also you can't delete the libraries once they are made. Please fix this.

wait a minute. It seems the libraries aren't even saved. That is why I can't delete them. They are not even created in the first place and saved. Devs, I think you are going to have to fix libaries or delete them.

Yeah. I haven't seen this myself(still don't have AOW2), but I like making custom items and heroes. And having libraries helps alot.

I think you should bring this up in one of the BTOOIC threads so it can get enough replies for the devs to consider listening.

AIE! All my Middle Earth heroes!! I created them in a library, then put them aside for later. grrrr...mumble grumble...*inaudible threats*

Come on Devs, if what Tekk says is true (and I do believe it is) the libraries do need fixing. This is major.

Moving this. Like I said, if you got complains about the editor and would like to address the devs please post them in the suggestion or bug report section.

Whoa, you’re right. Create new library, close editor and reopen… and poof… library gone.

*sigh*

Well, this is really it then. Now I consider it a total joke the devs coming around and saying “the editor is not unfinished.” Any fool who spent five minutes making maps for the original can see clearly that it needs serious work back in the shop. Sure, events are great, elevations are swell, the tree paintbrush is a big, big improvement over what we had before, but none of that matters because it isn’t up to snuff in so many crucial areas. Features that were important and no-brainers to use in AoWed are either missing, broken, or non-intuitive to the extreme. I mean c’mon, I have to run my screen resolution up to a flickering 1600 x 1200 just to have decent space to work with. And buttons that don’t do anything. The validate button.... click click click.... nothing! If this editor was really the one used to create all the maps that come with the game, as they claim, then I’ll be damned. Just puttering around in there for a few hours is torture.

Devs, please listen to Tekk. Read thoroughly all of Alex Mars’ comments, too, he’s been posting his bloody guts out trying to help you sort it all out. As it stands now I fear mapmakers will fast become a dying breed.

~Fingers~

[This message has been edited by Fingers (edited 06-21-2002 @ 02:24 AM).]

hmmm... I wonder if they will listen to us.

Quoted from Fingers:

Fingers, have you used the zoom? That might help a bit.

*opens mouth, gets ready to insert foot*

You mean there is a zoom in the editor? What do I press? My mouse wheel only works in the game.

~Fingers~

Yeah. Theres no zoom :\

Quote:

Have you ever heard the term "jerking our chain"?

Josh and Co will never admit that they screwed up the editor because they are company creatures. They make transparently false statements like the above and are suprised when only the fanboys believe them.

It's pretty obvious that they don't care about the editor or the editor users.

Such bitterness. Some people create great works of art with small sticks of worthless charcoal. Do you blame the charcoal maker for the black smudges on your hands?

Let us repeat the sacred sound.
Oooom. Oooom.

-Danc.

Yes there is a zoom. It's a bit weird though, probably needs to be fixed in a patch

You have to have the terrain selected, then you can use your mousewheel or the = and - keys. 0 sets it to 100%. Sometimes it doesn't work though, even if the terrain is selected. Doesn't seem to work at all if it isn't.

EDIT: Problem is Danc, is that those pieces of charcoal aren't programs on a PC, so they aren't buggy, and hard to work with. Is it too much to ask for an editor which works almost flawlessly? Sure some problems can be expected, but the AoW2Ed has too many for comfort.

[This message has been edited by Mister Pickles (edited 06-21-2002 @ 03:54 PM).]

I tell you what. It is real easy to criticize when it isn't your budget being blown to hell by delays. Here's the truth of the matter. If ever a piece of gaming software gets released that is 100% bug free and works perfectly:
1) its technology will be 3 years out of date because that's how long it would take to get it to that point.
2) some competitor would have released their buggy version first, fixed the problems in a patch (which would have been discovered quicker by the huge fan base than by the programers) and by the time your game gets released it will be viewed as a derivative copy cat and lose half its market.
3) the company that issues it will have long since gone bankrupt from the lack of cash flow.

The game has been out for TEN DAYS PEOPLE...TEN FRICKIN' DAYS!!

"The developers don't care about the editor or map makers??"

I hate to be offensive but I'm gonna be: that's the biggest bunch of whiny ass selfish bullcrap I've heard yet.

The derogatory comments I've seen leveled at the developers (who are under no obligation to be here at all) is ridiculous. You paid $30 and somehow that entitles you to be spiteful and mean spirited. If I were Josh, I'd never even acknowledge comments made by some of you people.

Someone made a post asking the Devs to read all of Alex's posts...you better hope they don't because if I worked my ass of on this game and read a bunch of caustic posts like those, I'd write the lot of you off and not bother to read another.

Ten Days...what the heck do you want in Ten Days...some committment from Josh that these problems will be fixed promptly. I suspect none of the Devs who visit this forum have the authority to committ to that.

So please BACK THE HELL OFF. You get more results with honey than vinegar, and frankly I'd hate to see them stop posting here altogether, although I couldn't really blame them if they did.

Being a passionate fan is great, but these personal attacks are friggin' outrageous.

BTW: there is no "e" in awful...

Val, you just got here, right? The tone I take with the devs is the result of their actions. They ignore the tough questions and cherry-pick the easy ones from the fanboys, treat us in a condescending manner, and deliver an editor that has less functionality than the original and is broken as well (note this topic).

The editor community is unhappy, and when we complain about the state of the editor we are told it is fine and complete.

Eh? We were told it was fine and complete? Can you please show me a link to that Alex (not that I doubt you or anything, it's just so I can read it).

Val, it's kind of rough though, when other issues get answered, some of which aren't near as important as the editor, and the editor gets put on the back burner. The editor is a monstrously big part of the community (over 300 maps for AoW1 are posted here at AoW Heaven (more maps at other sites), while only 23 came with the game). One of the biggest replayability features of AoW1&2 are the custom maps. Thus the devs should not only release an editor which is fully functional (the verify button doesn't work and the hero library problem come to mind) but they should also address its bugs and shortcomings as much as the full game.

Editors are generally made to create the type of maps that were included in the game box.

The AoW2 editor is fine for creating the sort of maps you see in the campaign. Limited time, and limited budget means that editors are optimized for creating shipped maps. Imagine the following situation:

"We need to finish off the 20 maps that constitute the play experiance of 99% of our buyers. We also promised the publisher those maps and they'll nix any chance of doing a sequel if we fail to deliver on time.

Should we:

A: Add a map making feature increases our chance of completing the game on time.
B: Add a feature that might be nice, but it doesn't support our vision and will certainly delay the product"

Such logic makes perfectly good sense to a game developer. There's nothing spiteful about it. They listen and weigh the options. "Cherry picking" is actually completely rational behavior that benefits the majority of players, the publishers, and the developers.

Unfortunately for the developers, there exists a type of buyer who buys a game for the sole purpose of creating their unique gaming world. The maps that the developers slaved over are really just extraneous fluff from this perspective. Such buyers curse the developers for 'obviously' making stupid choices about what to add to the editor. "You should have added multi-nodal triggers with the ability automatically split parties because I've got a map I just thought of two night ago that needs that feature. What's the point of the game if I can't make the maps I desire?"

When you complain about an editor you are saying
"Damn you for not optimizing your development schedule to fit my particular style of map making" Is it even rational to expect a developer to build the perfect editor for creating "Map Maker X's Dream Tolkien Fantasy Map with individually modeled Pelicans"?

Honestly, I suspect that since the AoW developers care deeply about their fans, patches and future additions will take care of quite a few of the raised issues. Considering the fact that you are dealing with a simple situation of good people with different perspectives, what use is the bitterness?

If changes come down the line, let there be rejoicing. In the mean time, even with all the 'limitations, bugs, and quirks,' you still have an extraordinarily powerful creative tool. Instead of focusing on what is not there, surprise yourself and create something amazing with what options are available. No, it won't be the map you've been dreaming for the past two years, but with a little perseverance there is vast potential to create an entirely new experiance.

take care,
Danc (the long winded)

Freedom Force is bug free ...I didnt notice any but i only played thru it once. No patch out for it yet... First game i can think of in eons that has not needed a patch... I deserves mention ..and it was fun but short.

Well, Freedom Force is a more mass market game than AoW which means they can charge higher and still get a lot of customers. It also means more funding, more hype and a lot of other stuff that needs a lot of monet to do. Trust me, no matter how good this game is, Triumph would have a hard time breaking even. Too few people play TBS for them to have to put in a few more months at work in this game and still not lose too much money.

Quoted from Tanc:

My guess is that that's the reason we're posting, and trying to get the devs to actually pay attention, and post in the these topics.

Quoted from Danc:

Fortunately, I don't think anyone who's posting here is like that. We're not cursing about minor little details. Having a library that doesn't save what you create isn't minor, making an XL map, then finding out the validate button doesn't work isn't minor. No offence, but your examples are pointless because they fail to actually mirror what our requests are. They're not "multi-nodal triggers with the ability automatically split parties", these are major items that need addressing.

[This message has been edited by Mister Pickles (edited 06-22-2002 @ 03:43 AM).]

Seen and noted this Bug ... It'll be on the patch list ...

btw. Being nice to dev's does work you know ... ergh

lol

thanks for the response Sik. All we ever wanted was a dev to respond

Just got word that AoW2 was delayed again for Holland.

Perhaps I will get the game after the patch. That will be a positive thing with an otherwise unbearable situation..
I'll be able to edit my first map with libraries!

(SikBok, any idea on when the first patch will be out?
And don't say 'soon', plz...)

And thanks for the attention!

Thanks for responding Sikbok. All I wanted to hear was that it was documented, rather than be ignored.

Quote:

Actually, I've been here almost since the beginning...all through the forming of BTOOIC and the "Map Designers aren't artists" Flamewar. I just played the demo long enough to know I wanted the game, so I didn't have much to post. Checked in for updates everyday though. I don't think I even bothered to get a log-on until the survey came out.

Quote:

Well maybe the easy one are the ones they know the answer to right away, and the others they need to get back to you on. Maybe, they just have other things to do than read this forum 24/7 in case someone posted a "hey dev" question.

Maybe having devs around to answer even the easy questions is a better situation than most game forums I know of.

Maybe the devs don't feel they are beholden to be at the beck and call of a handful of people who think its ok to be rude just because they're impatient.

All I'm saying, is please point out all of the problems you have...just put the zippo away while you do it.

If devs wouldn't care of us, then why they would bother to COME here, READ our MESSAGES and EVEN REPLY OUR MESSAGES??

Heck, the game hasn't even been relased in my country!!
The game has bugs and stuff that are,to say the truth VERY
stupid(why, oh why...random guardians) beacuse the game is
very young.

Creating a directory named "User" within the main aow2 directory should allow libraries to be saved.

Quoted from Jen Dragon:

Neverwinter Nights was in development for FIVE years and it was patched the very next day after it was released. Bugs slip through.

Quoted from Valamir:

Amen to that! "Spiteful and mean spirited" is putting it nicely. The 'high-horse' attitude wore out a long time ago.

Quoted from Alex:

You're not treating them much better. Like Sikbok said, being nice works too!

....

I recall a similar scenario back in the fall of 1998 (way back when I first joined HeavenGames in fact) when the city-builder game Caesar 3 was released. The forumers were instantly screaming for a patch and they all sounded like whiny children. The game has been out for only a few short weeks, lets give the devs a break!

Rather than demand an immediate patch that puts a band-aid on a small number of things, it would be much more beneficial if everyone shows a little patience and makes thoughtful, polite suggestions for a patch that will address several significant issues.