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AoW2 Gameplay Help & Strategies
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Topic Subject: IDEAS for NEW SPELLS
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posted 06-09-01 09:07 AM EDT (US)   
OK guys, I am tired of seeing the same spells over and over in every freaking game - I am bored of seeing the 4 elemnts as different schools of magic etc...

Let's start making up some new spells so we won't have to see anymore silly spells like chain-lighting copied from one license to the other...

Idea 1:
A spell that masks a stack making it look like an enemy stack. If the enemy decides to use it he can... but when they finally get used in a battle those guys will go back to heir real form.

Idea 2:
A spell which makes a city invisible (very useful).

Idea 3:
A magic Wall, which is impossible to destroy and can only be crossed by magic means (magic bolts, teleport etc...)

Idea 4:
A teleport spell tah can be used in battle - The wizard can teleport a unit, and the unit can immediately move (?.. that could be too powerful... shoud be tried). (OK this idea is present also in HoM&M)

Any other ideas?

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-09-2001 @ 07:06 PM).]

Replies:
posted 06-09-01 12:42 PM EDT (US)     1 / 58  
Fireball, an AOE spell that kills in the center and all adjacent quares.(fire)

Allicorn bolt, does damage and lowers defense.(life)

Crushing wave, does damage to all who are between the target and the mage.(water)

Sunscorch, does damage and blinds the target (lowers attack) and against undead stuns and does twice as much damage. (life)

Call Lightning, attacks 1 unit with a lightning bolt each turn at random. (Air)

Storm shield, protects against water and air offensive magics. (water/air)

hmm starting to run out of ideas..... time to get my Icewindale manual.....got it, here goes.....

How could i forget!

Magic missile! :sends one missile per level of the caster (not his spell casting level) to strike at his target inflicting damage. (archane)

Chromatic orb, well it gets better as you increase in levels.....

well thats it for now.



May the road go on FOREVER!
posted 06-09-01 01:36 PM EDT (US)     2 / 58  
That's fine, but what you are saying are merely a "special effect + damage" spells... Every spell you have mentioned is really a slightly diffrent and arguably useful version of the othrs... I mean come up ORIGINAL SPELLS, which could actually improve the strategic-tactical system (the power of making invisible a city, for example, is like that.. and most of all it is NOT taken from any OTHER MANUAL!!! That's MY idea).

I think a good assortment of spell should not include more than 2 or three offensive ones. It should mostly be concentrated on tactics! Sometimes strategic spells become so effective that thir use should be limited, for example the teleport spell allows our most powerful stack to be everywhere... that's too much!

No, a good selection of spells includes many spells that can be useful only in specific circumstances. The power of making invisible a city, for example, could be useful before an enemy has uncovered that specific part of the map, or when the situation is critical an we need to hide away for a few turns. If things go well it would be quite useless hiding a very powerful city.

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-09-2001 @ 01:42 PM).]

posted 06-09-01 02:12 PM EDT (US)     3 / 58  
Other IDEA

Lycantropy:

The affected unit becomes a werewolf - When transformed he\she keeps her staistics but becomes much more resistent to magic (so that it is difficult to dispel). The spell can be dispelled only while the unit has become a werewolf. The werevolf transformation occurs only rarely, but it does especially during battles too (when the adrenaline pumps hard).
An enemy archer who becomes a werevolf would be simply killed off by his wizard; but imagine how annoying it would be to have a hero among your troops who occasionally turns against you during the battle and start killig everything who is alive (undead should not be attacked by werewolf).

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-09-2001 @ 02:19 PM).]

posted 06-09-01 02:58 PM EDT (US)     4 / 58  
How about some defencive spells for the battle field?

Magic shield/wall/sphere/whatever: Raises (for 3 turns?) a protective wall on the battle field which can't be passed by magic. Non-magic units would be able to pass it, and non-magical ranged attacks would also pass it without problems.

Similar spells for temporary protection from fire/water/...

posted 06-09-01 06:59 PM EDT (US)     5 / 58  
MAGIC TRAPS:

Elves (nature spell-casters) would have a sort of magic trap that can be placed in forest hexes only, on the strategic map - the trap could, (for example) teleport away an enemy army. That could be very useful to spread around attacking armies which try to move toward an elfin city, trying to keep a compact, adjacent hex, formation.

Trap placing on the strategic map could become a common practice, traps could be of many sorts...

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-09-2001 @ 07:08 PM).]

posted 06-09-01 07:46 PM EDT (US)     6 / 58  
Black Knight, forgive me if I'm wrong, but I can't help but noticing that most of your suggestions have a couple common themes.

1) You would like to see the game turn much more on chance, luck, or random occurance then on skill. 'Let's have unit advancements be more random', 'let's make things invisible', 'lets put in lots of traps to break up enemy armies', and then you claim this is in the name of "strategy." Strategy does not depend on luck. Strategy depends on taking making the best use of known resources to achieve known goals. In the ultimate strategy game of all time, chess, there are no unknowns save in the mind and skill of your opponent. Your idea of peppering the board with teleport traps in particular strikes me as the equivalent of MTN (Massive Teleport Networks) operating in reverse. You can never be sure when setting out on a campaign how many units will be available to you at the target, and/or where your armies will end up. We might as well be shooting dice.

2) You are endeavoring to furthur push the idea of super heroes and killer stacks versus coordinated planning. 'lets let units become heros', 'lets give heros more powerful combat spells', 'lets break up enemy armies that try to make combined attacks' (again). This caters to a style of play which, while common, I tend to deplore and which we've been told is opposite to the path the developers have taken for AoW2. If the popularity of Warlock's rules (which also tend to play down the role of heroes) is any indication, others tend to feel the same.

I personally feel that AoW is one of the best games of its genre out there because it relies on long range planning and strategic movement rather then chance, or sheer one-to-one numbers in combat. I'd hate to see that change.


ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the Wanderer
The Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum
posted 06-09-01 08:33 PM EDT (US)     7 / 58  
Nope -

1a) let's allow random units advancement?? Maybe I said that but certainly not in those terms... (Are you sure I did?)

1b) Let's allow a player to hide his city through being invisible... That's not chance at all, actually if such a spell were to be applied (and I hope it will) the player will have to carefully choose to use that (expensive) spell if he's really sure he needs it, thus having to make a tactical choice.

1c) Traps - Traps, like ambushes, are part of any military defense plan. Someone who approaches an elfin city will have to do that very carefully; maybe sending a scout in front of him (OOPS!!! You did not think about that one simple elementary thing uh, mister true strategist?)... otherwise he's taking a chance.

2a) Let's allow units to become heroes = YES that is NOT relying on chance, that is relying on skill. Relyimg on chance is waiting for a Hero to pop out of nowhere like it is now.

2b) Let's give heroes more powerful combat skills???? YOU DREAMT I EVER SAID THAT!!! I have been complaining like a madman against chain lightning since the game come out, and (mostly thanks to my complains) they drastically reduced the power of such spell in every patch they ever published (because I kept complaining). NO Let's not give any fighting spell at all, I really don't care for that! Spells should help strategy, otherwise they are just regular wepons with a colorful special effects. (are you sure you carefully read my post? I even objected to Angelo Soleri that he only suggested aggressive spells!)

No, wargames on computer offer an enormous number of possibilities, and I am not going back to play flat cardboard wargames on my PC! Hiding stuff from sight, and creating complex spells is something that must be included in a game like this - If you don't like the examples I made just come up with others, but don't say they have no strategic function, because they do! It's just that you are not using your fantasy to figure out an intelligent way to avoid the "tricks" I am planning! Because I AGREE that they should not be based on luck, and that there should be a way to avoid being fooled!

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-09-2001 @ 08:54 PM).]

posted 06-09-01 09:12 PM EDT (US)     8 / 58  
I think the invisible city spell is a little silly. What would the enemy see? A couple of roads leading to an empty space with some farmland?

Anyway, here are my ideas (I hope they pass the creativity test):

Cloning--doubles the number of units in an army (very powerful)

Worm Attack--causes giant worms to randomly attack units from underground

Light / Dark--gives bonuses and penalties to good / evil units

Beanstalk Wall--creates a giant barrier of vines that impedes the enemy (great for ambushes or traps)

Time travel--allows player to send units back in time to last turn

posted 06-09-01 10:04 PM EDT (US)     9 / 58  
1a) I believe the actual proposal was to allow a random variable to be applied to the unit's stats when they adbvance, and that's what I was refering to, not the concept that they advance at random as it may have sounded. If I've confused you with someone else in making that suggestion I apologize.

1b) It may not be a chance for the caster, but it implies that his opponent is reduced to stumbling onto that hidden ciyy by chance, rather then by careful scouting. This is of course assuming that the city is truely "hidden" (all accesses disguised, etc) and it location was not previously known. Otherwise you're relying on the chance stupidity of your opponent, a tactic which can only be relied on when playing against the AI.

1c) See my answer to 1b. The more you make the game rely on deceit, the less effective (and important) scouting becomes. What is the point of my sending in scouts if they return no useful information?

2a) Goes to the point about building super stacks rather then relying on balancing units. I agree that the randomness with which heros are offered is annoying, I'd much rather be given a selection of who and when I could hire one, but the basic objection is that you seem to be advocating increased reliance on the hero by making more of them available, rahter then less.

2b) See you own initial post, ideas 3 (magic wall) and 4 (teleport). Are those not combat spells? And rather powerful ones I should say. Whether you consider them non-aggressive or not the fact is they put a premium on having a spellcaster in your party (although that may change in AoW2 if wizards operate at a distance). Any party lacking one would be at a serious disadvantage and again this goes to the idea of reducing the game to a one on one contest between super stacks.

I'm sorry if I've offended you by questioning your ideas. I guess this isn't realy a discussion board at all. But since I chose not to descend to name calling or snide remarks, I likely won't be posting anything more.


ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the Wanderer
The Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum
posted 06-09-01 10:05 PM EDT (US)     10 / 58  
OK - why not -

(of course the invisile city would NOT show the fields surrounding the city... but if roads are there maybe it would be useless).

posted 06-09-01 11:31 PM EDT (US)     11 / 58  
I should not presume to speak for other members of the community, but I feel certain that Chowguys polite and elaborative manner of discussion, even such that hes attempted to engage with Black Knight, is far more appreciated than the prolific exhortations of a few. (Maybe, if its not too late, hell read my post and decide to stick around.)

Black Knight, please do everyone a favour by responding with a little more tact and courtesy whenever someone posts a differing viewpoint. Of all the people who kick around here, you ought to have learned by now that encouraging others to join the forum is one of the best ways to show the develpoers that the community is interested and growing. I'd like them to share more of their thoughts about the sequel, and they'll be less likely to do so if they think we're all a bunch of trolls. Lets try to stay friendly when we disagree.

Fingers

[This message has been edited by Fingers (edited 06-10-2001 @ 00:13 AM).]

posted 06-10-01 00:15 AM EDT (US)     12 / 58  
Yessss...

Well, anyway:

Stun-type spell: You know how Terror can affect all enemy units, and they all shout "Oit!"... what about a spell that simply stuns them for a turn.

Battlefield Spell Ward: Simply prevents the casting of combat spells... Maybe even Unit spells, too (no Healing Water).

posted 06-10-01 01:44 AM EDT (US)     13 / 58  
Yes ChowGuy, please stay around, and please voice your opinion whenever you feel like it!

Hmm, I really don't see any reason for either of you two to feel offended. I see no personal attacks, only different views on spells and such. But I also see that some posts has been edited...

Keep the discussion alive!

posted 06-10-01 01:49 AM EDT (US)     14 / 58  
When exactly wasn't I polite? Is defendng my point of view by a careful step by step demonstration of the absurdity criticism that was moved to me a form of unpoliteness?

Bacause that's really what I have done, and if people don't appreciate to be proven wrong than what's the point of discussing in the first place? This post is useful and constructive and attacking it is quite silly.

Anyway ChowGuy reply to my reply is full of "assuming" and "you seem to imply", and I have the feling that all he tries to criticize is what he "thinks" I wanted to mean rather than simply what I said.

"1a) ...If I've confused you with someone else in making that suggestion I apologize."

- OK you we got confused

"1b) ...you're relying on the chance stupidity of your opponent, a tactic which can only be relied on when playing against the AI."

- Not at all, because when on the map there are 70 cities and you can perfectly forget the exact position of one of them (especially playing by email when the turn is not available immeditely)

"1c) See my answer to 1b. The more you make the game rely on deceit, the less effective (and important) scouting becomes. What is the point of my sending in scouts if they return no useful information?"

_ I still don't understand your objection: hex A has got a trap, whenever your scout walks on Hex A he gets teleported to Hex B... Therefore before I enter a forest (possibly full of traps of different kinds) I will have to stop my large army outside the forest and carefully explore the woods, thus giving a couple turns of advantage to the defender, who will have the time to reorganize; otherwise I could just walk straigh in and take a chance... Where exactly the scouts have failed their mission? (And I never sayis I want to "pepper the map" with traps, since magic traps should have a mainteinance cost like other gloal spells, and making many of them would be a waste.)

"2a)...you seem to be advocating increased reliance on the hero by making more of them available, rahter then less."

- You assume too much! When did I say that?? I NEVER DID!!! It's perfectly fine the fact that heroes are very rare! I just ONLY said (in another post) that it would be more realistic having a hero coming out from a unit which has distinguished itself by a series of exceptional acts, rather than having a supehuman popping up on the map, coming out of nowhere and suddenly offering its services.

2b) "See you own initial post, ideas 3 (magic wall) and 4 (teleport). Are those not combat spells? And rather powerful ones I should say. Whether you consider them non-aggressive or not the fact is they put a premium on having a spellcaster in your party (although that may change in AoW2 if wizards operate at a distance). Any party lacking one would be at a serious disadvantage and again this goes to the idea of reducing the game to a one on one contest between super stacks."

- I agree that teleport is powerful (I have written miles of posts to limit its use!!!) and I have expressed some doubts as well ... But then again I don't understand: first you write that anyone who doesn't have a wizard in his stack gets penalized... immediately after you realize that you said something silly because the wizard in AOW2 will be practically everywhere and you contraddict yourself??

- "Super stacks"?? any level 2 spellcaster easily produced in any city will be able to throw magic bolts inside the city, only the almighty archer will finally be a little limited!! Why would that magic wall be so "powerful"?

"I'm sorry if I've offended you by questioning your ideas. I guess this isn't realy a discussion board at all. But since I chose not to descend to name calling or snide remarks, I likely won't be posting anything more."

- I don't know why you want to descend to name calling just say something that make sense, insted than attacking people directly about something thet you "assume" being their vision... When in fact it is not.

A post like this is written just to throw ideas at Triumph, neither of us anyway knows exactly if what we are saying can or cannot be applyed, since we don't know exactly how the game is; therefore attacking each other idea is quite useless, just come out with your own ideas instead than (constantly, Jesus Christ!!) criticize (by assumptions!!!) other people an most of all instead than feeling you have to "descend to name calling"!!!

What is really mysterious, then, about your post, is that from what I see, we don't really disagree in what we want from AOW2!!! We both want heroes being less available and coming from a more realistic source; we both want to strenghten the tactical aspect of the game, we agree that we should work against super stacks (but where did I say otherwise?)...

???

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-10-2001 @ 02:23 AM).]

posted 06-10-01 01:54 AM EDT (US)     15 / 58  
(I took no "names" off by my editing, just typos)

Anyway I say it again:

This post is about BRAINSTORMING ideas which don't necessarily have to be applable, since we don't know
exactly how AOW2 is criticizims is probably a bit pointless. Please everyone feel free to come out with ideas from the top of your head!

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-10-2001 @ 02:28 AM).]

posted 06-10-01 03:02 AM EDT (US)     16 / 58  
Traps: No thank you. It would only slow down gameplay, and increase the number of clicks necessary to move a stack from A to B.

By keeping a cheap unit moving one step ahead of the "real" stack, you would cancel out the danger of the trap. While it could be considered strategic, and somewhat realistic to send scouts ahead of the attacking force, it would double the number of mouse clicks needed to move the units around on the map.

posted 06-10-01 03:46 AM EDT (US)     17 / 58  
My spell suggestions - 1 spell for 1 sphere :

1)Summon Magical Puppet - global spell - low lvl cosmos spell - Summons a magical being that will take shape of a random unit. The puppet does not inherit any ability of it's shape. It cannot attack, and if attacked (and hit) it will vanish. Upkeeping a puppet shouldn't be too expensive (cause it's only for fooling enemy.). It should be a cheap and useful low level spell.

2)Death Trap - combat spell - high lvl death spell - fills 7 hexes with invicible magical traps that can only be seen with skills like true seeing. Any unit stepping the hex will instantly die. Casting this spell can make the enemy flee . Oh, and the trap should remain for 1 full day on the hex.

3)Ring of water - combat spell - medium/high level water spell - The spell will create a ring shaped small river on a selected location that is big enough to cover a party composed of 8 units . Cannot create ring of water on hex with non waterwalking / flying units. This spell can be used both offensively and defensively. Imagine 8 orc warlord attacking a group of low level archers and a wizard. The wizard can cast ring of water, creating a ring shaped river surrounding the warlords, making them trapped and useless! A spell duration can be applied for balancing purpose.

4)Stone curse - combat spell - medium/high lvl earth spell - If succesful, will curse a unit to stone after the caster's turn. To make it different to entangle, a stone cursed unit will die in 1 hit. Makes dispel magic a really useful spell.

5)God's Blessing - combat/global spell - high lvl life spell - fully heals all friendly unit in the battlefield/party. This spell can turn the tide of a battle!

6)Mind burner - combat spell - high lvl fire spell - if inflicted on a hero / wizard, the hero/wizard cannot cast any spell for a set of turns.

7)Force of winds - combat spell - high lvl air spell - a powerful wind will disrupt the battlefield, making movement cost doubles for all units in the battlefield.

posted 06-10-01 07:40 AM EDT (US)     18 / 58  
Nojd, Fingers, et al,

Nice words, but don't worry, I'll still be around. I'm not the kind of git to say "This is my last post in this forum ever" just because I don't agree with someone (or they with me). But I'm also not the type to pursue a pointless debate, paricularly if it seems headed for an "I said / You said contest. Been there, done that, seen too many threads in too many places go to hades that way (wonder if I can say hades?) so when I said I'd likely not be posting anymore it was in reference to this particular subject, and I even hedged on that (good thing, cuz here I am). I'll still stick my nose in elsewhere if I feel I have something worth contributing.

BTW, if you check the times, you'll see that all of BK's edits preceeded my corresponding replies. I would neither imply nor expect him to change anything on my account one way or another, just as I would not on his.

posted 06-10-01 08:03 AM EDT (US)     19 / 58  
Gamemania : very good suggestions I agree - constructive and intelligent!

Nojd : In fact as the game is now it would ALREADY be a good habit to use scouts because with the fog of war you never know what the enemy are doing. Remenber that traps are a defensive weapon and they'd probably be close to the defending city; in placec, that is, where the attacker is not likely to see! I wouldn't say that the game slows down, I'd say the attack slows down.

Chow Guy: You are being correct -I didn't edit antything after you spoke... I still don't understand why you got angry cheer up, and if you have ideas they are welcome. In fact, while "brainstorming" we are just throwing in ideas! Probably nobody is 100% sure of the implications of them - Let's just (both of us) be open minded! If Triumph likes the ideas, they'll work them out - remember only they know AOW2!!

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-10-2001 @ 08:09 AM).]

posted 06-10-01 08:28 AM EDT (US)     20 / 58  
Well, I have a couple of spells in mind which I would like to see. I posted them a long time ago on a couple the old boards, but here's what I remember (stupid me, didn't write them down...).

Anyway, I put in the name of the spell and suggested sphere affiliation, with the specifics to be ironed out as play balance dictates.


Banishment
Cosmos
Combat/Global
Banishes target summoned creature. (I know Dispel already does this, but I would like this to have a much more higher Att value so it would almost always succeed)

Collapse
Earth
Global
Collapses a part of a cavern, filling it with solid earth.

Conceal Area
Earth
Global
All units (and structures?) in the area (7 hexes) are considered concealed, that is, can only be seen from one hex away or by true seeing.

Corruption
Death
City Enchantment
Target city produces only half its normal income.

Despair
Death
City Enchantment
All units in target city have their morale lowered by (insert suitable number).

Earthmeld
Earth
Global
Allows the stack to travel one "level" up or down. That is, a stack could "warp" from the carverns to the surface or depths. If the meld is blocked by solid earth or mountains (for non-mountaineering units), the spell fails. If the units appear on top of water or lava, well, tough luck.

Enchant Armor
Cosmos
Unit Enchantment
Unit gets +1 Def and +1 Res. (There's an Enchant Weapon spell, so why not this? Except that it may be a bit too powerfull)

Fear Aura
Death
Unit Enchantment
Any unit that comes within one hex of target unit (in combat) must resist or be panicked (not sure if thats the correct term, anyway the thing that Cause Fear does).

Gaseous Form
Air
Unit Enchantment
Gives the unit Physical Immunity and Floating, but halves its hits.

Guardian Wind
Air
Unit Enchantment
The unit's defense is inceased by +3 against ranged attacks only, with the exception of catapults and cannon.

Harden Earth
Earth
Global
Transforms "soft" earth into "un-tunnelable" hard stone.

Holy Citadel
Life
City Enchantment
Hexes surrounding target city are treated as holy ground. (does not in any way affect crop fields)

Hurricane
Air
Global
Creates a huge hurricane (the size of the big "Storm" spells) which doubles all movement costs, and totally prohibits flyer movement within its area. Has the side effect of destroying all crops in the area.

Infernal Darkness
Death
Global Enchantment
Darkens the sun. All units' vision is reduced as if they were underground. All crop fields start to slowly die out. Terrain will slowly start to change into wasteland. (Ok, so this is majorly uber, but, well, just for the gradiose effect

Inspiration
Life
City Enchantment
Production times in the city are treated as if the city were one size larger. Note that the city can only produce units already installed in it.

Instant Fortress
Earth
Global
Creates a watchtower. The spell can only be cast on hexes where a builder could normally build one. (must have a big upkeep)

Laziness
Death
City Enchantment
Production times in target city are doubled.

Mana Drain
Death
Global
Drains the target player's mana reserves by (insert suitable amount) points (crystals?).

Mud (have to come up with a better name)
Water
Global
Creates an area (7 hexes) of swamplike terrain which doubles the movement cost of units. (sort of like a global ooze)

Sacrifice
Fire
Combat Spell
One of your units burst with inner fire harming all around it. This destroys the unit in question. (makes any unit into a bomber)

Simulacrum
Cosmos
Global
Creates an illusory double of a unit. The illusion has the units movement modes, but no other special abilities, and all on its statistics are 1. True sight destroys these.

Soften Earth
Earth
Global
Transforms hard rock into earth.

Time Warp
Cosmos (Secret)
Global
Immediately ends your turn and allows you to take an additional one after it. (gotta to have a huge casting cost)

Unholy Citadel
City Enchantment
The hexes surrounding target city are treated as unholy ground. (does not in any way affect crop fields)


Right, can't think of any more. The aura concept could easily be converted to all the magic types, just use the appropriate damage type.

Oh, and one more comment. Could we please have it so that the Unholy/Holy Woods type spells have an upkeep, instead of just the lame 3 turn duration? Pleeeaaase...


K.

posted 06-10-01 11:21 AM EDT (US)     21 / 58  
As good as some of these suggestions are, none of them are completely original. I recognize a lot of them from other games, slightly changed, or not.

If Black Knight wants ideas for a very different style of spellcasting, i've got a few ideas i've been thinking on, but haven't really worked out yet.

I have an idea where, instead of having one wizard cast a spell and his opponent casting one of his spells without any interaction with the other like in AOW, the wizards will try to counter and modify the spells of their opponents.
For this I've come up with some (four) new ideas for spells:

------------
1. Redirect Energy:

Pay the casting cost, you may add extra mana. Target an area on the global map(several hexes big). Then target a second area(1 hex). Only you can 'see' the spell.
Any global spell cast by an opponent with a target within the first target area will resolve as if it was targeted at the second area, unless the opponent added more extra mana while casting the spell, than you did while casting RE.
RE will than dissolve.
Multiple RE can be cast, targetted to the same or to different target areas.

The distance between the two target areas would be limited to a maximum, ofcourse.
-------------

To be more clear: for many spells a player would have the option to add extra mana so he/she can force the spell to do what he/she wants just in case a counter spell becomes active. A bit like wrestling really, only for mages; stronger or smarter mages can really have a great advantage.


--------------
2. Worm spell:

Target a creature on the global map. You may add extra mana. Only you can 'see' the spell.
Any enchantment or instant spell cast by an opponent will have the opposite effect(as much as possible), unless he/she added more extra mana than you did.
If it's an enchantment the control over this spell will revert to you(including mana upkeep). Worm Spell will then dissolve.
Multiple WS can be cast on the same unit.

This spell would be great fun when the enemy would try to heal one of his wounded but worm cursed units, or bless one.
It can also counter life draining(-> healing) spells or change detrimental spells cast on your units, in this form. So maybe there would then have to be two different variants of this WS: one only to be cast on enemy units and one for casting on your own units.
It isn't capable of countering spells like chain lightning or ice storm.
--------------

---------------
3. Weave Control:

Instant. Target any _known_(!) globally active spell cast by an opponent. You must add mana to the initial casting cost.
If the added mana is half as much as the casting cost(including extra mana) of the target spell, then the control of the target spell is reverted to you(including mana upkeep costs), the surplus being used for the protection of the newly gained spell aswell.

This could really come in handy when one of your opponents casts a mastery spell or mana leak when it suits you aswell and you don't want it to go away.
It could also be useful when you somewhere discover the spell I'll describe below: Counter Area Magic.
---------------

-----------
4. Counter Area Magic:

Target area (multiple hexes) on the global map. You must add mana to the initial casting costs.
Until it has been triggered, only you can 'see' the spell.
Will completely cancel the effects of any other spells(combat too) cast by any wizard(including yourself!), unless that spell has been cast using twice as much mana as you have added to COM. COM will remain in place until it fails to counter a spell.

This one would be expensive, but would work on anything, if the player's powerful enough.
I don't want as cheap(and still as effective) counter magic spells as can be found in MoM. Especially the counter spell cast in combat was simply too good, being cheap and possible to cast anywhere.
-----------


All the spells i mentioned could come in more or different variants, where some properties can be different, for example:
1) the nature of the target(unit, area, combat);
2) the sphere(fire, cosmos, etc.) of effectively manipulated spells, or
3) the duration of the spells.

Most of these spells would have considerable mana upkeep costs, too.

All this would make spellcasting in it's self a wonderful game, and not just the casting useful spells without any regard of what the other wizards do.
A bit more like the magic in fantasy novels.


Steel Monkey
posted 06-10-01 12:11 PM EDT (US)     22 / 58  
Hey man i assumed thats what you wanted, don't condenm me becuase you didn't explain what you wanted properly.

You weren't impolite but your words did have a hint of, Go f*** yourself you ignorant son of a B**** in them but your both as bad as each other so who gives a damn. Lets all just be friends ay?


May the road go on FOREVER!
posted 06-10-01 03:50 PM EDT (US)     23 / 58  
I can think off only 1
Kinda like the mana leak but now
Money leak : Cuts the money producing of all the players cities in half

Its a global spell and will make the players rely more on the weaker though cheaper units

Also i would like that the dragon upkeep would be boosted up and minimized how much you may have in a game (5 black dragons = always victory)

My 2 cents


Narf!
Kham award for first post with an ounce of intelligence.
"Enough chit chat. Let's go to battle men."
Wu Su Zheng award "Worst Staff Member Ever"
posted 06-11-01 05:23 PM EDT (US)     24 / 58  
Kaljamaha, great list of spells! I wouldn't worry too muc about lack of originality. I mean, what P&P RPG hasn't borrowed from the original D&D game, or some other game for inspiration. Like the Phoenix, every new idea springs from an old one.

As to the verbose discussion in this thread, I think a lot of the ideas have been great. As to any "attacks," I read all of the posts carefully, and while Black Knight may use a more "aggressive" writing style, I didn't really see any personal attacks at anyone. A little more harsh than need be in places, but at least he used reasoning to express himself rather than saying "F you! Your ideas suck because I say they do." At least explained why he didn't like the other ideas.

Anyway, back to the conversation at hand. Personally, I don't like invisibility spells. The Leper is frightening enough being the only pure invisible unit. I don't know how many times I've moved a few lone units along behind or slightly infront of the main group thinking they were safe as the enemy was nowhere near and I was imply on a caravan across the map to the enemy, when POW! That lone leper shows up and wacks me. I don't think invisible cities would be much fun. I dont want to spend all my time flying eagles around trying to find an invisible city pumping out units that slowly overwhelms me.
Keep up the suggestions!

[This message has been edited by Angel Draco (edited 06-11-2001 @ 05:24 PM).]

posted 06-12-01 06:37 AM EDT (US)     25 / 58  
I don't think invisibility spells will work on anything other then units.
I notice when a city is missing, unless i'm unfamiliar with the map and haven't explored the area before. So, I at least won't be fooled.
The other spell where a stack does maskerade (idea 1)? That won't fool anybody. If there's one thing a player always remembers, it's what and where his own units are. Especially if they're powerful.
Maybe the spell could work if it would make a stack of units appear as independents. Players who then expect to beat the AI silly in TC while outnumbered may then find a nasty suprise.
Making cities + defenders appear as independent might work too.



Steel Monkey
posted 06-12-01 09:40 AM EDT (US)     26 / 58  
EH EH You both deisagree with me ... for completely conflicting reasons!!

Angel Draco says Invisibility is too powerful on cities to be used "I don't want to spend a lot of time searching for them"

Jat, instead, says it's useless because everyone remembers where cities are...

Personally I agree with ...BOTH! Forgive me if I am insisting, but I really think we got a good spell here: one that can be useful only in an exceptional case!

I personally wouldn't like an enemy to have 10 invisible cities because it would be annoying loking fo them... but let's say it costs quite a bit to upkeep it... than it could just be employed for an extraordinary strategical choice. Personally I like variety in games, and a spell like this could easily be disregarded most of the time, to the point that when it's used it takes the enemy by surprise!
They would wonder where the hell is our last city... where in fact it's in front of them. Of course having armies coming in and out of the city would give away its posiition, since they would become visible as soon as they get out. This would make it simply a defensive spell.

Spells like Stone Skin, or Chain Lightning are undenibly good, for mathematical reasons: you are stronger, then you win. Of course everyone wants them and uses them whenever he can... Most spells in games are aimed at hurting the enemy, but personally I don't find that very amusing.

In everithing, instead, that includes trickery there is danger. You really have to make a choiche, risking to waste mana just to fool your enemy: that is strategic!

Don't take me wrong, I like when humans or dwarves pull out knights and cannons, for everyone should be allowed to play according to his style. There's therefore notinhg stratnge if my Undead like trickery!

I like Jat's idea to make our own units look like "armless" indipendents who move unnoticed on the map. Anything that plays with the visual is good, original and especially right for the computer madium: since we have never seen it before in traditional cardboard games! (Which is the main idea, behind all my suggestions to make stuff invisible or being able to hide troops in TC etc...)

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 06-12-2001 @ 09:59 AM).]

posted 06-12-01 03:55 PM EDT (US)     27 / 58  
Angel Draco, I was about to reply to JAT to say the very same thing you said, except that I was going to also point out how "less that original" his ideas were. But, I figured it would no good...

Anyway, I agree with you 100%. There have been so many fantasy games that coming up totally novel ideas for magic is really hard. Totally new spells would most likely be so weird as to be of little use or too obscure to understand. Something like (and even this is not original) "Animate Forest", which would make seven hexes of trees mobile so you could slowly move them around. No wait, that could actually be usefull...

Anyway, I think the novelty of magic comes from figuring out how the spells interact with the system. In this case we should be thinking, "Now, how to make cool magical effects within the frames of the AoW system, its mechanics and such."


K.


Mental health is an extremely serious issue, which, if not detected and treated early on, will drive you mad.
posted 06-13-01 05:17 AM EDT (US)     28 / 58  
Kaljamaha: >>Angel Draco, I was about to reply to JAT to say the very same thing you said, except that I was going to also point out how "less that original" his ideas were. But, I figured it would no good...

So my ideas aren't original, eh? True, I borrowed ideas from different sources including MoM and MTG, but then I never claimed my ideas were original. What I did do, was invent a new magic system, one that I feel would make magic more fun and interesting to use; more fun than the current system.

I did say none of the other ideas were original, but I didn't say and I don't think that this is bad. So what do you mean: it would do no good? Say what you were going to say. Frankly, I would like some comments on my ideas.
I won't let anything stop me from commenting on yours:

Banishment(Cosmos)
"Combat/Global, Banishes target summoned creature".
Fine. But this spell should NOT be a cosmos spell, since every player could easily banish all the hard earned lvl 4 summoned creatures. Nobody would summon them anymore; you made this a global spell so any expensive lvl 4 would be destroyed with little effort(+combat spells are always cheap). Put it in a weak sphere, like the fire sphere and make it a lvl 4 spell.
Or, you could also make this a Combat only spell. Then, players will merely be encouraged NOT to attack heros and leaders with summoned dragons and such. Then this idea could work.

Your spells of deception, Conceal Area (Earth) and Simulacrum (Cosmos) are good. Make the first one a lvl 3 or 4, though.

Enchant Armor (Cosmos) is basicly bless or stoneskin, only available for everyone. I don't think this is good: Stoneskin was what made the earth sphere so worthwhile.

Gaseous Form (Air)
"Unit Enchantment, Gives the unit Physical Immunity and Floating, but halves its hits."
This is a mistake. This is way to powerful. Imagine this one cast on a dragon or any lvl 4 unit think Syron. There's a _very_ good reason why the physical immune creatures in AOW are otherwise pretty weak. Think about it.

Guardian Wind (air) and Fear Aura (death) are just fine unit enchantments. GW could be especially useful, but make it a bit expensive, otherwise flyers can easily become too powerful, eventhough Air may have this special forte.

Holy Citadel / Unholy Citadel (Life/Death) is just fine. A sort of holy/unholy woods around your city. Ok.
Corruption (death) is the opposite of Gold Rush. Ok. This one could be useful against human opponents.
Despair (death) does the same as the Fire spell, but only for the death sphere and weaker, since lowering the morale of a Cheerful or Content populace a bit, won't do anything.
Inspiration / Laziness (Life/Death): Production times in the city are treated as if the city were one size larger / Production times in target city are doubled.
So Inspiration is basicly the opposite of laziness, only weaker. Laziness could be useful though, even against the AI.

Hurricane (air): air mastery does this, and more.

Infernal Darkness (death): I like this one. This is a good replacement for death mastery.

Instant Fortress (Earth). So I get a fortress, but it falls apart if I don't pay the upkeep? It might work, though.

Mana Drain(Death)
"Global,Drains the target player's mana reserves by (insert suitable amount) points (crystals?)."
So how much mana do I have to pay to drain my opponent of mana? A bit like powerleak then. Spells like this one can be useful to a wizard who is much more powerful than his opponent and wants to hinder his enemy spellcasting even more . But, powerleak also threatens summoned creatures and enchantments if the enemy has little mana in reserve. Still, this could be a nice addition.

Mud (water) is a good idea. It can slow the enemy down on the global map.

Sacrifice is good, does it do damage to city walls too?

Time Warp (cosmos) is a good spell, right from MoM, but still very good. Maybe the other players should get some sort of warning in advance, though.

I'm very much opposed to these earth spells:
Collapse, Harden/Soften Earth and Earthmeld.
(They seem to come right out of dungeon keeper and MoM too.)

Collapse wouldn't be so bad in itself, but in combination with Harden Earth this is totally unbalancing and may very well destroy what a mapmaker intends with a certain scenario. Don't you see that any earth caster can completely and irreversibly cut of certain underground sections of the map with these? This way his/her underground assets can be completely safe while he/she can produce and deploy his units anywhere with the use of Soften Earth and Earthmeld. This is wrong. Every player would be forced to choose earth in any scenario with more than one surface.
Collapse would also be a very powerful weapon, too powerful, as it would destroy a whole stack with one aimed click.

Soften earth can also ruin what a mapmaker intended when he made his map. The very reason for the existence of hard rock in AOW is to prevent a player from digging through something he/she should not(and ruin the game).
The same goes for Earthmeld.



Steel Monkey
posted 06-13-01 07:50 AM EDT (US)     29 / 58  
JAT, what I was about to say was just that. It seemed to me that you were brushing aside my ideas just because they were "not original". But since this seems not to be the case, let's drop it, ok?

Now, on topic. I appreciate the comments on my suggestions, however, (not surprisingly) I disagree with some of them.

Banishment:
Well yes, it is supposed to be a combat/global spell. However, even as a global one, it wouldn't be so bad. If the cost is high enough, you won't be spending it on every eagle and boar you see. Also, your heroes can only be in so many places, so the dragons still have considerable impact. However, this will probably change in AoW2, since the wizard can cast spells anywhere from the towers. Besides, Dispel Magic can already take out summoned Dragons/Elementals.

Gaseous Form:
Okay, physical immunity is real good. However, a lot of creatures posses a multitude of different strikes (I play exclusively w/ Warlock's mod), that bypass this protection. Also, with hits halved, the unit can be taken down really fast. I can see a problem with casting it on units that already have a lot of resistances/immunities. Maybe have it also give a vulnerability, now that they're in.

Hurricane:
As I remember (might be wrong), Air Mastery doesn't hinder ground units at all, and only slows flying ones.

But, next we come to another point that came to me (from your opinions on the Earth manipulaion type spells). Map makers should be able to restrict certain spells, or even spheres from the map. Like for example have a theme map where Air magic is rare, only taught by certain masters (residing in towers). In "standard" maps, I see these spells as great additions that provide a lot of strategic options.

Adding to the above, I'd also like to see restrictions on items, so that we can ban certain alignments from using them, or even restrict them to certain heroes. Oh, well, a topic for another thread.

Sorry, gotta go, will be back later.


K.

[Edit: Cleaned up mistakes.]


Mental health is an extremely serious issue, which, if not detected and treated early on, will drive you mad.

[This message has been edited by Kaljamaha (edited 06-13-2001 @ 04:22 PM).]

posted 06-13-01 04:46 PM EDT (US)     30 / 58  
Okay, so here's a spell type I came up with that you might like. I'll call them Rift spells (for lack of a better name).

There would be a Rift for every sphere (Air Rift, Death Rift, etc...). When you cast the spell, you designate how much mana you pour into it. When done, a rift forms on the map, and stays there a number on days, depending on how much mana you spent. During that time, creatures of the appropriate type (summonable by spells of the sphere) emerge from the rift and start wondering around. Also, the vicinity of the rift begins to experience the effect of raw magical energy (or a gate, if you will). Something like:

Air: High winds abundant in the area
Death: The terrain starts to blacken and die
Earth: Mountains and hills start forming
Fire: Random fires start
Life: The terrain starts to envigorate
Water: Terrain starts to become swampier, and bodies of water start encroaching the land

Changes in terrain are permanent. So, the longer the rift is open, the more profound the effect will eventually be.

How's that?


K.


Mental health is an extremely serious issue, which, if not detected and treated early on, will drive you mad.
posted 06-14-01 04:07 AM EDT (US)     31 / 58  
Kaljamaha:
Quote:
Okay, so here's a spell type I came up with that you might like. I'll call them Rift spells (for lack of a better
name).

Weelll, I hope you don't mean you invented them having me in mind. That wouldn't be nescesary. Anyway, let's have a look.

The creatures that emerge will 'start wanderering around', so i'll assume the rift produces independent magical creatures only.
I see particular uses here for the Life and Death rift spells, as the good/evil player can open rifts near enemy territory. The summoned creatures would attack units of opposite alignment and leave your units alone.
It is important whether the units remain after the rift closes or disappear with it. The first would make the rifts more effective frustrating the enemy in his own territory. The latter would serve neutral players better when conquering enemy territory, since the rift creatures might attack them, after they occupy the land.


Some of the terrain altering effects could have different uses. It would be a good thing if the changes are permanent, except for the High Winds and fire effects.


Death: The terrain starts to blacken and die
Handy for undead players seeking to capture the area after the black dragons have done their work.
Could also be used to hurt neutral players who own elvish or halfling cities and units.

Earth: Mountains and hills start forming
This is very good. It could be used to effectively block of an entire area, isolating enemy cities and blocking of attack routes to your own cities.

Fire: Random fires start
This one would only be useful if it turned the place into one great inferno, since single fires aren't very dangerous(unless this is changed in AOW2). But then if it did, it would be very useful indeed, for everyone would suffer damage each turn, forcing the enemy to leave the area or to spend a lot of energy on healing his units.

Life: The terrain starts to envigorate
This would only be useful if the terrain was previously a black wasteland.
Maybe the spell should erode mountains and remove swamps aswell, making it more useful.
Still, this one is far better than the Crusade spell in AOW. A few golden dragons should do the trick, or maybe some astras instead; goldies could prove to powerful.

Water: Terrain starts to become swampier, and bodies of water start encroaching the land
This one could completely halt the enemy ground forces. Handy for players who've got a lot of amphibian units or flyers. It could even be worthwhile to simply open the rift between you and your enemies.

Air: High winds abundant in the area
This would slow down enemy flyers. But since they're flyers and because flyers are fast, they should be able to go around. Unless the area will be very large, flyers won't be hampered much, even if they would simply fly through it.
How about adding some destructive force, instead? Life and Death change the terraintype, Water and Earth change the terrain to slow the enemy, so let Air and Fire do damage.
How about multiple tornados moving randomly near the rift and scattering units unlucky enough to be be caught. The units would suffer serious damage and could reappear anywhere near the rift(on land or water).


I'm already thinking on how players could frustrate an enemy using these spells. It would be nice to turn these spells against the original caster.
Anyway, I like the idea of rifts causing a lot of undirected violence that can also turn against the caster.
Yes, this is a good idea. The rifts will encourage players to think on how to use such a dangerous, uncontroled force to their advantage.


Steel Monkey
posted 06-15-01 03:53 AM EDT (US)     32 / 58  
We thought of rifts as a different state of nodes. Ie a node could change into a rift )and the otherway around) when a certain spell is cast, or perhaps when a node is razed. These rifts whould have a moderate area of influence. Perhaps a great rift spell could grow.

Some good ideas so far, but as you can see its very hard to come up with good ideas that fit in the game. All to often we come up with spell ideas that can't make it in because of balance or AI concerns. Having the AI use a non-standard damage or def spell often takes much longer then creating the spell itself.


--
Lennart Sas
Triumph Studios
posted 06-15-01 04:51 AM EDT (US)     33 / 58  
How about spells that require a certain combination of spheres to be availible? I know the subject has been brought up before but I think its a really nice idea and would love to see it implemented!

For instance:

Dark Waters - Requires 4 death and 2 water spheres.


ThEJeRk

My Hotmailaccount sometimes fills up. Please try this adress if that happens: aow2mail@yahoo.se

posted 06-15-01 07:22 AM EDT (US)     34 / 58  
Spell combination... not a bad idea... and crertainly very easy to implement... What about spells themselve, Jerk, any insight?
posted 06-15-01 09:25 AM EDT (US)     35 / 58  
Thank you Lennart for chiming in. Also, great catch Jerk, I meant to post that also but forgot...

Now, about this AI thing. I understand that having the AI make intelligent use of more obscure and/or complicated spells in really difficult. However, this might sound rather blunt, but does the AI have to be able to use every spell intelligently? I say that it just has to be able to cope with the spells. For me, AoW is mostly a multiplayer experience, so it is sad that new spells, and creative uses for them, have to be axed just because the AI can't handle them. That's just me, though.

Also, Lennart, care to comment on the general workings of magic in AoW2? So that we may properly speculate and come up with new and improved (=never ever going to see daylight) ideas.


K.


Mental health is an extremely serious issue, which, if not detected and treated early on, will drive you mad.

[This message has been edited by Kaljamaha (edited 06-15-2001 @ 09:27 AM).]

posted 06-15-01 09:38 AM EDT (US)     36 / 58  
Excellent idea Jerk! I like the idea of some spells only being available if you have a certain combination of spheres, but I think it should be simplied more, otherwise it may be difficult to remember the specific combination you need. So rather than needing 4 death and 2 water, you just have to Death and Water spheres.

I think this would be an excellent way to force people to choose some of the less popular magic spheres *cough*FIRE*cough* So in order to cast someting like Solar Flare (excellent anti-dragon spell), you need Life and Fire spheres.

posted 06-16-01 05:09 PM EDT (US)     37 / 58  
Here is a few spells I thought of, dont know if anyone else thought of the same but here they are.

Tsunamie (think thats how you spell it): It would create a giant wave 2 by 8 that would pick up and carry any units in its way until it hit land or reached the end of the map in which case it would crash and damage the units physiacally or drown them. If it hit land it would leave a area of water 2 by 8 for 5 turns.

Bouyancy: This would be a low level spell and firly cheap, it would allow a unit to cross water but it would cut that units movement by half.

Transformation: This would transform the target into a servant of the diety of your choice, the unit would gain a lot more skills but would no longer be under your control, so chose your diety wisely .

Inner Fire: Once cast on a unit that unit will explode with the force of a fire storm after a certain number of turns depending on the level of the unit, this spell would cost a lot and hero's will be immune to its effect.


posted 06-17-01 10:36 AM EDT (US)     38 / 58  
I primarily would like to see more fantastic summoning spells in the game. Perhaps one creature per spell rank or level (sphere pick). Obviously the higher rank creatures would have more impressive stats and abilities. I think it would add more to gameplay and balance if the more fantastic creatures were mana dependent instead of gold dependent for their upkeep. This would make the creatures more rare of course, thus gameplay becomes more balanced (eliminating stacks of 8 red dragons for instance).

Preferably sphere aligned for example:
Spirit Puppets, Angels and Archangels, Unicorns, Fairies, Gold Dragons etc. from Life

Ghouls, Skeletons, Wraiths, Death Knights, Demons and Demon Lords, Black Dragons etc. from Death

Sprites, Boars, Cockatrices, Gargoyles, Giant Spiders, Gorgons, Earth Elementals, Great Wurms (a must have) etc. from Earth

Hell Hounds, Chimera, Fire Giants, Efreeti, Fire Elemental, Red Dragons, Hydra, Salamanders, Chaos Spawn (my personal favorite) etc. from Fire

Nagas, Lurkers, Sea Serpents, Great Sharks, Water Elementals, Storm Giants, Mermaids, Ice Drakes etc. from Water

Giant Eagles, Djinni, Air Elementals, Phantom Warriors and Phantom Beasts etc. from Air.

Again I think the more fantastic units in AoW2 should be summoned from Magic Spheres and maintained through mana rather than recruited in Cities and maintained through gold.

-Chaos

posted 06-17-01 11:17 AM EDT (US)     39 / 58  
I can go with you on some of those (Spirit Puppets, Demons, Gargoyles, Golems, Djinn, etc) but the more "natural" creatures (Unicorns, Boars, Hellhounds, even Eagles and Giant Spiders, are not inherently created by magic and should probably not be summoned. Think of the gold as going not to pay them but their breeders and trainers. Others - skeletons, ghouls, Death Knights and other of the risen dead - are the province of the Undead / Necromancers as a faction. While they might be "summoned", so doing is inherent in that race's makeup, not a function of the magic sphere of it's leader, and they should not be available to other races unless Necromancy is a widely practiced art.

Where you chose to fit dragons into this is a good question, but if as has been implied the "true dragon" is of the new Draconian class, then the same reasoning applies there - they are "natural" to that class, though some individuals might also be hired by others for either gold or mana (as they are now).


ChowGuy - The LaChoy Dragon - Servant of the Tiger and disciple of the Wanderer
The Hall of Wonders - HeavenGames Fantasy Role Playing and Creative Writing Forum
posted 06-18-01 08:52 AM EDT (US)     40 / 58  
How about a "summon enemy unit" type spell, so when you have amassed a force and want to really p*ss off your opponent, you can call a random unit to you leader and blat it at will! - obviously you could get yourself into trouble if you summoned something really powerfull (like a level *really high black-hole type number* hero to a level 2 hero and a couple of level 1 units) but you would still be on your own turf... Imagine the look on your opponents face - "hey, where do all my units keep going"
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