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Topic Subject: Map Hexes Tricks
posted 11-01-07 08:12 PM EDT (US)   
Well, I don't know of anyone who knows this but I discovered a way of not only being able to paint terrain from upper layers to the underground, but to paint border terrain. and when I say paint i mean not just only one of the different type of hexes for each terrain type, but all the hexes randomly painted. So I would like to know if anyone else had noticed this and if there's more investigation in this glitch ?
Replies:
posted 11-02-07 00:37 AM EDT (US)     1 / 26  
I'm confused by your saying "randomly painted," but what is it you have found? Could you explain the process?

Is it anything like this: http://aow.heavengames.com/scenariodesign/dixterrain.shtml? Can it be done without the process of using version 1.0?

Painting the border hexagons may be a bad idea; at least it can cause problems in AoW2 -- but it's always worth looking into.

Thanks.
posted 11-02-07 10:39 PM EDT (US)     2 / 26  
Exactly, instead of ussing the version 1.0 of the editor to make the terrain inversions trick there is a way to do it in the 1.36 version with the devEd. I was trying to find an easier way to do this when I thought of copying the tiles in the hexagons section of the upper layers to the dirt section of the underground. so i did this and it worked out perfectly, but then I realized that this only worked with one of the hexes at a time so it ended up looking sort of repetitive. then I thought I would just copy all the different type of tiles for each terrain type, but that would end up being even more complicated. then while testing this I accidentaly painted one of the hexagons out of the border and guess what: the border hexagons became dessert playable hexagos (I was trying out the desert hexagons). I playtested I and it worked just fine. So this was quite a discovery for me.

But then, when exploring the different things you can turn things into (example: mountain, city, hexagon) in the devEd's list I noticed one that said "random hexagon". I selected it and it was just like any other item except for some things, in the menu on the right of the image there was no complex square (and no image by the way) and there was only one option to change, which said terrain type. I opened it up and found a list of the regular (grass desert...)terrain types. But there was more, there were some other interesting options: border, transparent, reserved and coast.

I choose desert, put it the dirt section, saved the release file and opened a map I use for experimenting on the editors tricks, triggers and crashes. Went to the dirt section and saw a black square just like in the devEd. I choose it and the cursor turned into the ussual paint tool. then I choose the size and painted. I actualy managed to paint desert on the underground in the 1.36 version! yay!

Then i went back to the devEd and made another random hexagon item, but instead of the dessert I choose border. I had alredy tried painting border by copying the border tile from the surface hexagons section but I couldn't control it, the border just painted itself wherever I put the cursor on, and besides, it didn't look nice. tiles placed themselves over each other, looking like some where above the others. But now that I had choosen the "random hexagon" option instead of the "hexagon" option the border was painted perfectly. So not only i discovered how to paint upper terrain in underground layers in v 1.36, but i discovered how to paint border tiles in the middle of the map . this would mean real undistructable terrain that is not altered by any means, not even altars.

So in conclusion:

* You can paint terrain on the border tiles if you copy the tiles from the hexagon's section.

* You can paint upper terrain in the underground if you make a "random hexagon" item in one of the underground sections.

* You can paint "border terrain" if you do the same thing as above but with border instead of normal terrain.

* You CANNOT paint normal terrain in the border tiles (even if they are made ussing the above method) with the "random hexagon" items. In order to "delete" these border tiles you have to use the normal "hexagon" items located in the hexagons section.

* I still haven't tried out the other three types of new terrain, but they should work on a similar way.

* Be carefull not to paint border terrain by copying the different border tiles from the hexagons section, I believe this might cause the game to crash or behave in strange ways. Make sure the item has no "preview" image and that when you open the item menu it says "random hexagon".

* All of these tricks seemed to work out fine in the v 1.36 of the game

So that would be it

I would like to see these new options in a new mapmaker adittion (giving all the credit of the discovery to me of course ). It would really make it easier for mapmakers to create more customized maps and not having to go back to the v 1.00 of the editor to create the underground terrains.

*Edit: all of this was made in Age of WondersI, I have no idea how this might work on AoWII, try it at your own risk

[This message has been edited by Lord Daniel13 (edited 11-02-2007 @ 11:56 PM).]

posted 11-03-07 04:15 AM EDT (US)     3 / 26  
Sounds great, I'll have to check it out myself! I'm not really into DevEd, so I can't say for sure if it works well in all cases, but if it does, it would be a good improvement
posted 11-03-07 08:47 AM EDT (US)     4 / 26  
So I tried out the other three types fo terrain and they don't seem to be very usefull. The reserved terrain seems to work pretty much like wasteland, it's just a little darker. The coast terrain is like top level water and the transparent terrain gives you an error message and some times causes the editor to close (not crash).
posted 11-04-07 03:52 AM EDT (US)     5 / 26  
I've checked it out - seems to work, but since only ,,bare" terrain of the chosen type can be placed this way, it's not likely to replace the old methods because mapmakers would rather like to use also trees, stones etc. not just plain grass... I have also tried the method you said you had tried before - copying the surface hexagons to dirt section (in DevEd), but terrain placed this way refuses to work when you switch to unedited release file

I haven’t tried painting border hexagons on the map yet – but if it works then I’d say you’ve discovered a very helpful trick

Proud author of Finbar's Quest, the winning SP scenario of AoW1 Summer 2007 Mapmaking Competition.
Btw, you guys should really listen to Gandalf, he is very wise
- Josh AoW, Triumph Studios game developer
But does he talk to himself because he's the oldest man around, or does he just talk to himself because... ya'know... ?
- Chow Guy, AoW Heaven Cherub
posted 11-04-07 08:28 AM EDT (US)     6 / 26  
I've checked it out - seems to work, but since only ,,bare" terrain of the chosen type can be placed this way, it's not likely to replace the old methods because mapmakers would rather like to use also trees, stones etc. not just plain grass...
Actually there is. Just copy the trees and stones from the surface to the underground. I alredy did this and it seems to work fine with the T136 release file

*Edit this doesn't work with the normal file, I was copying the wrong file so it does seem like it's still going to be done in the v 1.00

*Edit2 I found a way to make it work! the thing is to copy the ID number of the item from the surface to the same item on the underground.

[This message has been edited by Lord Daniel13 (edited 11-04-2007 @ 09:17 AM).]

posted 11-04-07 11:52 AM EDT (US)     7 / 26  
Just copy the trees and stones from the surface to the underground (...) the thing is to copy the ID number of the item from the surface to the same item on the underground.
I've followed your instruction (or at least I hope what I did was following it ), and it still causes an error when switching to unedited original relaese file I guess I must be doing something wrong... could you give more detailed explaination of the process?
posted 11-04-07 02:28 PM EDT (US)     8 / 26  
Ok, look, you go to the devEd. You open the tiles --> surface --> grass part of the editor. now select whatever object you want. Lets take the small mountain. you select it an copy paste it to the tiles --> underground --> objects (it could also be dirt or developer it doesn't matter) and paste it. Now you go back to the surface --> grass and open the small mountain. in the top of the screen you see a space that says "resource ID". It should be 175440218. now you copy that resource ID, go back to the underground and open the mountain you had pasted in objects or whatever. then in the resource ID you put the one you had copied from the surface mountain. So, what are we doing? we are fooling the editor into thinking the mountain from the undergound is the same as the mountain from the surface, which every unmodified game has.

Hope this works for you too
posted 11-05-07 04:30 PM EDT (US)     9 / 26  
Excellent work, a fresh face and a fresh new trick! Shame about the DevEd though...

Maybe Arctic'll be interested.

Token Irish Gamer!
posted 11-07-07 10:07 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26  
So I've got the release file with all the terrain from the upper layers to the underground and the border terrain along with a "border erraser". But I don't know exactly wich files are needed (I did this in the version of the game that comes with the devEd included so may not work with normal versions) so I need someone who knows how to do this and help me put it in the downloads section.
posted 11-10-07 04:00 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26  
Well, it still doesn't work for me... I've followed your hints, but my editor seems to change the ID of the copied resource with no apparent reason when I close the release file, and this way I end up as the fooled one but if it works for you, then I'll be still trying to make it work.

As for the DevEd, it apears to me that it modifies *only* the following files: AoWTCPCK.dpl aowInt.dpl Adcpack.dpl aowDPlay.dpl AOWTools.dpl AoWEPACK.dpl and the AoWEd application... but I'm not enough into it to be 100% sure, so I'd recommend to test whhether it works. Perhaps you could just backup the original release file, open it (=the copy) in DevEd and add all these changes to it?

As for the uploading it to the downloads section: have you already faced some problems with it, or just asking in advance? Because if you had some problems then I'd advise you to contact Swolte, but if you've never tried and think you're going to need some help, I have to tell you that you don't need to worry about it Submitting a file to downloads section is relatively easy, you need only to put all the files you want to upload into a single .zip and then all you do is to fill in a few pieces of description, and choose the file type (SP/MP map or misc. file). It's nothing complicated, and you shouldn't encounter any difficulties with the process.

Proud author of Finbar's Quest, the winning SP scenario of AoW1 Summer 2007 Mapmaking Competition.
Btw, you guys should really listen to Gandalf, he is very wise
- Josh AoW, Triumph Studios game developer
But does he talk to himself because he's the oldest man around, or does he just talk to himself because... ya'know... ?
- Chow Guy, AoW Heaven Cherub
posted 11-11-07 02:56 AM EDT (US)     12 / 26  
I can give you the release files for testing if you want but I fear it won't work if it needs the aowed. But I'm pretty sure maps made with it will work on any other version of the game since I still had the v 1.00 (wich is completely clean of weird release files) I tested opening the maps and playing them and both worked well. As for would the new mapmaker addition be installed correctly I still have my doubts but at least I can enjoy of these new features

I was just asking in advance for uploading but I reffered to having a DOS intallation program or something like that (I know basic DOS programing with simple commands but just that)
posted 11-11-07 08:33 AM EDT (US)     13 / 26  
Sure, I'll gladly test it, you may find my e-mail dress in my profile. I have to warn you I'm rather busy nowadays so I'm afraid I won't be able to spare some time for next week or two.

I'm afraid I can't help you with the DOS installation - I don't know even the basic DOS commands:/
posted 11-27-07 12:25 PM EDT (US)     14 / 26  
Hi Daniel

I have been watching your threads with interest as you seem to have resolved an issue I have been thinking about for some time. I have not had time to play with the editor and check out your new "Mod" but I shall investigate when I have time.

If I understand you correctly the new release file allows underground terrain to be placed on the surface and vice versa. You allude to new terrain types as well which I am curios about. Are these the terrain tiles used in editting the combat maps? Also you seem to suggest that the border area is now convertable to mapping area. And all of these changes are compatable with someone who plays the map with the regular TSR1.36 rulest. In other words I will not need your release file to play the maps. Is my understanding correct?
posted 11-30-07 01:15 AM EDT (US)     15 / 26  
Yes, you understand most of it correctly. What I have discovered is basically to do terrain inversion tricks in the 1.36 version of the game, which are fully compatible with unaltered versions of the game, so yes, you will not need my release file in order to play the maps. I see that I couldn’t find I way to explain myself in my first post so here’s a more technical description.

First of all, there is nothing for tactical combat maps. There are no new terrain types, when I say terrain I am talking about trees, mountains and other the stuff. The only new feature is border terrain.

While browsing the different object types the game consisted of in the DevEd I found a Random Hexagon (*paint*) item. What this does is to take all hexagons found (in both underground and surface and not only in the hexagons windows) of the selected type and place them randomly in a selected area. So this is the same as the paint tools for the different terrain types, and since I am not actually creating a new hexagon (just something that “places them”) there are no compatibility issues with TS136.

So after that I had to think a way to be able to put objects from the surface in the underground since there’s no point for it without the actual terrain. So I thought of copy/pasting the different terrains, but then I remembered that the game only knows that it’s the terrain with the ID# *whatever*, not the “trees that look funny” or the “slightly small mountain”. So this brought a new compatibility problem, but also the solution. What I did is that I copy pasted the ID# from a terrain in the surface (i.e. a tree) to the same object I had previously pasted in the underground. This meant that the original game would recognize the object, as it had one with the same ID# built in it. I also discovered that there cannot be two items with the same ID# in the same level (underground or surface), but there can be one ID# 100 item in the underground and another ID# 100 item in the surface, for example.

So basically you will find that all the terrain from the surface was copied to the underground.

Now, the border terrain. This is actually no new terrain, it’s just a way to put and delete border hexagons. In order to place the border I just used the Random Hexagon item and selected border (using the actual hexagon in the hexagons section had unstable results). But deleting it was more of a trouble. In order to delete border I had to put an actual hexagon (not the random hexagon tool, a real hexagon) in the “viewable” sections of the editor. When you select this hexagon its like if you had selected the normal paint tools, but this hexagon has different “rules”. If you use it in the border it will overwrite the border with normal “editable” terrain. Also, on normal terrain it has the same effect of the copy paste trick which changes the hexagon type but not the actual terrain over it. Note that the hexagons used to delete border must also be TS136 compatible, as they are selected with the random hexagon tools. Also terrain that was before border is not seen in the minimap, so be careful with where you make very important places.

So that’s it, sorry if the post is too long (way too long) but that was the only way I found to express myself.
posted 11-30-07 02:00 PM EDT (US)     16 / 26  
Tried it out already - everything works fine, and it indeed appears to me it will be useful for designing scenarios with significant amount of terrain inversion. Thanks for giving us mapmakers a helpful tool Daniel What especially makes me curious is the option to replace border areas with normal terrain (placing border hexagons outside the usual border area doesn't seem that great - sure totally undestructible terrain can be very useful but it's not needed all the time, and the border hexagons look rather odd when placed inside the map - at last for my taste) - I've already played with it a bit that is, I've created a 3-hex grass corridor in the border area, planted trees there, blasted it with ice, death and poison storms from altars, then moved a unit here, disbanded it and attacked with another (everything worked OK). Did you do any extensive testing? like checking how will cities work on the new area, or if removing too much border hexagons won't hurt the gameplay to some extent? Because I think I'll try and use this option in the map I'm currently working on.

To Arctic:
Hi mate - mostly great to see you on the forums. Can I seize the opportunity and ask about construction of your campaign that you've invited me (and Scout) to participate in? I'm sorry if I'm getting persistent, but I'd really love to take part in designing it and I'm dying for some details on what I could do...

Proud author of Finbar's Quest, the winning SP scenario of AoW1 Summer 2007 Mapmaking Competition.
Btw, you guys should really listen to Gandalf, he is very wise
- Josh AoW, Triumph Studios game developer
But does he talk to himself because he's the oldest man around, or does he just talk to himself because... ya'know... ?
- Chow Guy, AoW Heaven Cherub
posted 12-01-07 11:05 PM EDT (US)     17 / 26  
Thanks Daniel for the explanation.

What you have created is very similiar to what I use for my maps privately. With one big exception. The idea to use and abuse the border tiles is awesome.

My private release file which I have used for most of my map making sound very similiar. I also have added all of the current 1.36 add ons like the 'map abilities' add on and dev edit into the package to give my map making the complete freedom to add in anything which is compatible with 1.36.

I shall look forward to the first maps which make use of your great addition.

To Gandalf. I have not forgotten you but I have run into several obstacles on the home front. My plan is to send to you a complete package of finished maps and partially finished maps with a broad outline. I have at least 50 maps in various stages of completion with most requiring only tweaks. But the maps are for three separate campaigns, and it is my wish to rejig everything to one broad campaign.

Until I have the outline finished I want to hold things in check. The last mega campaign got grounded because of storyline squabbles so I need to nail down the broad strokes before we start seriously. There will be lots of room for you to add maps and to edit existing maps. But the overall storyline will be my domain.

You can look forward to something arriving in your in box in January after the Christmas rush.
posted 12-07-07 12:05 PM EDT (US)     18 / 26  
All right, thanks for informing me Arctic - I was asking out of simple curiosity, but it sounds you have already planned it pretty well, and that's very promising. I'll be looking forward to the day the design stage begins
posted 12-21-07 10:55 PM EDT (US)     19 / 26  
Wanted to pass by a thankful and appreciative thanks Daniel for this gem you've discovered. This kind of discovery this far after AoW was released means perhaps more interest and more people will be interested in joining this community and making maps. I cannot wait to start downloading maps with this new trick once you grand map-makers start using it.

I request perhaps this awesome discovery somehow be stickied, or round up together and placed somewhere Map-makers new or old to AoWH will be able to learn and use.

It's these kind of stuff that will continue to make AoWH a swell and thriving place to be in. ^_^

Cheers Daniel!
posted 01-01-09 07:22 PM EDT (US)     20 / 26  
Hmm, that is interesting, I must look into it.

I found another method of intermingling surface and underground terrain and land.
Place a leader or "Go-to"-able object on the level you want to mix up, then click to
go to it from the other level.

Example:

  • Goal: Lava above.
  • Method: From underground, click to go to
    an item on the surface, your current Tile Roster
    won't change.


Oh, does this website have a special SMTP or adress to help set
up PBEM games? I can't find a working one, and I'z new here.
posted 01-03-09 04:21 AM EDT (US)     21 / 26  
I've tried and it didn't work. Since in another thread you said you have 1.00 version, I suppose it works only with this and not 1.36 which everyone uses
posted 01-03-09 05:33 AM EDT (US)     22 / 26  
Alphonze, most of us send turns manually to each other.
I use the smtp address of my provider's email, but I don't think everyone has that. ;-)
posted 01-03-09 11:21 AM EDT (US)     23 / 26  
I just found that what Alphonze 56 just said works on v1.36 (this is a variation) if you have just the surface (no underground) with grass, for example, highlighted and you choose "Add Map Level" in the Options menu, you will still have grass when you use the cursor, but the tile set will still change.

For example:
You have a level with only the surface. You want an underground, but with steppe in it. Select the Steppe tile on the tile set and then choose "Add Map Level" in the Options menu. You can then paint Steppe underground until you change the tile.

Jim Brannen
Email: branneji@yahoo.ca
Skype: jim_brannen
Timezone: -5 GMT (New York Time)

[This message has been edited by Froster (edited 01-03-2009 @ 11:22 AM).]

posted 01-03-09 11:49 PM EDT (US)     24 / 26  
*Sagat Laugh* HO HO HO HAHA!
I AM TOO EARLY-VERSIONED!

[This message has been edited by Alphonze 56 (edited 01-04-2009 @ 10:15 AM).]

posted 01-04-09 04:49 AM EDT (US)     25 / 26  
I just found that what Alphonze 56 just said works on v1.36 (this is a variation) if you have just the surface (no underground) with grass, for example, highlighted and you choose "Add Map Level" in the Options menu, you will still have grass when you use the cursor, but the tile set will still change.
Good discovery Froster I've checked this, and not only it works, but it also allows you to do the same with objects such mountains or trees, and a reverse method (go to underground, choose something - e.g. a blank lava tile or a pile of dirt stones, then use Remove map level) allows using underground tiles on surface. Of course, while designing a map it's rather impractical to add and remove a map level over and over, so Lord Daniel's Mapmaker Addition remains your chosen tool, but it's interesting glitch to discover!

Proud author of Finbar's Quest, the winning SP scenario of AoW1 Summer 2007 Mapmaking Competition.
Btw, you guys should really listen to Gandalf, he is very wise
- Josh AoW, Triumph Studios game developer
But does he talk to himself because he's the oldest man around, or does he just talk to himself because... ya'know... ?
- Chow Guy, AoW Heaven Cherub
posted 01-11-09 08:48 PM EDT (US)     26 / 26  
Oh, I found a glitch to the 'Lava on Surface' trick, which is one of my favorites: Should a unit with any of the path abilities walk near a patch of lava, it gets converted like solid land.
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