchanted though...it magically changes to Disenchantlered every December and then changes back at the stroke of midnight on January 1.

your weird. But I can agree with you, it does make sense, I wouldn't cry if it was enginerd's idea either, but that swiss method seems to be very effective in proving who's really the best

I can only add some RL experience with the swiss system being used often in Magic the Gathering tournaments. It works very well, and it is always some extra tension if you end up finding yourself sitting on "table 1". I can warmly recommend the swiss system from past MtG experiences and I think it would work out very well in an AoW tournament too.

I'm in. I think I can get back on track with my turns now that my daughter is finally home from the hospital.

draco@heavengames.com

Last chance for one more person to sign in, if we want Enginerd to take part in this tourney...

Header updated, made CSH and Fubarno green.... although if by some chance AW signs up and I make the 20th player then I'll bump Fubarno back down to yellow (sorry mate ). In the extreme unlikelyhood that we ge several other players in the next day well then... I'll think of something

All right... Swiss it is... sort of. I'm going to do two games in round 1 and start them at the same time so every team plays 2 games right from the start and there are no "byes" this round. (9 games) One point for victory, no points for a loss. Round 2 will start after those initial games are completed using the Swiss system, teams will be ranked from 1st to 9th (at this stage teams will have either 0, 1 or 2 points). First tie breaker is head to head result, second tie breaker is score of opponents played, third tie breaker is random seed at the start (yeah, I'll give everyone new team numbers and randomize them).

Round 2 map will be different... team in the number one spot will pick the map (I must aprove it so don't pick an XL epic or I'll make you find another one).... teams in the lower ranking will pick their side first (another incentive to pick a good balanced map). Someone will get a bye this round with 9 teams. I'm voting on the team that ends up dying because someone stopped playing... we have yet to go through one round without it happening otherwise we'll have to randomly pick a team I guess. No repeats of team vs team, you get new opponents throughout the tourney. You can only get a bye once.

Round 3 - map will be different... same as round 2, you'll be ranked again, someone gets a bye

Round 4 - map will be different... same as round 3, you'll be ranked again, someone gets a bye

5 games total (4 if you had bye). That should be enough to score an overall winner... although I may reserve the right to have championship game after round 4... we'll worry about that during Round 3.

Round 1 looks like this

Team 1 vs Team 2
Team 2 vs Team 3
Team 3 vs Team 4
Team 4 vs team 5
etc
Team 9 vs Team 1

Question for Round 2 (you swiss experts out there ) which do you prefer, what one works better... (I've seen way too many variants of the swiss system the last few days. I need a place to start with the teams before I see if they've already played each other)

Team Rank 1 vs Team Rank 3
Team Rank 2 vs Team Rank 4
Team Rank 5 vs Team Rank 7
Team Rank 6 vs Team Rank 8

or

Team Rank 1 vs Team Rank 5
Team Rank 2 vs Team Rank 6
Team Rank 3 vs Team Rank 7
Team Rank 4 vs Team Rank 8

or

Team Rank 1 vs Team Rank 2... etc

And for the nerdy guy that I am... what an interesting read that article was on Wiki

And... since you guys like to provide input on the stuff going on at this site ... go here and we can talk about a singles swiss tourney or something else

I'll try and put together a nice link to a bracket picture so it's easier to see... maybe do that in my not so spare time this weekend.

Hurry up and pick your partner... or I'll assign them in a couple days....

I'm not sure I understand your question...the first-ranked team always plays the second-ranked team, and so on. (It wouldn't be a Swiss system otherwise.) The rankings do change every round, of course.

You and AW should definitely play if possible...what's his status?

I saw way too many different swiss setups with how they pair up the teams this week in researching it, I showed 3 expamples in the post. There were many other variants for many different reasons and they all melt together after awhile . I just wanted to know which way you guys had seen be successful. I'm good with 1v2, 3v4, etc. Rerank after each round obviously.

I'll bug AW one more time... we'll see.

Well, I wasn't aware of any of the variants, so I don't know. I was just reading the wikipedia article on round robin tournaments when I found the article on the Swiss system, and realized it had a lot of advantages. But it would seem like having the #1 team play the #5 team is not the best way to arrive at a ranking, for the reasons I just described. Maybe someone familiar with the system and its variants can explain the reason for doing it that way, otherwise I would suggest going with the original idea of trying to minimize the difference in rank between opponents. (The only exception to this that makes sense to me (as of right now) is to limit the number of times 2 teams can play each other.)

Yeah, you will only play the same team once (except maybe in the last round or championship round for a big finale).

AW won't be able to join in the tourney, got his email yesterday. Sign ups are closed. Tomorrow I'll set up the rest of the teams. Busy day tomorrow with mapmaking stuff going on so be a tad patient and we'll get all these things going.

I mailed Draco if he would team up with me (he's the only one of the advanced players I have played with) but he hasn't replied yet.

Game threads opened up.... have not sent the first turns out... it will happen soon (and then I'll post in each individual thread).

I only had to type in 40 emails so I hope I got them all correct when I put them in there. One can hope!

Good luck everyone.

First turns have been sent out.

Hey Enginerd, I think the mail for Fubarno is not working - at least, the one up there.

Header updated.... check out the link for the tourney brackets... hope you enjoy

Looks good, Enginerd

[This message has been edited by Froster (edited 03-22-2009 @ 08:29 PM).]

@Enginerd:

Can you make it clear that all the participants must use the 1.36 patch? There are some problems with games where Alphonze56 is playing (sent turns are not ended, alliances are broken). I contanced him by email and he wrote to me that he uses version 1.0 of the game and refuses to patch it.