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Topic Subject: A Huge Campaign!
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posted 01-17-05 10:36 PM EDT (US)   
Cool, Cool Cool idea. Right HERE! That's right! Why didn't we think of it before? (At least, I hope no one thought of it before.)

Hey guys, I was thinking, wouldn't it would be cool if some of the good map makers and writers got together and made a huge campaign!

You know? Because we've all been playing for a while, and we've played through the main campaign, but that's gotten old. So maybe it would spark some of the player's interest to have a really long campaign to play again, made by a team of the best map designers.

Everyone give your thoughts on this; but especially the veteren map designers.

---------------------------------------------------------

Okay Guys, ideas are now under way. Arctic and I have some pretty good ones, but we could surely use some help.

We need some story ideas, and we would also like Beren to help us out as lead story writer.

We also need maps. We'll be designing some campaign specific maps and could use people to help us design those. But we also need people who would be willing to let use their already created maps for the campaign. Like any other borrowed maps, they will be changed to suit our needs but you will be given proper credit.

[This message has been edited by Gantaliano Hoff (edited 01-22-2005 @ 05:03 PM).]

Replies:
posted 01-18-05 02:37 AM EDT (US)     1 / 299  
Haha! I am working on a camaign at the moment. I also suggest you try "Orcs of the Southron Kingdom" by Arctic Wolf, in the Single Player Downloads sections.

The idea of my campaign is as follows: It is 10 years after the Battle of Wonders (ie. the end of the TS136 campaign). You are the first Human to enter the ranks of the Keepers. The campaign starts with you completing your final "test", just as you do in the tutorial. During the course of the campaign the Azracs and Lizardmen are wiped out, to account for their no longer being around in AoW2.

However, I want to make this campaign 2 sided; the tale of the second side cannot be told without revealing too much information.

Like the Orcs campaign, I plan to have a new Release file (or whatever is needed to get new text) and also have some new songs.


===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================
posted 01-18-05 06:26 PM EDT (US)     2 / 299  
No wait.

Yeah that's cool. But how long is your campaign? I know that Arctic makes three or four level campaigns, but what about one that's like 8 or 9 levels long? You know a BIG campaign, not just one made by a lone designer, I mean, I'm doing that right now. But I'm thinking of one that AoW Heaven has never seen before; a campaign with all original maps and a new story line no one's heard of.

I mean, I would want to help make it, it would be Big! (I guess I've said "big" enough)

posted 01-19-05 04:10 AM EDT (US)     3 / 299  
I don't think anyone's done a 2-sided campaign before. Orcs of the Southron Kingdom has 3 initial branches (you have to customize your leader though), but apart from the original, i haven't heard of any that are 2-sided.

===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================
posted 01-19-05 11:30 AM EDT (US)     4 / 299  
Go for it!Bravo! First we half to see how many of the good mapmakers will want to be involved.It may be hard though with varying tastes.

People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me
Into darkness, into night, amongst the shadows we shall fight!
-/X\( ++ ) /X\-L.E.D.- Hand of Malice-/X\( ++ ) /X\-
posted 01-19-05 12:33 PM EDT (US)     5 / 299  
How Huge is Huge??


The Orc Campaign of which Alphax Speaks is HUGE!!!

Try 62 maps in Three branches.

Here is the original write up text:


The First Branch is the Story of Gom, an ambitious Orc out to profit from the strange goings on in the North. Gom will find Sciscero's Ring and be invited to lead the Lizards to "The Lost City of Marshes", or he will follow orders and try to follow the path to becoming "THE ORCRIST".

The Second Branch is the story of Brak, an Orc who would rather make love to his wench-mates than go to war, (Who wouldn't). Will Brak be seduced by the "strange" but enticing Dark Elf wenches, or will he overcome his lust and serve Queen Sarag and the Orcs of the Southron Kingdom?

The final branch is the story of Queen Sarag. Queen Sarag must overcome the whispers she hears in her sleep and the dreams which follow. She will be offered the Gift of Immortailty, should she accept? You decide.

In all there is 62 maps in this download, with at least 18 different paths to the end map. If you choose the right path you shall become the ORCRIST, but beware, the journals are purposely misleading.

So you can see this may be just the campaign you are hoping for.


I should note that between release 2.2 and release 3.0 I made a lot of changes to make the campaign easier (based upon feedback). However a bug in the game editor removed all items and heroes from my prebuilt libraries in version 3.0. I uploaded patches which hopefully fixed the problem. But I do feel that my original earlier version of the campaign (version 2.2) is actually superior to the later easier version 3.0. Version 2.2 does not require patches.

[This message has been edited by Arctic Wolf (edited 01-19-2005 @ 04:21 PM).]

posted 01-19-05 12:45 PM EDT (US)     6 / 299  
However if you want some maps for your HUGE campaign I would happily donate some. I have about thirty maps in various stages of completion and two more campaigns almost ready to go. (I need only a few spare hours to make a map but I need to find an entire day off to wrap up the lose ends of my Goblin Campain or my Halfling Campaign)

I would also suggest that if you find a map in the Uploads section which would work for your campaign that you contact its creator. Most of the persons who submit maps would be flattered to have their work inserted into a campaign. You just have to be meticulous about assigning credit. (In my Orc Campaign 20 of the 62 maps were from other mapmakers) I will admit that at first most were skeptical of my efforts as I was unknown at the time, but as I submitted work (almost) everyone came around.

posted 01-19-05 02:10 PM EDT (US)     7 / 299  
A huge campaign needs a huge preface. What is the idea?

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 01-21-05 02:30 AM EDT (US)     8 / 299  
According to various sources (none of which are official) AoW2 is set about 1000 years after AoW. I'd like to try and fill some of that time.

We know that Humans took over after the Battle of Wonders. Who knows what they did during that time. Perhaps we will get a chance to find out.

Edit: What I really need are hero and city names. Lots of them. Another thing: I'd like to have (somewhere) a map which is used, and then a few scenarios later, the story returns to the same terrain, but it's a different scenario.


===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================

[This message has been edited by Alphax (edited 01-21-2005 @ 02:32 AM).]

posted 01-21-05 02:48 PM EDT (US)     9 / 299  
I would like to explore an alternate history thread, starting perhaps at the every end of the Second Valley War (in which Julia defeats all the baddies). However, this would start during the War, possibly being from Julia's prospective.

Of course, with different characters, we can explore different prospectives, much the way Arctic Wolf does in his campaign.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
posted 01-21-05 10:18 PM EDT (US)     10 / 299  
I've lately been inspired by the title of the book by Karl Marks, "The Wealth of Nations" I thought that it would be a great idea for a single scenerio but when I applied it to the idea of a campaign I decided that it would lend itslef to many more possinilities. Sometimes, just a title can be a big ispiring factor for ideas. So, does that spark any ideas? I'll organize my thoughts and get back to you on it.

Also, I do not have time to make the whole thing myself. This is idea for a collaboration of map designers, myself included, that could result in a pretty good campaign, but with school, and stuff going on right now, I barely have enough time to work on the three levels for my small campaign. But I'll definately be here to help.

So this is just a discussion forum, to come up with some ideas for it, with many people working, and submitting ideas, this could proove to be a very creative campaign.

Remember: "The Wealth of Nations"
posted 01-21-05 10:48 PM EDT (US)     11 / 299  
The current version of the Campaign builder allows for three decisions at each node point which gives me the idea that we should shoot for a three sided rather than a two sided Camapign.

We could set it up with three separate alignment choices at the beginning Good/Bad/Nuetral.

One of the few flaws in the original campaign was that nuetrality was basically left out of the mix as a biginning motivation or possible endpoint.

We could start with our Huge premise and investigate it playing from three possible positions.

The positions coulld overlap later in the campaign with the Nuetral hero forced to choose between Good and evil in the second phase of the campaign and then given a chance to reevaluate in the third. Just as the Good hero could choose between an uneasy partnership with a nuetral race which has the potential to go horribly wrong.

So path for each hero would be


Nuetral - Good - Good
Nuetral - Good - Nuetral
Nuetral - Evil - Evil
Nuetral - Evil - Nuetral

Good - Good - Nuetral
Good - Good - Good
Good - Nuetral - Good
Good - Nuetral - Evil

Evil - Evil - Evil
Evil - Evil - Nuetral
Evil - Nuetral - Good
Evil - Nuetral - Evil

We could get more complicated but this will tax everyone enough.

If we assume 3 maps per alignment choice this gives us 108 maps not including the end map. But Maps will overlap.

If we have no overlap between the three heores the automatic overlap based upon our structure reduces the maps needed to 54.

If we assume overlap of maps between heroes we can further reduce this to 27 maps. Quite managable.

I'll organize the map requirements and build a campaign template in AOWge if this is acceptable.

posted 01-21-05 11:00 PM EDT (US)     12 / 299  
By the Way "The Wealth of Nations" idea is a good one. I can sense story possibilities arising from each Heores quest for wealth. Capitolism vs Communism vs Facism.


Nuetral Hero is Capitolist
Good Hero is Communist
Evil Hero is Facist.

I think those economic models serve each alignment well.

I don't think the campaign allows you to choose to be a Human Frostling Undead or Highmen at the beginnig so our hero choices are limited to:

Good - Dwarf, Halfling, Elf
Nuetral - Lizard or Azrac
Evil - Goblin Orc or Dark Elf

So story won't be able to start out as Human, but that race can be played later in the campaign.

posted 01-21-05 11:53 PM EDT (US)     13 / 299  
All right! I'm liking this!

That's an awsome idea for the Capitolist, Communist, Fascist idea, but how are we going to make it seem as that was the case? In the campaign, well I suppose that's a personality issue that we can work out later.

Also, I've always kind of seen the Frostlings as one's who would hoard treasure, they-as well as the Humans-could be the center of one of the overlap maps, where the all the races face off.

The Highmen and the Undead could play a propoganda role. The Undead attempting to sway you towards evil and the Highmen asking you to take the Good Road.

Next, I don't think that this should take place in any relation to the actual game story. Other players were suggesting that but I'm not sure It would work.

Another question, Arctic (or anybody else who's interested). How many maps to you already have that could be suited for this campaign?


My Current List of AoW Accomplishments:
Multi-Player Map #301: Lake of Power
Multi-Player Map #302: Quick War!
Single Player Map # 325: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (single player) Multiplayer Map # 321: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (multi player)
posted 01-22-05 02:12 PM EDT (US)     14 / 299  
Having slept on this I can see that we can bring the number of maps needed down even further.

We could actually go with only nine maps each played from a separate point of view. Now this is probably a little too much retraction but suffice it to say we need between 9 and 27 maps.


Giving the other matters a little thought I think it might be a decent idea to have the Three Sided story end at the point of view of races not allowed by the campaign editor to be chosen as initial Heroes.

This Would mean that the 'Good' Story would End with the hero serving the Highmen. The Evil Story would end with undeath, and the nuetral storyend as Frostling or Human. (I vote Human). Like the original story where the keeper hero originally serves Julia, in this story the good hero would serve a Highmen Sage originally (possibly Gabriel). His/her decisions would ultimately lead to a scenaio where he could serve any of the 'bosses' by the end map.

We can actually allow the hero we play to have a fourth race switch at this point such that nine spheres instead of seven are opened for the last map.


As for maps, if you happened to follow my post in the Valley of Wonders Community Forum, you will know I recently (yesterday) was forced to reformat my Hard drive containing most of my 'practice maps'. I lost most of my work. (Fortunately my two campaigns under construction were saved for the most part.)

I think we should just start looking at uploaded maps in the editor for interesting small to medium sized maps until we have selected about 15 of them. Ask the original authors if they mind if we modify them and start from there.

Map authors like Dan Peterson, Dan Donnard, Eriksson, have in the past demonstrated great generosity. We also each have are own uploaded maps and projects on the go. I think we could find many suitable maps quickly.


The Bigger issue we have is finding volunteers to help pull it all together. We need a lead writer (Beren would be excellent). We need a lead Map editor. (I would be decent at this) We need several map designers, and and someone to keep the whole project on track. (That would be you Gantaliano)

So I suggest we for map design volumteers and see if Beren want to be the lead writer.


posted 01-22-05 04:56 PM EDT (US)     15 / 299  
All righty.

I'll send in an entry for Draco to put on the Current news page.

I'll also begin snooping around the Downloads and looking for maps we can use.

Beren, if you're out there can you help us out too?

(I'll post some ideas for the campaign in a little while)


My Current List of AoW Accomplishments:
Multi-Player Map #301: Lake of Power
Multi-Player Map #302: Quick War!
Single Player Map # 325: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (single player) Multiplayer Map # 321: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (multi player)

[This message has been edited by Gantaliano Hoff (edited 01-22-2005 @ 05:05 PM).]

posted 01-22-05 05:20 PM EDT (US)     16 / 299  
News posted. Good luck guys!
posted 01-22-05 07:26 PM EDT (US)     17 / 299  
Good luck with the project. Maybe I could contribute in some areas. Specifically the writing aspect. Just let me know. Btw neutral is spelled neutral.
posted 01-23-05 04:38 AM EDT (US)     18 / 299  
Wait a minute! What about the humans? Aren't the humans involved? I wanted to have a two-sided campaign - Human who joins the Keepers and a Human who joins the, er, evil races... remember who got lots of Humans on their side between 1102 and 1146?

Then again, if we start with 3 initial choices per campaign, we could have a 6-sided campaign! And 11 sphere choices by the end!

Also, about modifying the campaign joining text: the text after you select a side is stored in Release/Text.pfs - so we can use DevEd to change this. But what I would like to know is where is the text before you join stored - the text that outlines the objectives of the Keepers (accept humans, rebuild valley) and the Cult (kill humans, ressurect Inioch) stored?

Edit: And where can we get a list of City and Hero names?


===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================

[This message has been edited by Alphax (edited 01-23-2005 @ 04:42 AM).]

posted 01-23-05 03:41 PM EDT (US)     19 / 299  
Wow!! I'm excited about a new campaign. Sorry I can't help much on the map building, I just haven't done very much of that. I would be more than happy to playtest any maps and give them a go for you (I can play blind or have the editor at my disposal, either way).

Good Luck!

posted 01-23-05 04:33 PM EDT (US)     20 / 299  
I think this is a great idea and I will support it as much as I can. Unfortunately I am not very productive these days, since I have two small children requiring a lot of my attention. If you have any use of my old maps, please feel free to use them, and if you give me some time I might just be able to squeeze in some new material as well.

Good luck to you!


Itīs nice to be important, but itīs more important to be nice.
posted 01-23-05 09:52 PM EDT (US)     21 / 299  
To answer Alphax's Question:

What about the humans? Aren't the humans involved? I wanted to have a two-sided campaign - Human who joins the Keepers and a Human who joins the, er, evil races... remember who got lots of Humans on their side between 1102 and 1146?

The Humans will be involved! But later. You won't be able to start out as them but-depending on choices you make throughout- you may be able to end as them.

Arctic and I got an awsome idea for the campaign, The Working title right now is "The Wealth of Nations" and Arctic has put up some pretty good ideas for that.
-------------------------------------------------
Here is an earlier post by Arctic Wolf which may shed some light on the issue:

By the Way "The Wealth of Nations" idea is a good one. I can sense story possibilities arising from each Heores quest for wealth. Capitolism vs Communism vs Facism.

Nuetral Hero is Capitolist
Good Hero is Communist
Evil Hero is Facist.

I think those economic models serve each alignment well.

I don't think the campaign allows you to choose to be a Human Frostling Undead or Highmen at the beginnig so our hero choices are limited to:

Good - Dwarf, Halfling, Elf
Nuetral - Lizard or Azrac
Evil - Goblin Orc or Dark Elf

So story won't be able to start out as Human, but that race can be played later in the campaign.
-------------------------------------------------

We don't want to spend a lot of time on developing a vision; becuase we've already got one. The title "The Wealth of Nations" is the title to the book by the Karl Marks, the father of Communisim.

Just a possible tip to future map makers, I find that my maps turn out much better when I develop the map based on the storyline or even the Title. Maps that are made and then have a storyline pasted on to it don't tend to turn out as good in my opinion. So, for this campaign we're letting our motivation be the title, and we're not even sure that this will have anything to do with the original Game campaign.

However, this does not put a damper on our desire for help and opinions. We need map makers, and we need story ideas, we've given for parameters for our campaign ideas and we want you guys to help with the rest.

Thanks a lot for your support.

P.S. To Dan Petersson, thanks for your offer on your old maps, we'll definately be checking those out.


My Current List of AoW Accomplishments:
Multi-Player Map #301: Lake of Power
Multi-Player Map #302: Quick War!
Single Player Map # 325: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (single player) Multiplayer Map # 321: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (multi player)
posted 01-23-05 10:11 PM EDT (US)     22 / 299  
I was away this weekend; that's why I haven't been posting.

I think that the economic system idea is not that great an idea, to be perfectly honest, and my reasons are as follows I think that it is (1) too modern, and (2) somewhat superfluous.

To elaborate on point (1), Age of Wonders is about races, populations, and a dynastic struggle hinging on ancient knowledge of a magical sort, and has very little to do with economics. Granted, the Halfling campaign of the original AoW has mentions of trade and mercantilism as something that the Halflings are interested in, and in AoW2, the Halfling Wizard Marinus is a merchant Wizard, and Halflings are a merchant race as well as a farmer race. Still, the Halflings aren't the point: the point is that the Halflings allowed for the survival of the Elves, and their fertile lands are greedily desired by both Frostlings and Lizardmen (both of which, the Lizardmen especially, don't strike me as being very economically sophistocated - they're more raiders than anything else).

As for point (2), the good races (especially the Elves) are already generally communal, the neutral races (especially Humans) are already opportunistic and thus capitalistic, and the evil races (esp. Dark Elves) are already what we might call facist. A conflict of economic systems is just a conflict of races like what we already have. In addition, all of the races, because of the way that Leaders and their spheres work, are by defnition governed by theocracies. If there is a conflict in Age of Wonders that is more than just the survival of the different races, then that conflict is about religion, not economics! The Dark Elves, who are more facist, have a more oppressive, fanatical religion led by their wizard-king Meandor. The Azracs worship their God, Yaka. Humans were exiled from their Garden, but the divine power behind that Garden drives the High Men under their Archangel, Gabriel, to aid the Humans in becoming the dominant race. The Elves are fighting to restore their age of bliss under their high priestess, who, like her half-brother, is the daugher of the wizard-king who presided over their age of plenty and their paradise on earth. I just don't see the relevance of different economic systems to this whole situation. It's not about economics. It's about races, and it's about religion.

--

Now, not to derail your entire idea, here's something that I think we can work with: greed through irreligiousness. The Bible calls it Mammon.

So, let us consider different sets of religions - the Keepers, possibly a remnant of the Cult, if we want to do both sides of religion, and let us have Mammon (capitalism) as their adversary. Our Mammon-following faction could be subdivided into two warring factions: the one that wants to build industry and make money (Humans), and one that wants to just loot what other people have (Lizardmen).

It seems to me that we could split this into several campaign threads.

--

Now, if we are going with this idea, then we have to overcome several challenges. These are:

1. Magic. How do we keep magic (magic being religious) out of the hands of the Mammon-followers? Or should we?

2. Non-racial affiliations. Followers of Mammon don't care what race you are - only how much money you've got/can produce.

3. The entire place of the Undead (or if we want to include them at all). One clear thing about the Undead in AoW is that they are not easily controllable, and they want to kill everything. They are aided by demons. It's their religion, if you will - the destruction of all life.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign

[This message has been edited by Beren V (edited 01-23-2005 @ 10:12 PM).]

posted 01-23-05 10:27 PM EDT (US)     23 / 299  
OK this isn't bad, (after all you're the one we would like to do the storyline). I think that this could put a new twist on things.

First it would put an influence on the number of power nodes that a player owned. (in other words, whoever controlls the power nodes controlls the world)

Second, it would allow us to play off of your idea of the Lizardmen being raiders. "The Wealth of Nations" Could be at stake and the player could determine who recieved the new power in the land, based on their actions/alliances and who they declare war on.

Third, even though the Humans took over in the End, this would allow for good and evil to put pressure on the Neutral races, the Cult would obviously want the Humans- who would currently be in control of the land, the nodes (and therefore The Wealth of Nations)- to join the forces of evil and use their power(mana/gold) for evil purposes. And for the left over Keepers just the opposite. The Lizardmen would just be a greddy group that wants the power for themselves and isn't interested in petty politics.

Well I'll sit on that for a while.

P.S. Again anyone out there who should be helping but isn't, I hope you don't sleep at night until you offer your services. J/K. Thanks.

My Current List of AoW Accomplishments:
Multi-Player Map #301: Lake of Power
Multi-Player Map #302: Quick War!
Single Player Map # 325: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (single player) Multiplayer Map # 321: The Human Stain- Onslaught! (multi player)
posted 01-24-05 01:09 AM EDT (US)     24 / 299  
Hmm we seem to have gotten a good start with a design team here, and I guess I'm going to give structure to the project.

Two Playtesters have stepped forward who both have done extensive playtesting for me in the past and I highly reccommend them. Enginerd and Dats Me.

I know Dats Me hasn't posted here but he is my son and a very good player who was very influential in my Orc Campaign. Enginerd playtested my Dalk Elf Campaign and did a sterling job. Consider youselves drafted. I would like at least two more playtesters and I plan to approach someone else who has been helpful in the past but have no idea of their time commitments.

Beren has not said yes or no to being the lead writer (I'm hoping he says yes) but as you can see from his post he is extremely knowledgeable regarding the various racial motivations and history of AOW. As Well ffbj whom I respect totally has offered to help in the writing and I suggest we take him up on that.

On the Design front I have made preliminary inquiries to several of the best map makers and expect some answers soon.
I plan to take Dan up on his generous off of using his old maps and hope to prod a new one out of him. As Well my nephew Daemon Zrat will allow us to use his most excellent map (Dire Dwarf Menace), thanks!

So Our Team is thus:

GEO (Great Emperor and Overlord) = Gantiliano

Lead Map Editor and Designer = Arctic Wolf
Map Contributors = Dan Petersson; Daemonzrat; (hopefully many more)

Lead Writer = (Hopefully Beren V)
Writing Contributors = ffbj (Hopefully a few more)

Lead Playtester = Enginerd
Playtest contributors = Dats Me (Hopefully two More)


Hopefully we get a few more volunteers to fill the last vacant spots but I would like to make one thing really, really clear. Do not volunteer unless you really, really plan to help, and let us know of your time constraints. Most of us have real jobs and real families and of course they take precedent over what we are doing, but I have worked in the past with persons who drop in and out of projects at their convenience. Basically you either have time to help of not. If you say you will playtest a map, then playtest it promptly or let us know that you cannot do it that time but would be able to help later. Waiting for persons who do not plan to fulfill a commitment will bog this project down.

However, if you want to contribute but are unsure of your time just say so. We will plug you in when you can help, but forge ahead when you can't.


Another thing, is that although this is Gantiliano's project, I will be taking a lead role in pushing it to fruition. I consider myself to be Gantiliano's chief deputy and will act on his behalf to keep things going forward. Gantiliano will rein me in if I take my authority too far.

Now if anyone has been drafted against their will, I expect them to speak up, and anyone else who wants to contribute raise your hand because we are off to the races.

[This message has been edited by Arctic Wolf (edited 01-24-2005 @ 01:52 AM).]

posted 01-24-05 05:24 AM EDT (US)     25 / 299  
I'd love to help with writing and mapmaking, if I can, but I don't know how much time school is going to take out of me in the near future. This week is a good example. At least I don't have any kids.

I was going to say that I have a couple of maps that I made for a campaign of my own that I could submit, but checking on my old computer I see that I deleted them. D'oh.

Quote:

The entire place of the Undead (or if we want to include them at all). One clear thing about the Undead in AoW is that they are not easily controllable, and they want to kill everything. They are aided by demons. It's their religion, if you will - the destruction of all life.

If you're going to have Highmen, it seems like you ought to have the Undead as well, and vice versa. Wasn't the whole point of the Highmen showing up in the original campaign that Meandor unleashed the Undead upon the world through his resurrection of Inioch? It seems like they aren't willing to interfere with the world unless its destruction at the hands of the Undead becomes a possibility.

posted 01-24-05 06:02 AM EDT (US)     26 / 299  
Just a little thing: I agree that facism should be Evil and that capitalism neutral, but communism should also be Evil! It isn't effective, and tends to turn into bloody tyrany (Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot etc.)! And it destroys art anywhere it strikes! I understand you want to have ,,good" fraction, so maybe it should be alterglobalism (High Men lead by Noan Chomsky, other important guys in this faction: George Soros, John Poul II, Naomi Klein).
posted 01-24-05 10:04 AM EDT (US)     27 / 299  
Just an advice : Don't use too much controversial stuff for the story, like political systems or biblical references. You will get more support if you don't.

As for my contribution to this.... I made a map a long time ago called Dragonstorm. It is a medium map that might fit into the elf or lizard part of the campaign (since it has both grasslands and something that looks like a swamp). You can modify and use it in any way you like.

[This message has been edited by Magog (edited 01-24-2005 @ 03:17 PM).]

posted 01-24-05 01:34 PM EDT (US)     28 / 299  
Great news on the Map Design Front.

Vince Bly (A fantastic single player scenario writer) has joined the Design team. He may or may not contribute some maps but he is digging out his old password such that I may be able to use his stellar "Star Ranger Academy" and "Ruins of Time" maps. This is great news as his input will really be valuable.

Also Gandalf the White has joined. Having worked with Gandalf in the past I know this is great news as he as demonstrated solid map making skills and the ability to utilize criticism to make his maps better. ( Some persons react badly to criticism and this limits their ability but Gandalf really takes to heart honest feedback and strives to improve which is a rare quality)

Thanks also to Magog for allowing use of his wonderful "Dragonstorm" Map.

I honestly do not know at this point if all the contributors will see some of their work in the final product but I do know that the quality of persons agreeing to contribute is fantastic.

Also Blackhound, you have created some most excellent work in the past. "Bone Wars" is a classic map. Feel free to send me any work you wish to contribute, or offer suggestions on storyline and such.

I have created a separate post for map designers and welcome all to post their ideas and possible contributions.

This appears to be a Fantastic Beginning.

posted 01-24-05 02:26 PM EDT (US)     29 / 299  
Note on the Capitolism vs Communism vs Fuedalism angle:

We're just playing around and although we intend to create something worthwhile I don't want anyone to think that our race alignments have anything at all to do with the real alignment of a particular philosophy whether it be religious or political or economic. Economic philosophies are not good nuetral or evil, they are just expressions of systems designed to promote the ecomomic well being of peoples.

Communism in its purest form is an inherently ethical system seeking to share resources equally based upon need rather than greed. It is hardly Evil and it's motivation appears somewhat aligned with the 'Keepers' notion of promoting racial tolerance and sharing the wealth of the land. The motivation of self reliance for the Dwarves, and the mercantile bent of the Halflings provide an apt avenue of conflict within the Keepers such that our Main hero for the Good campaign has apt reason to stray from his alignment with the communist economic model of the Keepers. (I am being extremely loose with my terms here.)

Capitolism in its purest form is actually far less 'ethical' with its root motivation being individualistic rather than society motivated. I believe Beren is right that the Lizards, frostlings and Azracs have great potential for a capitalistic philosophy, based upon our perception of them as 'Raider' nations. Our main hero's perception of the inequalities of the system, (no allowance for the disadvantaged) provides a good oppertunity for this hero to become more evil or good depending upon how he/she deals with the inequalities perceived.

Probably Facism was a poor choice for the Evil races as Fascism was not an issue at the time 'Wealth of Nations' was written. Fuedalism however was a big issue. Fuedalism in my mind more aptly describes the system of leadership within the races of evil alignment. Stormlords who control their own fiefdoms withing the hierarchy of the Orcs, dark elves and goblins is I think quite accurate. Again I can see motivation for our hero to become dienfranchized with this system. The Hero would chafe at the prospect of continually serving his master and yearn for a fiefdom of this own. He may see oppertunity for serving his own destiny in the Capitalistic system, and even jump to the communistic system seeing oppertunities for rife exploitation of the masses.

So it is not the economic, or political systems which are Good, evil or neutral. It is the application of the system which makes it so. Each Hero starts the journey serving the base model for his race but can migrate to the other systems based upon his or her personal disires. Captalism can move through the Campaign to Good or evil or remain Nuetral. Communism can move from Good to nuetral to evil.

Basically each system can become more or less corrupted as we move through the campaign. If our Orc Hero at the End is serving the Keepers it will be because he has found a way within his alignment to corrupt their system.

I hope this clarifies my thought on the basic premise of the campaign. I also understand that the story may take completely different turns than what I have outlined but we need to start with a fully realized premise to move forward.

[This message has been edited by Arctic Wolf (edited 01-24-2005 @ 02:33 PM).]

posted 01-25-05 00:24 AM EDT (US)     30 / 299  
Okay, comments and commitments.

I am quite busy right now, although that may (may) change fairly soon. I will be able to work on this project as a writer, but I don't know how rapidly you want this to go, so you need to say just how rapidly you intend to progress before I will commit to anything.

Now, a few more comments on the ongoing philosophical discussion:

1. There is a discrepancy between communism in theory and communism in practice as it has happened on Earth. Essentially, humans need motivation in order to work hard, and we are selfish enough that most of us will not work as hard "for the good of society" as we will for our own personal gain (or the gain of our families). This tendency can be chalked up to Humans having a neutral alignment in AoW terms. Moreover, the elimination of the previous governmental system creates a staggering power vacuum, and a state controlling the means of production is very easily poised to fill it. This allows monsters like Stalin, Mao, etc. into power and use it, if for their ideologies, and be absolutely brutal about it.

Other races aren't going to have these tendencies. The AoW Elves, for instance, are only partially described, but they feel very Tolkienian, so I am going to go back to Tolkien for their behavior. Tolkien's Elves are a race of artists, who do their work, such as the making of masterful crafts, the cultivation of nutritous crops, mastering the arts of war, etc. because they enjoy doing it. It's Art. In addition, their leaders, while they have them, they don't really do anything (apart from being Artists themselves), except when something needs to be done (fighting a war, etc). In times of peace, the state has all but vanished. Now, if you read Marx' books, this is communism, more or less as he intended it to be (not quite, since the Elves are religious, but they are not "opiated" with their religion). Communism can - and does - work with Elves, even if it does not with Humans.

2. While facism may not have been that great a player in Adam Smith's day, it had existed, because the Romans were facist (it's where the word comes from). Even facism is not necessarily evil; most of the conquered Roman Empire were much better off after being conquered than they were beforehand, since the Romans brought so many of the trappings of civilization with them, such as irrigation, education, law and order with respect to city thieves/bandits/pirates, as well as the infamous "bread and circuses". In some areas (e.g. Scotland, Judea), many of these things were quite unpopular, and the Romans could get pretty harsh to real-problem peoples (again, the Jews leap to mind). The Romans also fought lots of wars with the Persians, also arguably facist but bearing notable similarities in their overall political system and effects on their conquered populace.

3.

Quoted from Black Hound:

If you're going to have Highmen, it seems like you ought to have the Undead as well, and vice versa. Wasn't the whole point of the Highmen showing up in the original campaign that Meandor unleashed the Undead upon the world through his resurrection of Inioch? It seems like they aren't willing to interfere with the world unless its destruction at the hands of the Undead becomes a possibility.

In part, yes. The High Men seem to have two purposes, one being to ward off the Undead and the other to bring the acendancy of humanity. Note, for instance, that the only player you can be in the original campaign that winds up with you allied to the Humans at the end is the High Men. Even as Julia, you have to defeat the High Men. Also note that the High Men have polite relations with Humans, despite tha they are two alignment steps different.

I agree that the High Men are unlikely to be very active unless humanity is there is real evil to be defeated, but I don't think that has to be the Undead if the survival of the Humans is at stake.

It would be nice to see you in this, btw, BH!

4. Regarding the capitalistic position of the neutral races, I would suggest having two neutral beginning campaigns. The Lizardmen would not be business-oriented as much as they would be raiders, and either Lizardman or Azrac starting leaders would work fine, I think. The business-oriented capitalistic player I would suggest should start off playing Humans or Azracs; however, the Leader of that campaign could be anything that isn't either Pure Evil or Pure Good. The reason why I say this is because in capitalism, it is not what you are, but what you are capable of, that matters for anything. An ambitious Halfling merchant or an Orcish mobster seem just as reasonable to me as an Azrac businessman, and it will be his or her business knack and ability to stave off idealists of other systems that will make or break his or her corperate society.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
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