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Topic Subject: Best Level 1 unit? Is there one?
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posted 11-30-01 11:16 PM EDT (US)   
This is probably one of the more interesting posts I have made. Which do you think is the best of these level one extra units:

Giant Frog-odd critter things
Boar-odd critter things
Nymph-Elves
Mermaid-Maverick (whatever that is)
Lady of Pain-Darkelves
Dire Penguin!-Frostlings
Slug-Lizardmen
Wolf-odd critter things
Scorpion-Azracs
Elephant-Azracs
Spirit Puppet-High Men

Let me know what you think.
Also let me know what Basic Infantry you
like best and think is the best.


I squee'd like a fangirl when the Frostlings were announced for AoW3. True story.
Replies:
posted 06-21-04 10:41 PM EDT (US)     31 / 67  
I love to have Kobolds running around. Put 2 Kobolds and 6 Orc Swordsmen in a stack... Nothing like Poison Strike to liven up the attacks of your swordsmen...

All neutral specials are insanely cool... Although I'll normally avoid the slug since it doesn't have Swimming. Good is hit and miss. Pony Rider and Barbarians are good, but boring. Nymphs and Spirit Puppets are insanely cool. Evil is excellent. I dislike the Ladies of Pain (It's the yellow skin... I don't like the yellow skin...), but Bombers, Kobolds, and Hell Hounds are insanely cool. It's fun to use Hell Hounds to run across lava on some maps.

For non-special, I'd take Orc Swordsman, Goblin Darter, Elephant (Although if they had a Turtle Battering Ram, I'd grab that instead)

posted 06-22-04 02:47 AM EDT (US)     32 / 67  
I dont like kobold for one reason;
Anyone here heard of "Kobold error 4??", it really drove me nutz in the beta 0.9 .

I have gone to find myself.
If i get back before i return, keep me here.
posted 06-22-04 10:17 AM EDT (US)     33 / 67  
i must say, even with orcs, i build more archers at lvl1. i don't think its worth the upkeep to mass orcish lvl1 units, except you plan to waste them soon and free that upkeep.

Honored Core Balance Team Member of UPatch 1.4
Also known as TirAsleen
Dwiggsvillain
posted 06-24-04 04:19 PM EDT (US)     34 / 67  
bombers suck! they don't have that much atack and damage, and always die before attacking.

The calvary charges...
posted 06-25-04 02:27 AM EDT (US)     35 / 67  
elephants --- very very effective at lvl 1 as they have 9hp instead of 5 and not to mention wall crushing. I think the azracs are the best rushers in the game. Elves are good rushers too as their swordsmen have 5att and the archers, well no comment bout that.. halflings are very tough too
posted 06-25-04 10:18 PM EDT (US)     36 / 67  
I don't think 5 Attack is that great. It doesn't offset their 2 damage enough. It makes it easier for them to hit other swordsmen, but not by much. It's the only swordsman with a reliable chance of hitting, say, 5 defense, but in my experience anything with 5 def eats swordsmen for breakfast.


And Kobold Error 4, fortunately, has not shown up since the beta (Although I seem to remember it being a MAJOR pain at that point... or was that something else... hmmmmm....)

posted 06-26-04 06:09 PM EDT (US)     37 / 67  
Most people think of Elephants as an attacking unit with wall crushing on the side, but Elephants aren't just hardy attack units with a battering ram ability, they ARE good battering rams. They are 50% faster than other battering rams, and can actually earn medals in battle. Four defence and the extra hit point, AND the ability to retaliate - makes for a hardy sturdy battering ram.

What was Kobold error four, anyway?

[This message has been edited by Natalinasmpf (edited 06-26-2004 @ 06:10 PM).]

posted 06-29-04 11:52 AM EDT (US)     38 / 67  
Average Human Swordsman damage against a unit with 2 defence = 1,5 per strike. Average Elf Swordsman damage against a unit with 2 defence = 1,2 per strike. Human is 20% stronger.

Against 5 defence it's 0,9 for Humans and 0,8 for Elves. Human is 12,5% stronger.

Against 6 defence it's 0,7 for Humans and 0,65 for Elves. Human is 8% stronger.

Against 7 defence it's 0,5 for both.

Against 8 defence it's 0,3 for Humans (10% chance to hit) and 0,35 for Elves (20% chance to hit). Elf is 17% stronger.

Against 9 and 10 defence it's 0,3 for Humans and 0,2 for Elves. Human is 50% stronger.

This is asuming that the two have no medals and no enchantments.

As you can see the only reason to build Elf Swordsmen is forestry (they can move together with Elf Archers through forests).

One more thing about Halfling Swordsmen: 1 vs 1 they are as strong as Elves (in mellee Parry has the same effect as +1 defence as long as the enemy doesn't have charge) and therefore weaker than Human Swordsmen. What makes them good is the fact that it takes longer to kill them, so your ranged troops get in a few extra shots.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.

[This message has been edited by LordDragatus (edited 06-29-2004 @ 11:54 AM).]

posted 06-29-04 01:57 PM EDT (US)     39 / 67  

Quote:

As you can see the only reason to build Elf Swordsmen is forestry (they can move together with Elf Archers through forests).

One more thing about Halfling Swordsmen: 1 vs 1 they are as strong as Elves (in mellee Parry has the same effect as +1 defence as long as the enemy doesn't have charge) and therefore weaker than Human Swordsmen. What makes them good is the fact that it takes longer to kill them, so your ranged troops get in a few extra shots.

Elven swordsmen also have high resistance.

You realise that Elven swordsmen are meant to be used in conjunction with their archers. Once you fire upon some human swordsmen twice, reduced him to 2-3 HP (unless you're really lucky), it doesn't really matter that your Elven swordsmen have less damage. That 5 attack is handy, since you want to be able to hit, quickly, and fast. The extra damage point isn't really needed to finish off archer targets and not gaining an extra +1 attack in the process.

And yes, you have also stumbled upon the use for Halfling Short Swordsmen. They are meant to be support units to help protect their slingers. And shield them.

posted 06-30-04 04:40 PM EDT (US)     40 / 67  

Quote:

And yes, you have also stumbled upon the use for Halfling Short Swordsmen. They are meant to be support units to help protect their slingers. And shield them.

Exactly. Same for the goblin spearmen. After darters have poisoned and damaged an attacking swordsman the spearmens first strike will hopefully finish them off.


Certainty is the enemy, I think.
posted 07-04-04 04:28 PM EDT (US)     41 / 67  
With first strike, spearmen are more of a defensive unit.

The calvary charges...
posted 07-05-04 06:18 AM EDT (US)     42 / 67  
Pikemen are also nice, better than human swordsman IMHO, not much more expensive, better damage and attack.

===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================
posted 07-06-04 12:10 PM EDT (US)     43 / 67  
Er ... acording to my knowledge they Pikemen are just Swordsmen with first strike (which btw is a very useful ability).

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 07-10-04 12:54 PM EDT (US)     44 / 67  
I can't remember (or never knew in the first place) - how does charge work with first strike? Does the first striker get the bonus (if he's got charge)? Does the attacker get it? Does parry work in the same way?
posted 07-11-04 03:24 AM EDT (US)     45 / 67  
First strike only works when you defend yourself against an attack. According to my information charge only works when you attack. A unit with both would get to use both, but obviously not at the same time. Unless of course you attack another unit with first strike, then it should be the same as if neither had first strike.

I belive parry works on both attack and defence and even protects you against round attacks.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 07-14-04 01:33 PM EDT (US)     46 / 67  
When doing a little research for my halfling guide i made a few tests(as usual), and they clearly shown one thing; parry always works when defending(not attacking).

First strike does nothing but to erase the charge effect, thats the way it is...(Though thats not bad either )


I have gone to find myself.
If i get back before i return, keep me here.
posted 07-20-04 09:26 PM EDT (US)     47 / 67  
Either Elephants or Pony Riders. I'd go with the Ponies, just because then I'm playing Halflings, which give me access to deadly gold-medal Slingers.
posted 07-21-04 04:56 PM EDT (US)     48 / 67  
In my humble opinion the best onehexcity has a woden wall, 6 crop fields and produces merchandise all the time. I might ecxeptionaly build a fast, retaliating ram or a whip lady for their synergy with storm priests, but everthing else tends to result in a waste of money and a donation of experience.
posted 07-21-04 06:50 PM EDT (US)     49 / 67  
Um.. What does that have to do with the question of what's the best level 1 unit? Most everyone here would likely agree that one hex towns are only useful for producing funds, and to go to a two hex for your level 1 units. I tend to raze or loot them, and try to weaken an enemy's position. They tend to not be guarded except by measly walls.

The Halfling Pony Rider is probably the best lvl 1 unit out there, followed closely by the Azrac Elephant. But that's just my opinion, and I'm not fond of the Azracs; never have been able to do anything with them, except kill them or get them killed. The Spirit Puppet is third, mainly due to being the only lvl 1 with Magic Strike (that I'm aware of). They aren't too good otherwise, not bad either, but nothing I'd invite to dinner. Nymphs (whom I would invite to dinner; repeatedly) and their Dark-Elven cousins both tie for 4th, due to being able to potentially charm enemy heroes away, so long as they're male. Dire Penguin rounds out the top five, due to being a swimmer when no one else except lizards have them normally.

Wolves are real good scouts for me, particularly in hit-and-run jobs provided there's no true resistance close by. They rank 6th. Human Pikeman is usually all I use when playing as humans, I don't bother with regular infantry. That gets the last spot at number 7. The rest just fall together in limbo, since I don't or rarely use them).

Best standard infantry is going to be The Orc Swordsman or Halfling Swordsman. They tie out for me. Elves/Dark Elves I don't like to use that much. While their real purpose is mentioned above, they simply die faster than I can train them whenever I play. It's easier just to use a larger group of archers, stand in formation, and give death from a distance. For infantry, I'll use someone else's units. Dwarves have a good, tough unit that works well for hit and run tactics near mountains. Goblins are like Elves, except worse. Humans are average, I just use Pikemen over Swordsmen instead. Frostlings, I don't even use. Highmen are fast, expensive, and decent. Undead, I don't use. Period. I'll use other races' units instead. Lizards can swim, but that's all that they have. I tend to ally with them, and use small numbers for special purposes, such as when I lack resources to build a navy.


http://grimmgames.freeforums.org/index.php

Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for life. - Karnak
posted 07-24-04 05:52 PM EDT (US)     50 / 67  
If most players agree, that one hex cities are for founds only, we have to look at bigger ones. They can produce funds, l1 units or upgrade. I prefer to save money until i can aford the last because those poyriders, orcswordmen elven archers etc. can't independently take cities and they are free xp as soon as they meat a hero or a l3 or a ballista. The nymph sufers from touch attack rules. If all other l1s are extremly limeted in use, the two i mentioned consequentaly have to be the best.

There is "wrong" and there is "more wrong"; unfortunatelly there is no such thing as "right" even less "more right".

Travelling faster than a speeding bullet is not of much help if you and it are headed straight towards each other.
posted 07-24-04 07:41 PM EDT (US)     51 / 67  
i had won games against experts with nothing but my leader and elephant's. pony riders can't even take an unguarded lvl1 hex city. they need a slow ram or ballista or a hero/leader with wallclimbing.....if that is not pathetic i don't know what, since cities are the most important structures on the map and not something else. elephants will kill you early since walls can't protect you and the game is about speed.

i rather consider it a waste producing anything else with azrac than elephants....i even don't need the excellent yaka avatar, except the rush failed.


Honored Core Balance Team Member of UPatch 1.4
Also known as TirAsleen
Dwiggsvillain

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 07-24-2004 @ 07:54 PM).]

posted 08-15-04 02:34 PM EDT (US)     52 / 67  
"Average Human Swordsman damage against a unit with 2 defence = 1,5 per strike. Average Elf Swordsman damage against a unit with 2 defence = 1,2 per strike. Human is 20% stronger.

Against 5 defence it's 0,9 for Humans and 0,8 for Elves. Human is 12,5% stronger.

Against 6 defence it's 0,7 for Humans and 0,65 for Elves. Human is 8% stronger.

Against 7 defence it's 0,5 for both.

Against 8 defence it's 0,3 for Humans (10% chance to hit) and 0,35 for Elves (20% chance to hit). Elf is 17% stronger.

Against 9 and 10 defence it's 0,3 for Humans and 0,2 for Elves. Human is 50% stronger.

This is asuming that the two have no medals and no enchantments.

As you can see the only reason to build Elf Swordsmen is forestry (they can move together with Elf Archers through forests)."

Dragatus, I'm starting work on a strategy guide for Elves. Might I be able to include this? I'll give you full credit.

posted 08-16-04 03:22 AM EDT (US)     53 / 67  
Sure, feel free to include it.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 08-22-04 11:42 AM EDT (US)     54 / 67  
I do love elephants, and of course orc swordsman 4 dmg . But I think one can do some serious damage with nymhps/ ladies of pain. We'll asume you're only use for swordsman is to keep fire of your archers. Since Nymphs only have 1 hp less and only 1 def less, they'll die a little faster, but the fact that they can convert other melee units and even archers if you're lucky, makes them much more sutable for the job.
posted 08-22-04 03:11 PM EDT (US)     55 / 67  
With TS136 Nymphs have 5 hit points.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 08-22-04 04:30 PM EDT (US)     56 / 67  
ow, ahould really download the patch then, but I can't find it any more at the official website ???
posted 08-22-04 07:15 PM EDT (US)     57 / 67  
well the nymphs and ladies of pain have to get a succesful roll against def and res. don't expect this is easy

e.g. seducing a warlord in aow1 is kinda hard, while in the sequels only res will be checked its kind easy there. always cast enchant weapon on seducers, dominaters and the incarnate for maximized success.

another good idea is to stun the victim, since we have to deal with retailation strikes too. a good classical combo is lady of pain + storm priest.


Honored Core Balance Team Member of UPatch 1.4
Also known as TirAsleen
Dwiggsvillain

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 08-22-2004 @ 07:16 PM).]

posted 08-23-04 05:49 AM EDT (US)     58 / 67  
You can download TS136 here.

If you have a sphere of fire magic you can also cast fury to beef up the nymphs and ladies. It gives them more attack than enchanted weapon and since their defence is already as low as possible it has no negative side effects. Works even better with Warlock's Rules where fury gives you +3 attack.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 08-23-04 09:13 AM EDT (US)     59 / 67  
Plus in Warlock's they get some nice abilites at Gold medal. Nymph gets Physical Protection (!) and Lady of Pain gets Cause Fear.
posted 08-23-04 10:14 AM EDT (US)     60 / 67  
And seduce is more powerful because it has 7 attack (with TS136 it's 4).

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
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