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Topic Subject: Scantily Clad Female Wizards
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posted 04-11-02 02:09 PM EDT (US)   
I thought this might be an interesting point to discuss a little further.

First, let me include links to each wizard's full-size portrait:
Artica
Arachna
Nimue
Mab
Karissa
Serena

Second, let me acknowledge that the portraits of the female wizards are fantastic. I love the pictures of Artica and Nimue. Arachna is wonderfully spidery and dark. We can definitely see the difference in quality between these and portraits of Mab and Serena (computer generated). The hand-drawn portraits are beautiful.

I'll also say that I'm sure very few females actually read these boards, and I know that the female market is a very small part of the overall market for computer games in general, and probably strategy games in particular (anecdotal evidence from my acquaintances seems to support women enjoying puzzle and role-playing games most).

But I did feel a little concern when I saw the portrait of Karissa, who looks like the cover of a bad heavy metal album, and is wearing almost nothing, and that of Mab, who is obviously making heavy use of adhesives to hold up her umm, armor.

Now that we have seen all the female wizards, I wonder why, out of all six, none are wearing any reasonable armor (yes, I know they are wizards, and may be hiding in their towers, but it is not uncommon in literature and movies for female wizards to wear some semblance of armor... see Xena and Julia for the molded breastplate thing), every one has sizable, and plunging, cleavage, and none (that I can see) cared to cover up her belly or legs. It doesn't disturb me that every one of them is beautiful, as after all one expects them to be charismatic, and I can't say I liked the old goblin female hero portrait (used for Sister Tersia), or the paucity of female portraits in general among the heroes and leaders of AoW. However, I'm just not crazy about the way they are dressed.

For a male viewpoint, I did an informal poll (of two people), and it came out pretty much the way I expected. The teenaged boy said he loved Karissa, and having portraits like that of Karissa, and the nymph from the original, enhanced his enjoyment of the game. The guy closer to my age said the portraits didn't offend him, but he would be just as satisfied with the game if Karissa was completely dressed.

I know this has been brought up before...

Quoted from Tekk Zero:


I hope in the remaining wizards we see a female that is more "normal" and not specifically arousing to the male audience (not every female in fantasy has to be promiscous... we could use positive role models for girls to be what they want to be and not forced on the "be just pretty" stereotype). BTW I am a guy and I am happily hetero, so don't think I am mentally messed up concerning girls. I like pretty girls, but I just think they should be what they want and not what the opposite sex thinks. However, I am not saying that I hate the present female wizards I would just like to see something different in the next one (very hopeful).

And I was heartened to see someone else bring it up, but I thought the topic might deserve its own thread. This is not an actual complaint, but more of a concern.

I am curious to hear whether other players are specifically for or against having scantily clad female wizards. Do you think these things enhance your enjoyment of the game? Or would you be just as happy to see some modestly dressed women as leaders?

I'd also be curious to know whether the developers did this primarily to appeal to the teenaged boy market, or whether they just think these portraits look nice.

Replies:
posted 04-11-02 02:20 PM EDT (US)     1 / 63  
Yes, it does seem rather banal. Your reasoning for why they are doing this also seems accurate, (teenage boy market). One
defense would be that it is the celebration of the female form.
Quite Rubenesque. But considering that weapons and magic would
hardly be slowed down by the flimsy negligee's the women wear, you'd think they'd put on some decent armor. LOL!
posted 04-11-02 02:32 PM EDT (US)     2 / 63  
I do not, and have never bought a game because there was a scantily clad woman pictured in it. I buy games because they are good games. I would have to say that pictures don't attract or detract me from a game, but they add nice flavor to the game. I think there should be a variety of wizards. Some use their "charm" to get their power. Others could have a powerful and persuasive voice to get what they want done. And others could be just plain powerful in magic/fighting. The first set should be very pleasant to look at since that is what they rely upon (story wise.) The latter ones could look like whatever they need to in order to fit their history and background. This is all just my opinion though....
posted 04-11-02 02:34 PM EDT (US)     3 / 63  
I think a `Ravel` type hag would have fit in nicely.

Crash

posted 04-11-02 02:40 PM EDT (US)     4 / 63  
Excellent points Xenobea. My only response would be that--traditionally--wizards don't wear armor. Juila is a warrior so she has armor.

Out of all the female wizards, only Artica and and Arachna have more sensible clothes.

Maybe they need to toss in a spry, bare chested dark elf?

posted 04-11-02 02:53 PM EDT (US)     5 / 63  
Actually, having such large numbers of images of scantily clad females (all the wizards! sheesh!), decreases my enjoyment of the game... If the developer's had moral qualms about calling the game's powers 'Gods', instead changing them to 'Spirits', where were those morals when it came to the portraits of the female wizards? I mean whatever, AOW2 will certainly be an incredible game, but if I were the AOW team I think I would be kind of embarrassed... *shrug*

Solemn

Edit: Incidentally, I'm not out to be a Puritan here, but all the female wizards? Come on...

[This message has been edited by Solemn (edited 04-11-2002 @ 02:55 PM).]

posted 04-11-02 03:10 PM EDT (US)     6 / 63  
Karrisa's face is truly hideous.

To be fair wouldn't girls want all the men to be Abercrombie models or something?


"I have curly pubic hair. If I don't gel it down, it puffs up into a miniature afro and looks rediculous." -Kman
posted 04-11-02 03:14 PM EDT (US)     7 / 63  
It looks like another case of the chainmail bikini syndrome... but I'm sure the target group will love it.
The contrast is even more silly if you realise that, from what I've seen of the male wizards, most are sensibly dressed.

Oh, I do find it silly that the dryad had to be dressed up...

ffbj, none of those women is even slightly Rubenesque.


Angel Jayhawk
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I believe violence will only increase the cycle of violence. — The Dalai Lama
posted 04-11-02 03:18 PM EDT (US)     8 / 63  
I like the portraits. I would rather have an attractive female representation than a plain one. If females would like attractive males thats cool too. Remember this is fantasy On the other hand, if you are looking for a wizard that looks like you, then I would agree there should be a little more variety. Since most games have an evil looking guy with a beard, I am usually taken care of. If I want to play a female character, I like them to be sexy. Not indecent, my kids watch me play after all, but something nice to look at. I think that goes for most of the male market, not just teens.

They aren't doing anything different than anybody else in the entertainment industry. Sex sells, thats not exactly news to anyone.

posted 04-11-02 03:35 PM EDT (US)     9 / 63  
Well the game developers are male, most of the players are male...so it was pretty obvious the female wizards would be like they are. We just have to live with it, us female players that is.

Without those horny teenage boys, there wouldn't be enough people to buy these games.


- All you need is love -

The Wizards of Creation

posted 04-11-02 03:43 PM EDT (US)     10 / 63  
And here we see again how different the morale in different countries is. (but in fact it is dropping fast everywhere)
Just as an example (at least 5 years ago) in a german computergame could be nude girls running around and it would be free for 12 year old people, but if there would be much blood and violence it would get banned, (UT is bannend in germany for example), but in america it is ( after my knowledge) the other way round, you could start brutal masacres in games as long as all womens are clothed in the game... and there we see... ahem sorry but I lost my thought.
But I think the basic idea is clear= each people see it different.
The difference between america and europe is sometimes bigger than we think, if we look at religion and morale.
I for myself like the Female Wizards, but it wouldn΄t disturb me if some would wear robes, or some would be older.
But I don΄t like it that the gods are now called spirits.
I think it is stupid if it was done because of religous scruple, but is is not as tragic for me. I don`t like it cause I know what it will become in the german version.
Spirit could mean more things in english but translated to german it is Geist, and that is usually only used in the meaning of Ghost. If you don`t know what I mean. think of worshiping spectres or wraiths.
posted 04-11-02 03:51 PM EDT (US)     11 / 63  

Quoted from Andalakus:

(UT is bannend in germany for example)

I have been a member of an international Unreal Tournament team for two years and this is the first I have ever heard of this.

Quoted from Queen Elquein
:

Without those horny teenage boys, there wouldn't be enough people to buy these games

Hey ! Dont forget us horny older guys

I would like to have seen a vairation from the Vilest hag to the Seductive Enchantress as I think this would have fit the game world better.

Crash

[This message has been edited by Sir Crashalot (edited 04-11-2002 @ 03:56 PM).]

posted 04-11-02 04:05 PM EDT (US)     12 / 63  
Didn't they change it to spirits cause they felt it sounded as well as fit the game better?

I feel as long as the face suits the race, and the garb the wizards style, anything goes ('cept full frontal nudity...*ahem*). Karissa needs to be scantily clad because...

Quote:

She appears unto men as a scantily dressed, voluptuous woman with flaming red hair. Undisciplined men who behold her beauty will leave their allegiance in hope to pursue their boiling lusts

I'm guessing she'll have a seduce ability, or something like that.


"Count no man happy until he is dead"
-Solon
posted 04-11-02 04:07 PM EDT (US)     13 / 63  
They are wizards, so couldn't they just cast "cosmagic surgury" on themselves.

However, I sure do not want there to be excuses for the females like, they cast "Cosmagic Implants" on themsleves and there boobs grew.

BTW- I know how to make it fair for the ladies! Just put my portrait in for the men! NOW THERE IS SOME HOT STUFF!

Quoted from Queen Elquein:

Without those horny teenage boys, there wouldn't be enough people to buy these games.

Well queeny, what about those horny teenage girls!


"I have curly pubic hair. If I don't gel it down, it puffs up into a miniature afro and looks rediculous." -Kman
posted 04-11-02 05:29 PM EDT (US)     14 / 63  
As long as there are no naked girls on the cover of the box, I'm ok. I hardly believe someone would buy a game because he has seen a naked woman in one of the screenshots...

Btw, I read somewhere that the group of people that buys most games are between ages 25-30, and not teenagers.

And I must say that I feel for you germans. How many games has been banned in Germany, hundreds?

[This message has been edited by Magog (edited 04-11-2002 @ 05:35 PM).]

posted 04-11-02 05:49 PM EDT (US)     15 / 63  
Don`t know.
Sometimes the english version is bannend, but the german version is changed( Half-Life: Mariens=Robots, no blood, no bodys). It is not really bannend, the german word is "indiziert", it means it does no longer lie free in shops, but it is avaible for 18 (Not really cause "indizierte" games are no longer in the shops, but if they were you could buy them if you are 18)
It is not a big problem, because the games aren`t bannend if they are released, it could take month or even years, and someone has to make an application.(Blood2 is very violence, but nobody has ever made an application to bann it...)
But Quake 3 for example was only avaible for 5 days in shops! But if you want a game you could easily order it, or buy it somewhere else.
posted 04-11-02 07:23 PM EDT (US)     16 / 63  
Why are the female wizards not wearing armor? Because they are wizards. Wizards are not supposed to be front line warriors. None of the male wizards are wearing armor either. Both male and female Heroes wear appropriate amounts of armor.

Why are female wizards less dressed than the amles? Because the artist is a guy. The art in AoW2 definitely does NOT represent a marketing ploy, it is simply representative of what was in the mind of the artist... so now you know something about Len. Note that the game could very easily have had fewer (or no) female wizards, but instead they represent 50% of the roster.

Whether all of them are scantily clad is a personal opinion. Personally, I only find a couple of them to look like they were intended to be 'provocative'. You'll also spend 10x as much time looking at their smaller, face-only portraits.

As for the "morality"... I find it laughable that portraits of women in a state of dress that you could easily see in a public place (the pool/beach for Karissa, just about anywhere for the rest) could be considered amoral. That's a very bad thing in the US culture which dates back to our puritanical roots... The human body is evil, but cutting people in half is quality entertainment. You can curse like a sailor while torturing someone on TV, but a bare breast will cause an uproar... sad, really.

As for male clothing in aow2, I wanted my hero picture to feature me bare-chested in a Fabio-like pose, but that was veto'd by virtually everyone, so there ya go... start the petition now.


Josh Farley
Programmer
Triumph Studios
posted 04-11-02 07:43 PM EDT (US)     17 / 63  
Well, if there is an Archon female wizard, I would hope she is properly clothed in a long white gown/robe (I wouldn't want her to be ugly, but I like the "pure" look). I like the female wizards (Serena's my favorite), but Karrissa (sp?) looks like she belongs in Playboy magazine or something. And what's up with all those old and wrinkled male wizards?

"There are the malcontents, and do not underestimate them, for they are legion!"--Julius Caesar
"King of kings, ruling over kings"--motto of the last dynasty of the Eastern Roman Empire

[This message has been edited by Photios (edited 04-11-2002 @ 07:43 PM).]

posted 04-11-02 07:51 PM EDT (US)     18 / 63  
I'm also glad that Triumph didn't give in for the PC crowds on this one. I mean women have been portrayed in scant clothes(or naked) in Art for centuries so that's nothing new. I have a big painting in my living room with an Old man looking like one of those Wizards(in fact some say he was the basis for Gandalf in LOTR) and two naked women in a boat. It's not the original of course since it hangs in the National Museum in Helsinki .

Here in Sweden almost every series have naked people and sex so we are pretty used to it. I personally prefer watching a nice pair of boobs to men but tastes differ of course. And according to my female pals it seems most females think women do look better nude than men but also there tastes can differ.

BM

posted 04-11-02 09:01 PM EDT (US)     19 / 63  
Personally I think a variety of pictures for leaders would have been excellent. I guess what I still don't get is why the females are young and beautiful and there is only 1 of the 6 males who actually looks close to the age of the females (and the rest look to be old geezers). Frankly, go ahead and have one seductive female like Karissa, but why nearly all of them? IMO, I think Artica is reasonable.

Probably (unless they are messed up mentally) most people like good looking people--- with me being one of them. My only problem with the AOWII female wizards is that ALL of them are young and beautiful. Please tell me I am wrong to say there is a big discontinuity between the females and males (I dare you to say that Yaka is the most handsome guy you have ever seen. ) The men are old geezers and the women are young super models. I would have only raised my eyebrow to the fact that Karrisa is wearing scantily clothes if the male wizards were in some way similar in fashion (at least this would seem more balanced. BTW I am happily hetero, not a homo! ), but with all the extreme divergences of the sexes makes a statement. A bad statement... one that says that female wizards have to resort to seduction and the male wizards to wisdom or leadership. Jeesh! Women are actually smart (surpise!!!). I think Triumph should have been more even handed.

The argument about the cosmagic surgery thing making the females look beautiful seems so far out and improbable. Why would the female wizards make themselves young and gorgeous and the male wizards old and bland? I can't imagine a guy would not pass up having the body of Arnold Schwarzenegger for some old fart of a body. Maybe I am wrong and there are guys out there who like to look really old, rather than be young and strong.

I am slightly comforted to see that the root cause of this matter wasn't just a marketing ploy and was more a less Lennart Sas drawing his fantasy world.

BTW maybe in the release of the game, the devs would change their minds and reicorporate some of the old AOW hand drawn hero portraits. From what I see of some of the pics of the AOWII wizards, it would not seem outlandish or out of tastes to put them in AOWII.

posted 04-11-02 09:34 PM EDT (US)     20 / 63  
Well, the women just need me to fill in for the unnatractive men!

I STILL sat that karrissas face is BUTT-UGLY!


"I have curly pubic hair. If I don't gel it down, it puffs up into a miniature afro and looks rediculous." -Kman

[This message has been edited by Lord Devon (edited 04-11-2002 @ 09:35 PM).]

posted 04-11-02 09:39 PM EDT (US)     21 / 63  
Don't confuse Heroes with Wizards. They have separate portraits, and very different looks. Heroes are soldiers. Wizards are immortal beings of great magical power. Their portraits are designed to relate that situation.

As for age... Merlin, Marinus, Yaka, and (maybe, hard to be sure) the Death Male Wizard, are all fairly young males, at least as young-looking as the majority of the females IMO. Additionally, if I were to guess, I'd put most of the female wizards in their 30s, which is considered "washed up" for a supermodel.

I would assume that the Wizards of AoW2, being immortal, can choose at what age they wish to appear.

On a side note, I often play a female character in RPGs. I tend to think of the main character in the 3rd person, as someone I'm trying to help... And when I do pick a female character I'm going to be staring at for 30+ hours of gameplay, I pick the pretty one. When I play a male character, I never pick the ugly guy... maybe a weird looking one, but not the dog.

And like I said, you'll see the face-only portrait 90% of the time, so I wouldn't obsess too much on this issue...


Josh Farley
Programmer
Triumph Studios
posted 04-11-02 09:46 PM EDT (US)     22 / 63  
AAAAAAUUUUUUGHGHHHGHGHGGH!!!!!

I have to stare at Karissas face for 30+ hours!

-The horror!


"I have curly pubic hair. If I don't gel it down, it puffs up into a miniature afro and looks rediculous." -Kman
posted 04-11-02 09:50 PM EDT (US)     23 / 63  
Tekk: Nimue's pretty ok to IMO.

Actually, I hope that what Josh said about a range of people is something along the lines of what AOW was. You know, how we had Sister Theresa, erm... the nice dwarven healer priest who was RayB's wife... and that spread with each race getting a distinctive hero.

It certainly seems headed that way, with those screenshots of that Tigran hero popping out to offer his services. He looks Tigranish to me

posted 04-11-02 09:51 PM EDT (US)     24 / 63  
Hey now... we've only seen the wizard portraits, what about the unit photos. I mean we haven't seen everything... Why right here next to me in one of my pooter magazines is an ad with a pic of a seriously beefed up Tigran with no shirt on. So its not just women. If I can find the ad I might be able to take a picture with my digital camera ( scanners busted) and post it up for you guys.. er gals.

As to the above question, I don't think it really matters how much skin I get to see. The enjoyablity I gain from the game out-ways the amount of scantily clad women by far. So no I don't think it really has too much infulence on the market for the game.

posted 04-11-02 09:52 PM EDT (US)     25 / 63  

Quoted from Josh:

On a side note, I often play a female character in RPGs. I tend to think of the main character in the 3rd person, as someone I'm trying to help... And when I do pick a female character I'm going to be staring at for 30+ hours of gameplay, I pick the pretty one.

LOL! You should talk to Angel Spineman.... :P


posted 04-11-02 10:43 PM EDT (US)     26 / 63  
Not Rubenesque? Considering the times they are quite the same.
Just because they are not fat? In Peter Paul Reubens time hefty women were considered attractive. So when you factor in our predilictions now, they are almost the same. Not to wear armor because they are wizards, that's fine. But they all look
as if they are ready for bed. A number of them have that come hither look. I have no problem with it really, but let's call a spade a spade.
posted 04-11-02 11:01 PM EDT (US)     27 / 63  

Quoted from Josh:

Don't confuse Heroes with Wizards. They have separate portraits, and very different looks. Heroes are soldiers. Wizards are immortal beings of great magical power. Their portraits are designed to relate that situation.

No, I was meaning in general to add the old hero AOW portraits into AOWII's hero portrait package. I wasn't trying to be specific. I was kinda getting off topic here. Just a little whim of mine to have the old portraits in the new game, but I think I understand why they really can't.

Quoted from Generic Thought:

As to the above question, I don't think it really matters how much skin I get to see. The enjoyablity I gain from the game out-ways the amount of scantily clad women by far. So no I don't think it really has too much infulence on the market for the game.

I don't think the issue is on how much a person is going to enjoy the game or how successful the game is. The issue, for me anyways, is the discontinuity of the male and female LEADER portraits. I can't speak for the AOWII hero portraits, because I have not see them.

Quoted from Josh:

I would assume that the Wizards of AoW2, being immortal, can choose at what age they wish to appear.

You are hitting near in support to the point I mentioned earlier about the Arnold. This sounds deceptively like the cosmagic surgery argument. So, please don't tell me ALL the males want to look bland and ALL the females want to look beautiful. You would find a variety of looks and ages, not a stereotype for each sex. IDIC = Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations (Star Trek... couldn't resist the urge to say that )

Quoted from Josh:

And like I said, you'll see the face-only portrait 90% of the time, so I wouldn't obsess too much on this issue...

Hmmm... what relevance does 10% of the time have. It is the ideology of the stereotypes. Even the small hero portraits will have the young female look and the old geezer male look. My issue is the lack of variety and the heavy usage of stereotypes for the leader portraits. I won't hate playing the game having these stereotypical images, but frankly I am disappointed. That is why I loved the variety of the original AOW hero/leader portraits. There was a variety, which I liked a lot. I think Triumph will do a good job with the hero portraits, but from what I can see the leader portraits are disappointing.

Quoted from Josh:

As for age... Merlin, Marinus, Yaka, and (maybe, hard to be sure) the Death Male Wizard, are all fairly young males, at least as young-looking as the majority of the females IMO. Additionally, if I were to guess, I'd put most of the female wizards in their 30s, which is considered "washed up" for a supermodel

Not really Josh. Look at the bodies that Len drew up for the females. The faces might allude that they are not in their 20s, but if you cover up the faces I see beautiful bodies. BTW you really think Yaka looks young? I agree with you about Merlin and Marinus however looking as young as the females. However, Merlin is not one of the 12 wizards I had in mind which I have talked about in this discussion (it would be a horrible thought to have to play one of the old geezers in the AOWII camapaign). The Death Male Mage, however still applies to the geezer look (he is dead and a skeleton. Arachna, however, who is part of the death sphere looks perfectly human like---pale, but still human).

Quoted from Josh:

On a side note, I often play a female character in RPGs. I tend to think of the main character in the 3rd person, as someone I'm trying to help... And when I do pick a female character I'm going to be staring at for 30+ hours of gameplay, I pick the pretty one. When I play a male character, I never pick the ugly guy... maybe a weird looking one, but not the dog.

hmmm... then why is Yaka in the first place looking the way he is if he is so bland (and IMO ugly) and we have Serena or Nimue who is beautiful. I am still thinking stereotypes. So if you need to sum up my opinion on the leader portraits think STEREOTYPE. Am I wrong to think diversity is bad?

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 04-12-2002 @ 01:54 AM).]

posted 04-11-02 11:05 PM EDT (US)     28 / 63  

Quoted from Blackmane:

Tekk: Nimue's pretty ok to IMO.

Very funny

posted 04-11-02 11:34 PM EDT (US)     29 / 63  
Wow, people will complain about the silliest things. No matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone.
posted 04-11-02 11:46 PM EDT (US)     30 / 63  
At least they're not complaining about teleporters.....

posted 04-12-02 00:05 AM EDT (US)     31 / 63  

"Count no man happy until he is dead"
-Solon
posted 04-12-02 01:51 AM EDT (US)     32 / 63  

Quoted from IamMeeks:

Wow, people will complain about the silliest things. No matter how hard you try, you can't please everyone.

What is so silly about it IamMeeks? Of course they can't please everyone. However, if they wanted to be safe, they should have had a variety and not limited themselves to stereotypes. IMO that is why the hero portraits from the original AOW are so good. You could have a variety...the good and the bad... the ugly and the beautiful... the old and the young... and so on. In my case, the variety of features the original AOW allowed me to use is why I am still playing it since I got it back in 1998. I just don't think they are doing any favors to the game by having these stereotypes. Give me your reason why it is so silly to voice my concerns about this issue. I am all ears.

[This message has been edited by Tekk Zero (edited 04-12-2002 @ 01:54 AM).]

posted 04-12-02 02:07 AM EDT (US)     33 / 63  
well, i am not sure why everyone is so obsessed with the dress of the female wizards. what actually bothered me is that out of 4 evil wizards, 3 are females. and out of 4 good wizards, 3 are males. the neutral ones are quite equal.

are females more evil than males??? are males more holy than females??? is that another negative stereotype?

enough said, a game is just a game. i won't go further to argue about this.

note: among all female wizards only artica is beautiful. serena is very disappointing. i thought that she'd be a male from earlier screen shots. it's only after i see the entire portrait that i realize it's a female wizard. nimue is okay. if i play the elves, i want julia's portrait, not serena's.

edit: most girls are very nice, no??? they are certainly not evil, right? =) gotta go now.

[This message has been edited by FrenchKisser (edited 04-12-2002 @ 02:09 AM).]

posted 04-12-02 02:30 AM EDT (US)     34 / 63  
Yaka ugly? Now you've made him cry! (Glad he's not based on a real person AFAIK)

I don't see it. He looks hard and a bit angry, but I don't see ugly. Arachna definitely does not look entirely human to me. None of the males look bland to me, and most of them look far younger than the common idea of a "Wizard" makes most of us think of.

Good vs Evil: Those numbers don't hold up. The Wizards in AoW2 rarely fall into a "Good" or "Evil" category; their morality is much more grey. Even if you try to force them into one role or the other, the numbers are different, and the sample size so small, that picking it apart for hidden messages seems like a waste of time to me.

Basically, I'd be 1000x more concerned about how women are -treated- in media as opposed to how they are displayed. None of the female characters in AoW2 are treated as anything less than beings of strength and power. They are never treated as weaklings that cannot help themselves, or as sexual objects. They play prominent roles as heroines (and villains) in the story.

The portraits? [shrug] Tell me why it is normal for females to be less clothed than males in almost every aspect of modern society. Why society considers the female body beautiful and sensual, and the male body ugly and/or funny. Why aging men are more likely to be considered attractive than aging women. And these are all opinions commonly shared by men -and- women.

Us? We're just making a game.


Josh Farley
Programmer
Triumph Studios

[This message has been edited by Josh AoW (edited 04-12-2002 @ 02:38 AM).]

posted 04-12-02 02:36 AM EDT (US)     35 / 63  
Well said Josh

"Count no man happy until he is dead"
-Solon
posted 04-12-02 05:04 AM EDT (US)     36 / 63  

Quoted from Andalakus:

But I don΄t like it that the gods are now called spirits.


They are? How silly...

Quoted from Devon:

They are wizards, so couldn't they just cast "cosmagic surgury" on themselves.


Then why don't the male wizards do the same?

Quoted from Josh:

I find it laughable that portraits of women in a state of dress that you could easily see in a public place


True, especially in Europe
However, it seems biased towards the women, the men seem to be left out

Quote:

On a side note, I often play a female character in RPGs.


Same here, for most of the same reason.

Quote:

None of the female characters in AoW2 are treated as anything less than beings of strength and power


Very true

Quote:

Tell me why it is normal for females to be less clothed than males in almost every aspect of modern society.


Because it's still driven mainly by males.

Quote:

Why society considers the female body beautiful and sensual, and the male body ugly and/or funny.


Because most males consider admitting another male is beautiful means they are gay. Women don't have the same hangup.

Quote:

Why aging men are more likely to be considered attractive than aging women.


I think that only goes for those men that were attractive in the first place, as I don't really think beerbellies, bald heads or droopy cheeks are all that attractive
As for older women, do tell me what's wrong with, say Gatherine Deneuve?

Come visit the Library, Josh, if you really want to discuss that particular issue.


Barman, I don't think it's the way the women are depicted as such, but the 'double standard' in depicting them compared to the men.

Quoted from ffbj:

In Peter Paul Reubens time hefty women were considered attractive.


And that's why they are called 'rubenesque' not becuase they were nude


Angel Jayhawk
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posted 04-12-02 05:28 AM EDT (US)     37 / 63  
I only thing I can think of is something I read in a fantasy book. Men who are old are considered venerable and wise while women who are old are called crones.

Similarly, men who are young are considered immature while women who are young are considered to be more mature and intelligent.

posted 04-12-02 05:34 AM EDT (US)     38 / 63  
As one of the small minority of female gamers I wasn't surprised at how they looked or their state of undress. It's something we have to put up with if we want to play the games ...

No-one's going to aim a game at a minority so I think I'm going to be waiting a long time for a good game with near-naked hunks as the protagonists *sigh*


'Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened' Moving Pictures
posted 04-12-02 06:54 AM EDT (US)     39 / 63  
Start signing that petition for my Fabio-esque hero portrait now!

Hmm, no signatures... sigh, veto'd again.


Josh Farley
Programmer
Triumph Studios

[This message has been edited by Josh AoW (edited 04-12-2002 @ 06:55 AM).]

posted 04-12-02 07:47 AM EDT (US)     40 / 63  

Quoted from a fellow Canuck:

note: among all female wizards only artica is beautiful...

Heheh, wonder if that preference is a Canadian thing... land of ice and snow and pasty white skin!


Cay
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