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Topic Subject: Highmen vs Undead
posted 10-30-01 01:58 PM EDT (US)   
Well I think this map is not balanced ;P

a)Highmen can have 2 heroes,

b)Highman have a lot concealed units and can play sneaky

c)Highmen can hide in mountains,even wall crushers like giants can!

d)Rangers can swim wallclimb AND are concealed

e)undeads lack healing especially the ord warlords etc

f)highmen have bless and stoneskin

g)they seem to be stronger in melee as well

I am surprised how many undead players will win the game,of course it depends who plays which race,but if both races would be played by even players it would be like 7 highmen win and 1 undead win

Replies:
posted 10-30-01 02:41 PM EDT (US)     1 / 29  
seems like someone says this every time, though, about balance. just to be a devil's (or undead's advocate)...

"a)Highmen can have 2 heroes,"

Only if they manage to charm the hero, and the undead have an equal opportunity to dominate a hero.

"b)Highman have a lot concealed units and can play sneaky"

I'd have to check, but one ranger doesn't seem like a lot to me. Do the undead start with a shadow or assassin? Those are concealed as well, though not as versatile.

"c)Highmen can hide in mountains,even wall crushers like giants can!"

Well, yeah, but how useful are they by themselves? Not all of the highmen can go in the mountain and so you can draw them into a fight if they are adjacent. If they're not adjacent, how good is the stack without giants going to be?

"d)Rangers can swim wallclimb AND are concealed"

Rangers don't wall climb.

"e)undeads lack healing especially the ord warlords etc"

But they regenerate, both players have 1 water (healing water), and both parties can build shammans or priests in another race's 2h city. Besides, the AI in fast combat never casts healing, you have to have priests in order to get that in combat.

"f)highmen have bless and stoneskin"

undead have dark gift and stoneskin. get cursed and bless doesn't help anymore.

"g)they seem to be stronger in melee as well"

On this I disagree. As far as races go, the undead directly aren't quite as strong as the highmen, but when you add warlords, which can stand up to just about anything and have higher defense than the titan, giant, and first borne, the undead side is as strong or stronger.

If we are talking straight up highmen vs. undead, then I agree that highmen have an edge just in general terms. Many units have turn undead, holy strike, or holy bolts. It's easy to enchant weapon those few that don't, and some of the undead's best advantages are easily nullified by this. But when you have evil vs. good with undead and highmen as simply the leaders, it can be a very different story. How many undead players are going to migrate that 4h city to undead? Not many. Given a choice, who wouldn't go for orcs with warlords and maybe red dragons?


posted 10-30-01 04:34 PM EDT (US)     2 / 29  
--->seems like someone says this every time, though, about balance. just to be a devil's (or undead's advocate)...

I said the other maps were balanced,but this one isn't.

-->I'd have to check, but one ranger doesn't seem like a lot to me. Do the undead start with a shadow or assassin? Those are concealed as well, though not as versatile.

No they don't have a ranger NOR an assassin,bad luch eh?

--->Well, yeah, but how useful are they by themselves? Not all of the highmen can go in the mountain and so you can draw them into a fight if they are adjacent. If they're not adjacent, how good is the stack without giants going to be?

Very usefull,especially near the 4 hex which is surrounded by mountains.

-->But they regenerate, both players have 1 water (healing water), and both parties can build shammans or priests in another race's 2h city. Besides, the AI in fast combat never casts healing, you have to have priests in order to get that in combat.

The main undead melee force consists of warlord which can be build at the lvl 3 cities,or the warlord you can buy in the lvl city,you need healing to heal them...

--->undead have dark gift and stoneskin. get cursed and bless doesn't help anymore.

Fine,but I think you realized undead is THE race highmen is best vs?
High resistence (no curse ;P) and a lot of turn undead and holy/magic strikes,holy champion etc.....

--->On this I disagree. As far as races go, the undead directly aren't quite as strong as the highmen, but when you add warlords, which can stand up to just about anything and have higher defense than the titan, giant, and first borne, the undead side is as strong or stronger.

They have bless and stone skin,and you only have 1 warlord

--->Only if they manage to charm the hero, and the undead have an equal opportunity to dominate a hero.

Well in my case my hero started near the undead 4 hex ,and I had no chance to get her before the titan would kill her 1st chance he got to move.

Ok,we will see how the undead /highmen win % is after all games have been finished
I don't think anyone could beat me with the highmen,not pbem nor live mp.And I say anyone.I want to finish my game 1st,but if you want you can try your advocate skills on the battlefield


posted 10-30-01 05:14 PM EDT (US)     3 / 29  
Well, I'm the highmen in my game. For my sake I hope you're right.

By "someone", I said that someone has claimed imbalance on every map so far, not you specifically.

While the highmen might have an advantage on the surface and the mountains, one cannot forget the undead's speed underground. Once that karagh is freed (assuming it is), it and a beetle can go cruising and hit the enemy from underneath.

I do agree in principle. When I heard that it was highmen vs. undead, my first thought was "aren't the highmen geared towards killing off the undead?". Like you said, we'll see.

posted 10-30-01 05:22 PM EDT (US)     4 / 29  
I play the undead. Does this mean I'm not a favorite anymore
posted 10-30-01 05:44 PM EDT (US)     5 / 29  
I hated Hated Hated the last map. I think this map is much better. And i'm playing the Undead.

>>No they don't have a ranger NOR an assassin,bad luch eh?

There is an Assassin, Troll and Big bettle, in the lower dungeon of the undead side.

Melee attack, The undead have a one up there aswell. the highmen have better range yes, and most units have holy champion but still the undead have better starting melee units.

The healing water that was the first spell i researched, came in just 3 days aswell. the Undead can have Stone Skin, enchanted weapon, Dark gift, entangle, healing water, ect... it's about the same as the highmen pretty well blanced there.

The 2 heros thing i domnated my hero. and told my chalnger to do that. seems to be a mistake some where in the game set up.

The Giants well, giants ar one of the best untis in the game so you cant wine that the good race will be able to have them. we get warlords and dragons.

If you want arg we can play a pbem you being the highmen and i the undead.


Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another.

posted 10-31-01 06:42 AM EDT (US)     6 / 29  
Yeah well the combination highmen vs undead is a bit unlucky though,maybe it should have been highmen vs orcs ore undead vs elves....

Either way I am not good with undeads,nor do I like the fact you get so many high lvl units in the early game....
I prefer classic maps And this map is as horrible for me as the last one was for you 420

I guess Tasslehoff is kicking my a** right now,and his winning chance has risen to about 90%

Guess I can concentrate on the double games from now on :-)

posted 10-31-01 11:34 AM EDT (US)     7 / 29  
I thought the strength of Arg's game was quick hero development. I would have to agree that the number of high level units in the early game diminishes that strategy quite a bit.

We all have the same thing, but I would agree with Arg's position that a player who is strong on a classic style map has to play a different type game on this one. I think the pbem crowd is a little more used to playing on more developed maps like Coming of the Dread Lord where you're fighting dragons from day 1.

posted 10-31-01 01:06 PM EDT (US)     8 / 29  
Well froggy,I can do hero boosting but it's not really my game,or better WAS :-)

My game was to find a good mixture about lvl 1 rush and upgrading

posted 10-31-01 01:24 PM EDT (US)     9 / 29  
Well a level one rush isn't going to work in this game for sure. Of course if you're successful in a level one rush, upgrading isn't really a concern. In fact, I don't know how you can do both. Upgrading usually requires all the gold you can muster.

In this game, as long as you have your main hero you still have a chance to win. Spellcasting II is pretty powerful in the hands of a crafty player.

posted 10-31-01 05:40 PM EDT (US)     10 / 29  
i always love how he pulls out the hero boosting, when it's not a factor. :-/. Arg I thik you havent prepared your self for this round/map ( much like i did last round, Pbems really disrupt my style i find my self just moveing units instead of "playing" ) But i practiced on this map in classic mode and learned to adapt. That the KEY to a good player :-p

If you want to do a rush arg you should go for the underground. One stragy i was thinking of useing; controling and hitting hard from the underground is the key to that kind of Move. Dont let me Down Dont know how your doing but if it's bad i suggest you head down under. theres a devil, bone crusher, and a Karagh in a Dungeon on the undead side, aswell as two cities with good units.

i agree dont get me wrong this map could use some work. maby less level 3 starting units yes, but much better than the last map. at lest to me.


Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another.

posted 11-01-01 04:07 AM EDT (US)     11 / 29  
I already lost my karagh and bone horrors
Yeah the karagh and 1 bonehorror where my mistake although I did not think I would lose that fight

I know how I could possibly 'turn' the game but that would be very risky,it's very likely my hero will die and if he does I've finally lost :/

Tasslehoff has control of both lvl 4's and the troops in the lower-lef´t-edge-4square are stronger than anything I have and his hero is hiding there

Not good for me is the fact that my main force is in south as well and I have basically no troops to regain the northern lvl 4 city nor can I get the s.4square back.
I think he is ruling the surface pretty easily,I have underground but there is no 4 square there

Yeah 420 that is what I thought,I was just moving units,actually I have screwed up the same way vs Guvmint in the 1st round,but managed to turn the game in midgame putting more 'effort' into my turns...but I wonder if it is to late vs Tas right :/
The advantages are definatly on his side
Gah

I wish the winner would be determined in a best of 3 games series ;P

posted 11-01-01 05:39 AM EDT (US)     12 / 29  
IMO the undead have a small advantage, because they can control the underground and the arena there. It takes pretty long before the highmen can produce any lv 4 units and the undead dont need them at all to win....

[This message has been edited by waterfly (edited 11-01-2001 @ 05:40 AM).]

posted 11-01-01 10:08 AM EDT (US)     13 / 29  
(Posting from Dusseldorf)


This just shows how friggin hard it is to balance a map! We´ve been several experienced players/mapmakers balancing it and to be honest I think we did a good job! I promise you I can make a perfectly balanced map - but believe me you do not want to play it!! As always when these complaints about balance appears it seems like someone is losing a game and blames it on the map!

Next map can be Humans vs Humans if you´d like - exactly symmetrical and no starting troops...sounds like fun!?

EDIT:As for playing best out of 3 Calvin suggested something like that before the competition even started - it got voted down or igored...

I think that best out of two would be good - playing éach side one time...


ThEJeRk

My Hotmailaccount sometimes fills up. Please try this adress if that happens: aow2mail@yahoo.se

[This message has been edited by The Jerk (edited 11-01-2001 @ 10:11 AM).]

posted 11-01-01 11:24 AM EDT (US)     14 / 29  
Best out of 2 would be the most fair and if it comes out 1-1 which it would be likely to do now when only some of the nest players are left the day of victory would decide it...

If both games were played simultainiously it wouldnt take more time...maybe even less time cuz both players know that it could be importatnt to win fast....ofcourse some would get stressed by this way of playing and complain about that instead

But this is the first AoW WC Tournament!!! How could it be perfect? I never did anything perfect on my first try

If it was possible to make everyone pleased there wouldnt be all these wars in the world I guess...

Hmm....if someone else wrote this and I read it I would probably totally disagree with him/her and think that they should have shut up instead but what the....I dont want everyone to like me


/Eriksson
Life is nothing but a game
poe@telia.com
posted 11-01-01 12:28 PM EDT (US)     15 / 29  
Nah, I disagree Eriksson but I still like you

Too many games will burn people out. Its not like this is the last tourny, its just the first. Sure luck is involved and in some cases the better player will lose, but thats what makes it fun, you never know how it will go. It keeps some fresh blood in the later rounds instead of every tourny being dominated by a few players.

When I lose, it may not be to a better player, but it will be to a deserving player. It will be tough for pure luck to carry someone to the final. I suspect we will have two very good players in there using the format we have.

Regarding the balancing of the map, I think you have to say that the highmen are built to take out the undead. The other evil races help balance it out and the undead have their strengths. Playing the undead I am far from tossing in the towel. I think jerk did a nice job on the map. There are lots of options and it is certainly not linear development. You have to make choices and the same choice could be great in one game and fail miserably in another. I think that will help balance the outcomes.

I think the mountaineering and swimming of the highmen is a big advantage as well as turn undead and would bet the highmen win the majority of the games if I had to pick.

posted 11-01-01 01:00 PM EDT (US)     16 / 29  
I have to say that I was very pleased with the map Jerk came up with. When he was developing it, we didn't think of it so much as Undead vs Highmen, but as Good vs Evil, since both players have access to all 4 races of their respective alignment.

What if we had the exact same map, but instead of Highmen vs Undead, it was Elves vs Dark Elves? And, of course, the two heroes would be changed from Highmen and Undead to Elf and Dark Elf, respectively. Would people consider it to be a balanced map then?

-Cay


Cay
CayMack on Xbox LIVE, PlayStation Network, and Steam. CayMack#1436 on BattleNet.
Visit: TrueAchievements|TrueTrophies
posted 11-01-01 01:21 PM EDT (US)     17 / 29  
Frogman: Now thats ofcourse a good point that more games would burn people out....see already at this point I disagree with myself

And now when I think of it, the more luck that is involved the more chance I myself have in the coming tournaments

You know what? I havent even looked at the round 2 map so I dont know why I'm posting here at all....but ofcourse I could have an opinion anyways....

I could go further down into this but I dont think I should, in that case I would like to have an own forum called "Erikssons Mind". Ofcourse it would have to be moderated by someone else cuz I sure dont know whats going on in there sometimes

How can you disagree with someone who disagrees with himself...


/Eriksson
Life is nothing but a game
poe@telia.com
posted 11-03-01 01:11 PM EDT (US)     18 / 29  
Well, I just won as the undead in 6 days. Speed in the caverns is an overwhelming advantage as my karagh reached the highmen dungeon at day 4 and the titan, valkyrie and avenger were mine. This move allowed me to cut off the reinforcements moving south. The highmen would have to race for their dungeon from day one which they are unlikely to do considering the tempting 4 hex. Since the undead move first, the highmen would have to be at the dungeon on day 3 to beat the karagh.

I think the undead have to raze that city and push everything south. Its a tough strategy for the highmen to counter. Hiding in the bushes is a useless strategy for the highmen against an enemy that is massing a full scale assault.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 11-03-2001 @ 10:22 PM).]

posted 11-04-01 02:37 AM EDT (US)     19 / 29  
*mutters* Ah shaddap.

Heh heh... but seriously.... the speed he worked at was like... "Wham Bham Thank you Ma'am!" damned karagh....

posted 11-04-01 05:11 AM EDT (US)     20 / 29  
Well if he had prepared for the underground part your Karagh would have been killed...
posted 11-04-01 05:14 AM EDT (US)     21 / 29  
And it's interesting that most other undead players got a 2nd hero,I could not:

My hero started near the undead 4 hex which was taken by the titan and catapult on day 1,how in earth could I have dominated him????
my doom priest was like 5 turns away!

:-(

posted 11-04-01 02:35 PM EDT (US)     22 / 29  
You got a bad break Arg. Many undead players got the second hero to appear right next to their main armies. In my test game with archmagesun my secondary hero was in the same situation as you, and you're right, theres nothing you can do to save him. Seems there should be some way to get the game to be a little more consistant with starting conditions. Having the second hero is a big edge.

The highmen have a lot to do early in the game and getting to the cavern dungeon by day 3 is not that obvious. Sure it could happen, but thats why I say in one game a move may work great and in another it could be disaster.

posted 11-04-01 04:02 PM EDT (US)     23 / 29  
Well my Karagh got killed in the caves

he had bad luck but what that's life I guess

posted 11-04-01 11:33 PM EDT (US)     24 / 29  
My undead enemy hasn't even released his karagh, and it's day 6. Of course, I waited until day 4 to get the northern towers and just realized that, but I'll be in my lower dungeon before he has any chance of getting there, thankfully.

I certainly have to rethink my playing strategy in this tournament. In many respects, I'm too used to single player, not in the sense that I think others will act like the ai, but in that I play a bit too conservatively, exploring and securing rather than charging and gutting.

In my game, the undead extra hero showed up at their 4h city as well, so I charmed her. It was fortunate because I was unable to charm the good hero that showed up near my main army and had to kill her. If I'd been a bit luckier, I'd have started the game with 3 spell casting heroes.

posted 11-05-01 00:10 AM EDT (US)     25 / 29  
I suppose if the highmen knew that the karagh would be at their cavern dungeon at day 4 they could stop it, but the highmen would have to be there by day 3. I just don't see that many highmen players doing that when there are other dungeons that need attention first. My strategy would have worked well against Caitiff too. Of course it all works on the element of surprise. If I had to play this map again I would have to come up with something different.

Did anyone playing the highmen get to their cavern dungeon on day 3?

Charging and gutting.....yeah I would say that was more my style than exploring and securing. Get a killer stack and go kill with it.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 11-05-2001 @ 00:17 AM).]

posted 11-06-01 00:42 AM EDT (US)     26 / 29  
Oh, yeah, Frogman, I can see that your strategy would have worked against me as well. My forces are a bit more together than Blackmane's sounded, but if you had come up on day 5 with a karagh, titan, avenger, and valkyrie, I'd have pretty much been toast.

I am curious as to what else went with or followed your karagh as support. If I had been undead, I probably would have taken the towers and secured the evil cities, waiting for some reinforcements before making the push. I don't think it would have even occurred to me to explore the good guy's dungeon and use those troops against them.

posted 11-06-01 10:14 PM EDT (US)     27 / 29  
Caitiff, my karagh didn't have any back up but he was stone skinned and enchanted and silver medaled. I had the level 3 hero for healing and spells but no one could keep up with the karagh. Add a titan, valkyrie, and an avenger and he didn't need much else.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 11-07-2001 @ 09:18 AM).]

posted 11-07-01 07:10 PM EDT (US)     28 / 29  
and he managed to clean house in that dungeon too. *shudder*

BTW did you clean your side of the dungeon?

posted 11-07-01 07:55 PM EDT (US)     29 / 29  
I had the three hex taken with the wraith, and bone horror. I didn't have time to get to the two hex to the north with forces to take it. At that point I figured I had all the troops I needed and was mainly focused on moving them to the surface to the highmen side. I moved the demon to the surface on the undead side right away and was moving him north to put pressure on the rear cities and force the highmen to leave some troops guarding.

If you're playing for a rush, you can't afford to waste a lot of time getting cities that will never produce anything in time to do any good. A good example is that timed campaign scenario. Once you understand the clock is running, it changes your objectives completely.

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