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AoW1 Competitions, Tournaments & Wizard's Ladder
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Topic Subject: 2v2 Tournament Setup Discussion - feedback requested
posted 01-06-09 06:24 PM EDT (US)   
Our next big tourney will start in a few weeks but I’d like to get some of the details worked out. This will be a 2v2 tourney… that means 2 players will take on 2 other players with allied victory enabled. Sounds simple… now the details (please post your comments so we can finalize things, just remember… the fewer comments the more reasons you have to gripe at me for just choosing something you don’t like ).

Teams – how do you want to select the teams? Do you select your teammate or is it random? How many teams can you play on… 1, 2, 3?

Map – I’m working on this right now and have already received some recommendations on some classic older maps that play well. I’m also looking at some newer ones (from the recent mapmaking tourney) and maybe even one that hasn't been released yet. Please comment on types of maps you would prefer to play (small, slugfest, epic, no other AI, lots of AI, etc), feel free to recommend maps too or reference maps. Example Riverland Wars is an excellent map (and a classic) with lots of options for 2v2 setup.

Tourney Scoring/Brackets – what does this look like? Is it a single elimination, round robin, change teams around for future rounds, change maps around for future rounds, etc. We got 16 for the last tourney, we can probably expect 8-16 for this one.

Timing – hope to get the details figured out this month so we can start the first games in Feb

Other Thoughts? In case I missed something
posted 01-06-09 07:03 PM EDT (US)     1 / 17  
Yo, I have some suggestions for maps:

  • Barondir Bay
  • Rise of the South
  • First Conflict
  • Thinreed Lake
  • After the Fall

I know they're all pre-programmed, but they still fit the format.
posted 01-06-09 09:56 PM EDT (US)     2 / 17  
I wouldn't mind using some pre-made levels for a change, either. Love Thy Neighbor would be a good one for this as there are only four races (all the evil ones).

As for the teams, I think it should be random ... that way two of the best players can't be on the same team (not a very good chance, anyway).

Jim Brannen
Skype: jim_brannen
Timezone: -5 GMT (New York Time)
posted 01-07-09 00:14 AM EDT (US)     3 / 17  
I think it would be a good idea if we used a different map for each round of the tournament this time. We certainly want round 1 to go faster than last time (I don't mean the current tourney, I mean last time we had 4-player games and all but 1 died in round 1 ) so I think it would be good to use a very small slugfest-type map for round 1, and ramp up the size, complexity and game length in subsequent rounds. Let's see if I can't come up with some examples...

small and quick: I don't think I've ever played any of these, but Blood Isles, Divine Chess and Shortland War all look suitable.

intermediate: I don't know...Thinreed Lake, I Takes More, Repent Charlatan!, The God Who Was Defeated, The Apprentice, Emperor of Tun, etc.

big maps with lots of stuff that take a relatively long time to finish (*drool*) : Riverland Wars, Hunters of Blood, Pride of a Princess, Legends of Hectoraze, etc.

Those are just examples, let me know if you like the idea or have another map to add.
posted 01-07-09 05:01 AM EDT (US)     4 / 17  
i might start making a 2v2 just for the fun of it
i need a new project to work on
posted 01-07-09 06:34 AM EDT (US)     5 / 17  
I think it would make the 2v2 abit more interesting if players would actually choose their own team partners and forge their own teams, but of course there should be somekind of restrictions to prevent the immortal-god-runover-teamup of Thorongil and Enginerd -kind of champions. Although there is only a minor change, the randomization of teams might end up bad concerning the previous..
I think that the maps should be changed for every new round, but breaking the teams apart is a no-go. At least if we got the teams working out quite equal to eachother, then definately no. Naturally, there are opposing opinions too.

-/X\(++)/X\-L.E.D. Frozen Warrior-/X\(++)/X\-
posted 01-07-09 09:44 AM EDT (US)     6 / 17  
I'd agree with Deroman, once you have a partner who works well with you, why switch? Of course, if your partner disappears you may have a problem, so perhaps just leave it up to the individuals whether to switch around or not? Say teams will stay the same unless both parties request and agree to a switch, for instance if I am allied with Deroman the first game, and after that he decides he's had all he can take of my blundering, he may want to switch and team up with someone else for the second game, in which case he asks around to see who else is looking for a new partner.
Does that make sense?

I would also probably prefer to select my own partner, but randomizing it (perhaps with some editing at the end, would work too. Maybe see how many people sign up and who they are, and then go from there?

As far as the maps, I think bigger maps are generally better for team games, (i.e. Riverland or Pride of a Princess) but of course take a lot longer. One thing I think is that the maps used should be slightly edited to ally the different teams right from the start, in case one person is far from his teammate while the other two are fairly close.

Anyhow that's my 1 cents worth, and if sKout makes a new map that's even better! (perhaps his can be used for round 2 if we want to start the tourney before it is done?)

If you've come for a visit, you'd be welcome with fewer, if you've come to take me away, you'll need a lot more.
posted 01-07-09 10:34 PM EDT (US)     7 / 17  
Ideally, no one would be held responsible for their teammate dropping out. On the other hand, if everyone had a different partner every round, wouldn't that make the "teams" meaningless?

Imagine if we were having a doubles tennis tournament, and my team somehow makes it to the last round (despite the fact that I am terrible at all known sports except soccer), but then my teammate Enginerd comes down with Tennis Elbow and can't play, so I ask my close friend Venus Williams to join my team. Of course she proceeds to destroy the competition Venus and I are the winning team, right? But how can Enginerd "lose" when he got his team to the finals in spite of my inability, and his team won? It seems like the only way to have a meaningful outcome would be if we keep the teams the same for the whole tournament. Anyway I see only 3 options for replacing players:
  1. Allow everyone to change teams at will
  2. If your teammate drops out permanently, you may replace him with a sub (NOT from another team)
  3. If your teammate drops out you lose

Note that #1 only works if an even number of players drop out. If your teammate is the only one who quits, you can't form a new team without leaving someone else without a team.

#3 seems harsh but it's similar to the policy set by Enginerd for the 1 vs 1 tournament, which seems to be working. #2 may seem like a reasonable alternative, but my fear is that in the past when the consequences of dropping out were less dire, lots of people dropped out, and when we got subs the subs dropped out, and so on until the whole tourney imploded Somehow, everyone needs to be clear that you shouldn't sign up for the tournament unless you know what you're signing up for and you're committed to seeing it through.

I also agree that large maps are better for team games; my concern is that with 4 players even 3 single-elimination rounds would take too long, which is why I suggested using smaller maps for the early stages. (This might also help prevent people from dropping out in round 1.)
posted 01-08-09 04:31 AM EDT (US)     8 / 17  
"The Cauldron" should be in the multiplayer download section... an older project of mine I never got to finish properly, it's not the map that I was working on.

I remembered I have it so I decided to finish editing it, playtest it really quick and submit it. It might be what you are looking for in the first part of the competition; it's medium-sized with conflict starting somewhere around the 5-6th turn.

Again, this is not the map I was working on.
posted 01-08-09 06:07 AM EDT (US)     9 / 17  
I'd give my vote for the 3. "If your teammate drops out you lose" option. This is a harsh way to be eliminated, but yet effective in determinating who success and who doesn't, aswell as effective way to keep the tournament running smoothly from beginning to the end. Nevertheless, there should be a reasonable time for a teamplayer to return to the game after a "short absence", and especially if someone has some RL issues to sort, stating it and the (reasonable) time he/she is going to be away from the game, it should be permitted without loss of a team - case sensitive of course.

-/X\(++)/X\-L.E.D. Frozen Warrior-/X\(++)/X\-
posted 01-08-09 05:18 PM EDT (US)     10 / 17  
Sounds excellent - in particular a romp in RiverlandWars at some stage. That would be...

I fourth the partner rules.

Token Irish Gamer!
posted 01-08-09 06:33 PM EDT (US)     11 / 17  
Summarizing main thoughts from posts above:

Random teams seems preferred but want to avoid the uber teams.

Team members stay the same throughout the tourney

Teammate stops playing and leaves the forum... team loses (although I think we need to do something to allow for RL absences where the team player is coming back, that's easy to incorporate)

Lots of recommendations


????? single elimination, round robin with point system for victory (speedy victory), etc, your thoughts?
posted 01-09-09 00:24 AM EDT (US)     12 / 17  
I agree heavily on the idea that smaller maps for the first rounds, if not it will be eternal, scoring should be trhough single elimination brackets cause doing a round robin thing would be too long. With all the other rules I agree, teams randomized but they stay the same throughout the tourney. Im in btw. as maps I would love Barondir Bay for first round, not too big and 4 neutral races.
posted 01-14-09 04:54 AM EDT (US)     13 / 17  
Ok, "The Eye of Yaka" should be in the multiplayer downloads section. It's a 2v2 map with orcs & goblins vs elves & dwarves. Each player starts close to its ally and team work will surely pay off here.

Have fun if you decide to use it in your tournament.
posted 02-21-09 02:06 PM EDT (US)     14 / 17  
OK... here are my thoughts (oh... I'd like to figure this out by the end of the month so we can get moving on this in march)

Teams Random teams... sort of.... I'm going to take all participants and split them into two groups of the same size... I'm then going to use my best judgements to have a Strong/veteran group and the other group. I'll then randomly pick one player from each group. In theory.... this will help balance out the strength of the teams and avoid the Enginerd and Draco uber team .

Tourney structure I'm thinking round robin groups of 3, then you play 2 games to start things off (same map for first round). 3 teams works out well as you'd get to play both sides in this first round. I'll have to come up with a tie-breaker system if all three teams split and go 1-1. After the round robin play ends the winning team advances to the next (and likely final) round playing on a different map. I figure if we could get 12 players (6 teams), two groups of three and the winners meet up in the finals.

posted 02-28-09 05:53 PM EDT (US)     15 / 17  
OK...... we've waited long enough... posted the sign ups for the 2v2 tourney. Good luck and have fun!
posted 03-01-09 05:58 AM EDT (US)     16 / 17  
I think you should make a news post about this...

A proud member of the Unofficial Patch team.
Creator of the AoW1 Mod.
posted 03-01-09 01:49 PM EDT (US)     17 / 17  
News post coming.... finalizing it this afternoon
Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW1 Competitions, Tournaments & Wizard's Ladder » 2v2 Tournament Setup Discussion - feedback requested
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