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Topic Subject: Undead Demon vs. Highmen Valkyrie - A Closer Look
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posted 08-25-02 12:54 PM EDT (US)   
In our last "Closer Look," we debated the merits of the Orc Assassin vs. Halfling Rogue.

Today, we'll take a closer look at two the most powerful level three fliers, the Highmen Valkyrie vs. Undead Demon.

Lets take a closer look:

/85 7 3 4 5 8 36

Abilities: Charge, Fearless, Flying, Holy Immunity, Holy Strike, Strike, Vision II.

vs.

/105 6 6 4 4 10 30

Abilities: Death Immunity, Fearless, Fire Immunity, Fire Strike, Flying, Poison Immunity, Regeneration, Strike, Vision II.


ANALYSIS:

COST:
The Valkyrie is significantly cheaper than the Demon, costing only 85 gold to install and produce, compared to the Demon's 105 price tag.

Edge: Valkyrie

MOVEMENT:
Both units have true flight with no ranged attack, which means they must engage in melee. However, the Valkyrie has 36 movement points (MP) to the Demon's 30.

Edge: Valkyrie

PHYSICAL STATS:
Overall, the Demon is generally a "tougher" unit than the Valkyrie. The demon has strong attack and damage ratings of 6, with a slightly lower than average defense and resistance of 4, making it especially vulnerable to ranged and magic attacks. However, the demon has 10 hit points.

The Valkyrie's 7 attack is higher than a Demon's 6, but it lacks a Demon's follow-through with only 3 damage. A slightly lower than average defense of 4 and average resistance of 5. The Valkyrie has only 8 hit points, two less than a Demon's.

Edge: Demon

MELEE ATTACK:
The Demon boasts an awesome melee attack that really packs a punch. It's high attack of 6 hits often and its 6 damage hits hard. A demon can easily kill a low-level unit in one turn. Plus, that demonic growl is one of the meanest sounding attacks.

The Demon has fire strike, which isn't that great of an ability, but it can kill a unit that has been knocked down to 1-2 hit points at the beginning of the next turn.
However, the demon does not have a magic strike so it can't hit units with physical invulnerability (which is a rare ability).

The Valkyrie's 7 attacks means it usually strike an opponent, but that opponent is usually around to hit back the next turn because of its pathetic 3 damage rating.

The Valkyrie relies on its Holy Strike to give it the edge in combat, which on a successful hit gives the victim Vertigo (-2 ATK & DMG). The Valkyrie's Holy Strike also means it can hit anything; even physically invulnerable units.

Unfortunately, inflicting Vertigo isn't a given, and the Valkyrie's lower damage means its enemy is usually hitting back, and usually inflicting damage. It's a close call--high damage vs holy strike--but I'd rather kill a unit quickly than hope to Vertigo it.

Edge: Demon

SPECIAL ABILITIES:
The Valkyrie is Fearless, has Holy Immunity and Vision II.

On the other hand, the Demon enjoys a host of immunities, similar to its undead comrades, however, it is not a true "undead" unit, so it can't be turned. The Demon has Fire Immunity, Death Immunity, Poison Immunity and Vision II.

However, the ability that really sets the demon apart is Regeneration. All it needs to do is survive a battle by one hit point and it's back at full strength the next day.

Most importantly, because it lasts longer in the field, the Demon earns silver and gold medals extremely fast, making it even tougher.

Edge: Demon

CONCLUSION:
While the Valkyrie may be the best of the "Good" level three flying units, it pales in comparison to the Demon. It's low defense and low HP means it dies quickly in battle. And even if its only severely injured, it needs healing the next round or its toast.

The Demon hits hard and hits often. It can take a good beating with 10 HP, and it's good-to-go every single turn because of its regeneration. While it may be more expensive than the Valkyrie, its well worth the extra gold because it's like you get a brand new unit each turn; it not unusual to see silver and gold medaled demons flying about.

It would be interesting to toss the Nordic Glow into this discussion, but we'll leave that for another day. Or feel free to add the Nordic Glow to the discussion below. I enjoy debating the pros and cons of unit balancing.

[This message has been edited by Angel Draco (edited 08-25-2002 @ 01:00 PM).]

Replies:
posted 08-25-02 01:15 PM EDT (US)     1 / 41  
This is nice stuff! You should feature a weekly column on such comparisons alternating between AoW1 and AoW2 units!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
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Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
posted 08-25-02 07:29 PM EDT (US)     2 / 41  
The Valkyrie doesn't need to be terribly strong. The various units of each race compliment each-other; the Valkyrie is a kill-the-spectre type unit.

You want to deal with the Demon in melee, bring an Astra.

posted 08-26-02 12:55 PM EDT (US)     3 / 41  
Thanks swolte! Too bad the Highmen have to field a level 4 unit to deal with the Undead's level 3.
posted 08-26-02 01:41 PM EDT (US)     4 / 41  
Well the highmen race is very near perfection already, so little weaker lv3 flier than the undead have, doesn't bother me at all.
posted 08-26-02 02:01 PM EDT (US)     5 / 41  
Yes, Angel Draco, *but* an Astra can beat the *stuffing* out of a Demon. In fact, it can handle two, together with it's Healing ability as well as its high stats and hit points.

The Astra is arguably the best melee unit in the game, since it can choose its enemies because it flies.

posted 08-26-02 02:03 PM EDT (US)     6 / 41  
No one has anything to say on behalf of the poor Nordic Glow?
posted 08-26-02 02:18 PM EDT (US)     7 / 41  
It looks cool and round and has nice attack sound?

I've seen nordic glows beat demons and valkyries, but still, I'd rather take either of those two than a nordic glow. It has a decent defence and physical protection, but still, it's too weak for my taste, and it's not that good scout either, as it doesn't have vision like demons and valkyries and most other fliers have. But of course, it's wrong to say that a flying unit is weak, as flying is a darn powerful skill. But it doesn't get used so often, as the frosties have plenty of other good units to build, like yetis and ice drakes.

But why don't you be a dear and post the stats for the little Glow like you have done for Valkyrie and the Demon. It would help those who have forgotten what the little rascal looks like.


- All you need is love -

The Wizards of Creation

[This message has been edited by Queen Elquein (edited 08-26-2002 @ 02:21 PM).]

posted 08-26-02 04:03 PM EDT (US)     8 / 41  
Excelent review, Draco!
Looking foreward to more closer looks!

Tell me, Lucifer Morningstar... Ask yourselves, all of you... What power would Hell have if those here imprisoned were not able to dream of Heaven?

[This message has been edited by Falagar (edited 08-27-2002 @ 12:46 PM).]

posted 08-26-02 09:03 PM EDT (US)     9 / 41  
What a travesty it is when the Lizardmen's little dragon, the Green Wyvern, is left out.

Green Wyvern:
Attack 4
Damage 5
Defence 4
Resistance 6
Hit 12
Movement 36
Cost 98

I'm not even going to bother comparing Demons and Wyverns. Poison Immunity really clenches any doubt I might have about Demons being able to whoop up on the Wyvern. But the Valkyre on the other hand...

First, let's just do it stat-wise. (I actually had a bit more math here, but things looked too... mathy, so things have been abriged).

Wyvern is a pretty tough little unit, for a flier. Standard 4 Def, but with 12 hit points... 12 hit points. This means that Valk would need about 6 succesful hits to kill it.

The Wyvern will only hit the Valkyre half the time, but who cares? It's only gonna take 2.66 hits to kill the Wyvern on average.

Admittedly, Vertigo is going to land an awful lot more than Poison. Still, Poison really hits where it hurts the worst; the Damage stat. Bringing the Valkyre down from 3 to 2 damage basically neutralizes it.


The Green Wyvern is a really great little unit in terms of straight up killing power. It certainly isn't as tough as the demon, but it's certainly tougher than the Valk, doesn't cost significantly more, and has the same movement. Also, with the hitpoint difference, it might actually give the Green Wyvern a chance of not gettin torn down by archers before it gets a chance to strike when such occasions arise.

Demon - A fighting Unit.
Green Wyvern - A lightweight (faster ) demon.
Valkyre - A flying holy strike machine.

There just isn't any way to talk about powerful level three flyers without talking about the Green Wyvern, IMO.


---------------------
psychosisc@mail2world.com
posted 08-26-02 10:16 PM EDT (US)     10 / 41  
What about an Astra vs. a Reaper? I'm almost 100% sure Invoke Death works against flying units.
posted 08-27-02 00:48 AM EDT (US)     11 / 41  
"What about an Astra vs. a Reaper? I'm almost 100% sure Invoke Death works against flying units."

I'm quite sure it doesn't, considering that I can decimite undead armies, Reapers included, with but a single Gold Dragon.

Now, before anybody goes hog wild about dragons, we all know that a ranged flying unit, which a dragon is, can kill any number of units that are neither ranged nor flying so long as those units don't have immunity (Holy, in this case). Now, if the Invoke Death ability worked on fliers, there would be something that the Reaper could do to fight back against the Dragon - but it doesn't, and I suspect that that isn't because the Invoke Death ability would work but the AI is too stupid to use it!

posted 08-27-02 03:47 AM EDT (US)     12 / 41  
I think the ratio of speculation to data is getting a bit high here. I'm about to drop quite a bit of data on you, but first, a few comments.

Question C: Hidden attack values for effects (compared to resistance):

Lightning = 6
Poison, fire, death and holy = 4
Cold = 3
Entangle = 7
Dominate, invoke death = 6
Possess, charm = 5
Seduce, web = 4

Note that not all of these are precisely known. Some of the effects listed as 4 may only be 3. Has anyone tested this further? Even if poison is actually 3, it would only be 10% less likely to land than vertigo - 30% instead of 40% against a demon.

Draco: I can't remember using turn undead - isn't it a touch ability? "True Undead" or not, I think the reason demons can't be turned is because they fly

Emperor Bone: Again, invoke death is a touch ability; I'm quite sure it does not work.

Beren: Actually, I've never seen the AI use invoke death. I've been in several FC battles with 4-6 reapers.

Beren: Isn't your astra comparison a bit unfair? *Any* level 4 flier could take out a demon. That's why they're level 4. One nice thing about astras is dispel, but it's not that useful until you get dispel III at gold. We've been looking at unenhanced demons, but in reality it would just depend on their respective enchantments. If you didn't take earth spheres your astras will crash and burn against stoneskinned demons. Well they're immune to the burning but they'll crash. Unless they had medals, then you could gain an advantage with dispel (using dispel I is basically giving them free hits). In one game (Banned, XL) I pumped out an 8-stack of astras too far away from my leader to enchant them, then lost them to a fully enchanted demon + hero (the demon was solely responsible for at least 3 of those deaths). Also, I think a red dragon is the best overall flier, assuming identical enchantments (of course, that may not always be the case - the astras do have dispel, and the dragons' defense maxes out at 10 more easily).

[This message has been edited by Species8471 (edited 08-27-2002 @ 09:30 PM).]

posted 08-27-02 06:37 AM EDT (US)     13 / 41  
I would have thought that 7 attack + holy strike would be a bit more useful than people have speculated. But, like I was saying, why think, why not just try it?

I did 20 tests with Valks defending and 20 with Demons defending. I believe these tests are more clear-cut and informative than those in the previous thread (rogues vs. assassins). With ranged units that are very close in strength the result is that the defender always wins. Here the results from both sets of 20 were quite similar:

8 Demons vs. 8 Valkyries (Valks defending): Demons win 80% of the time (16/20). Here are the numbers of surviving demons for each victory:

1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 4, 5, 3, 3, 4, 5, 1, 3, 1, 5 (average 3.25)

Also, the surviving demons had, on average, 6.94 HP remaining. 37% of them had vertigo.

Losses: Valks surviving: 3, 2, 2, 1 (average: 2; average HP: 4)

------------------------------------------------------------

8 Valkyries vs. 8 Demons (Demons defending): Demons win 85% of the time (17/20).

Victories: Demons surviving: 5, 3, 5, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5, 4, 3, 2, 3, 2, 1, 3, 4, 6 (average 3.41)

Average HP: 7.07
Vertigo: 33%

Losses: Valks surviving: 3, 1, 3 (average: 2.33, average HP: 5.14)

------------------------------------------------------------

It seems vertigo must have an attack value of 3. If it were 4, it would work 40% of the time on demons. Since each of these demons has lost, on average, 3 HP (more than one hit), we should see over 40% get vertigo. Instead we see over 30% but less than 40%, which is consistent with an attack value of 3. However, this does not take into account that some of the time when vertigo "succeeds" it will be against a demon that is already vertigoed. Also, wounded demons get attacked first, and all vertigoed demons are wounded, and have 2 defense. So a lot more vertigoed demons get killed than non-vertigoed demons, even if the AI doesn't preferentially attack handicapped units (anyone seen it do that)? Both these factors would make the attack value seem smaller. To be completely accurate I'd have to watch each hit individually. Has anyone done this (with at least 100 hits)?

As for the Highmen being near-perfect, I'll take scads of immunities (including poison) and regeneration over holy immunity and true seeing. The Highmen have turn undead and a diplomatic advantage (polite, not wary, with Humans), and a lvl 4 unit with more-obvious uses, but they also have a weaker lvl 3 flier. And they have to rely on their fliers (or eagle riders, fairies, or siege equiptment - not particularly good options) to take walled cities, whereas the undead have a ram that's a tank. Titans are good - too good - but they're no good in sieges without rams. Avengers will get eaten alive by almost any lvl 3 - mobility is nice but you have to be able to do some damage when you get there. The Highmen are the Achilles' Heel of the Undead, but against any other race I'd probably take the Undead over the Highmen.

I don't play Lizards much, so I was surprised to find that they have a more powerful lvl 3 flier than the Highmen, who have some of the most powerful units in the game (in exchange for only being able to use good units). Green Wyverns usually win against Valkyries, but fare quite poorly against Demons.

8 Valkyries vs. 8 Green Wyverns (Wyverns defending): Wyverns win 80% of the time.

Victories: Wyverns Surviving: 5, 3, 4, 1, 4, 4, 1, 6, 3, 4, 6, 1, 2, 4, 1, 1 (average: 3.13)

Average HP: 6.44
Vertigo: 34%

Losses: Valks surviving: 4, 1, 1, 2 (average: 2)

Average HP: 3.13
Poisoned: 38%

------------------------------------------------------------

8 Green Wyverns vs. 8 Valkyries (Valks Defending): Wyverns win 55% of the time.

Victories: Wyverns surviving: 3, 4, 5, 1, 6, 2, 5, 5, 2, 2, 2 (average: 3.36)

Average HP: 7.89
Vertigo: 11%

Losses: Valks Surviving: 2, 2, 2, 1, 3, 1, 1, 1, 3 (average: 1.78)

Average HP: 5.25
Poisoned: 25%

posted 08-27-02 12:37 PM EDT (US)     14 / 41  
Good analysis! Are you going to post your demon vs. wyvern numbers?

At the moment, I'm running two computers -Age of Wonders is on my computer that's imitating a doorstop. As I recall... whenever I'm fighting against someone -AI opponent even, the Nordic Glow seems to be awesomely powerful. As in... I most dread seeing enemies trot out Orc Warlords, but Nordic Glows come in 2nd.

On the flip side, when I have Nordic Glows in my army... they're ok. I mean -they fly around. They bap enemies. They take a bit of a beating, but they just don't seem as powerful and indestructible when they're on my side.


Lord Fell, Master of the Black Hand
posted 08-27-02 02:14 PM EDT (US)     15 / 41  
Comments:

About the Astra: Yes, the Astra is level 4 and a demon is level 3; however, usually it's about one level 4 to two level 3's, and in the Astra-Demon case, I'll bet that one Astra is worth more than two Demons.

About Resistance scores: I was under the impression that it was the attack value of Lightning, Fire, etc. that was the status effect stat. In any event, Invoke Death is really useful against something that is strong enough physically that you likely can't kill it in two hits. I'll bet it's low on the AI priority list. However, I'll bet that the AI will use it if nothing else will work.

posted 08-27-02 06:53 PM EDT (US)     16 / 41  
I said Invoke Death works on flying units because I tried to possess a Reaper with an Incarnate once. They zapped each other about twenty times before the Reaper finally killed it. But then, Incarnates are just floating, not flying...oops.

If this were a poll for worst AoW level 4 unit, I'd vote for the Incarnate. It only manages to possess weak units, in my experience, and you can build stronger units faster and cheaper than an Incarnate. It can't get through walls without help either. I only used Incarnates in one scenario, and I never will again. I like Executioners so much that it makes up for it though. What are Executioner battle statistics? Also, what determines chance of Possess to work? Does Defense decrease it's chance of success or Resistance?

[This message has been edited by Emperor_Bone14 (edited 08-27-2002 @ 06:59 PM).]

posted 08-27-02 10:15 PM EDT (US)     17 / 41  
Emperor_Bone14 unless you know how to use them, you are that incarnates are stupid. However, if you master their use, you will begin to dread them if another human player has them. I see them as one of the best. PI is really good as is possess, especially against the AI.

Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising every time we fall. ~Confucius
Email at: Tekkaman_Zero@hotmail.com 124881677
posted 08-27-02 11:30 PM EDT (US)     18 / 41  
All right, I'll step up to the plate.

The Nordic Glow is a sort of average flying unit - possibly a little better than average. It is capable of taking on any level 1, most level 2's, and a few other level 3 flier and rogue-type units. Physical protection is not as good in AoW1 as in AoW2 because the damage scale is lower - an arrow hit that does 1 damage does 1 damage unless you have immunity. However, the Nordic Glow's host of other immunities do make it useful against units that possess those attack forms.

Without question, the AoW1 flier with the most oomph is the Demon. Personally, I really like the Fairy, which, although weak, also has concealment. They're cheap, too.

posted 08-28-02 04:51 AM EDT (US)     19 / 41  
Quote:
The Valkyrie relies on its Holy Strike to give it the edge in combat, which on a successful hit gives the victim Vertigo (-2 ATK & DMG).

Wrong. Vertigo "gives" -2 attack & -2 defence.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 08-28-02 10:17 AM EDT (US)     20 / 41  
BTW, if anyone wants to check a unit's stats, remember that we have them all listed poste here: http://aow.heavengames.com/units/.

Quoted from Species8471:

Draco: I can't remember using turn undead - isn't it a touch ability? "True Undead" or not, I think the reason demons can't be turned is because they fly

Turn Undead is indeed a touch ability, but if a hero who had a ring granting true flight had the 'Turn' ability or had the Ankh of Life artifact (wich grants Turn Undead II), then in theory that hero could attempt to turn an undead flying unit.

Excellent analysis on the win percentages too! Please share the results of Demon vs. Wyvern as I'm curious myself. The thing that really sets Demons apart is the abilty for them to medal up so quickly b/c of regeneration. Healthy units are effective units. A gold dragon knocked down to 1-3 HP has a lot to fear from a healthy, silver medal demon headed its way.

Quoted from Emperor_Bone14:

If this were a poll for worst AoW level 4 unit, I'd vote for the Incarnate. It only manages to possess weak units, in my experience, and you can build stronger units faster and cheaper than an Incarnate.

I shared your view as well Empeor_Bone, until Frogman, a veteran player, really showed me how devestating the unit can be. Frogman takes the incarnate unit to the next level. Ever razed a power node to produce a Syron and then possessed it with an incarnate? It's easy b/c the Syron has no magic strike.

Ever possessed the AI's high-level hero with an incarnate? Or try casting "Call Hero" and if a hero shows up who is not friendly to your alignment, just possess him. You could continually repeat this process of producing incarnates/possessing heroes until you had an army of heroes (or reached the max number set in the scenario).

Ever advanced an incarnate around the enemy's backfield of level one archers and level 2 cav, moving nearly 75 tiles in a single turn while wiping out the entire army in the process? You can do that because when the incarnate possess a unit with movement points, they can use those movement points to move onto another enemy and kill them, then take those movement points and move on to another enemy....and so on.

For further discussion of Level 4 units, check this old thread. But I don't want this thread to turn into a discussion on incarnates.

The Nordic glow is a fine neutral flyer, and IMO better than the wyvern b/c of it's immunites and higher defense and resistance. Cast bless, or stoneskin on a silver medal nordic glow and it's up to 8 or possibly 9 defense (with both bless and stoneskin) along with physical protection. That's a helluva tough unit that can now fly around and take out small towns single handedly.

It also depends on the map; if you're playing a map with lots of alters, a nordic glow is your best friend b/c you can send it in ahead of your troops to "set off" the AI's alter blasts and it can't be hurt.

posted 08-28-02 12:01 PM EDT (US)     21 / 41  
Thanks for the info Draco.
posted 08-28-02 12:58 PM EDT (US)     22 / 41  
A hero with life magic can use Turn Undead without touching...

Tell me, Lucifer Morningstar... Ask yourselves, all of you... What power would Hell have if those here imprisoned were not able to dream of Heaven?
posted 08-28-02 02:08 PM EDT (US)     23 / 41  
An incarnate-possessed Syron... wow! I know about the hero-possessing ability, but...
posted 08-28-02 04:44 PM EDT (US)     24 / 41  
As Falagar already pointed out: There's a Life-Spell 'Turn Undead', but as far as I remember it didn't work on Demons and Hell hounds (I'm not sure though). Dead Reaper didn't work either but I guess that's because of the 10 Resistance

As to the Highmens Immunities: They are absolutely useless. As long as you don't have to fight your allies no one will attack you with holy attacks. Same for the dead immunity of the undead. The only good thing is, that you can set of Altars of this kind whithout regard of your own troups.
The thing that set undeads appart is their poison immunity. Along with a lot of Pestilence Altars or the Spell 'Pestilence Cloud' thats really dangerous.

But then to be honest: The best two level three units are neither Valk nor Demon. I personally prefer giants.
In a fight giant vs demon I wouldn't bet on the demon. Flying is good and right, but against the rocks of giant it's not really good. OK, giant has only def 3, but with 15 HP it still can take a lot of beating. and with 7 damage you normaly can stop the beating before. The only thing the giant is lacking comparing to the demon is the regeneration ability.

Walky

posted 08-29-02 10:20 AM EDT (US)     25 / 41  
Mmmmmm, a couple of simulated battle tests b/w the demon and giant would be interesting.
posted 08-29-02 12:14 PM EDT (US)     26 / 41  
Walky's right, the demon loses pathetically to the Giant. 6 8 vs. 8 battles on FC went like this. The giants won every battle, 5 survived the first battle, 5 the second, 7, 7, 4, and 6 in the next battles. So an average of 6 giants survive. Sorry, demon lovers .
posted 08-29-02 12:56 PM EDT (US)     27 / 41  
8 Demons vs. 8 Wyverns (Wyverns defending): Demons win 85% of the time.

Victories: Demons surviving: 1, 3, 3, 3, 2, 4, 1, 6, 6, 4, 1, 4, 5, 2, 3, 3, 4 (average 3.24)

Losses: Wyverns surviving: 4, 4, 3 (average 3.67)

------------------------------------------------------------

8 Wyverns vs. 8 Demons (Demons defending): Demons win 95% of the time.

Losses: Demons surviving: 3, 4, 6, 3, 2, 5, 5, 5, 1, 4, 2, 4, 2, 5, 3, 4, 2, 1, 5 (average 3.47)

Victories: Wyverns surviving: 5

------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, so I don't have data on how many HP the survivors had because I was tired and that takes much longer to collect. But I think this shows how weak Wyverns are without poison strike. Wyverns are clearly stronger than Valkyries (they usually win even against defending Valks), but against a poison immune unit they do significantly worse than Valks.

Since poison immunity isn't that common, the Wyverns are sunstantially better in most situations. It's hard to say which units are better all around, as they all have their purpose, but if we are only interested in power (ability to win against melee units) I would say:

Demon > Green Wyvern > Valkyrie > Nordic Glow

and these 4 are way above the other 4 lvl 3 fliers.

The Nordic Glow is a bit of an anomaly here since its performance totally depends on the composition of the enemy stack (and enchant weapon). It's great against units that only do physical and/or cold and/or poison and/or fire damage. Though not as good as the demon - even though demons only do half damage they beat Glows 95% of the time, so Demons should be better against Wyverns (they are). The Glow is almost a match for the Wyvern, but it's terrible against Valks (loses 100% of the time) or anything with enchant weapon.

8 Valkyries vs. 8 Glows (Glows Defending): Valks win 100% of the time.

Valks surviving: 2, 6, 3, 2, 4, 1, 5, 2, 4, 6, 7, 3, 3, 6, 4, 6, 4, 4, 2, 5 (average 3.95)

------------------------------------------------------------

8 Demons vs. 8 Glows (Glows defending): Demons win 95% of the time.

Victories: Demons surviving: 4, 4, 5, 6, 4, 4, 2, 3, 3, 5, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 3, 6, 6, 5 (average: 4)

Losses: Glows surviving: 2

------------------------------------------------------------

8 Wyverns vs. 8 Glows (Glows defending): Glows win 60% of the time.

Victories: Glows surviving: 1, 1, 4, 1, 2, 2, 3, 1, 5, 3, 2, 3 (average 2.33)

Losses: Wyverns surviving: 3, 3, 1, 1, 3, 2, 2, 1 (average 2)

------------------------------------------------------------

But then, I would say the real talent of the Glow is surviving free shots from ranged units, which it can often avoid (def 5) and seldom takes full damage from. However because of the rounding up that happens when the damage roll is odd, 7 HP and phys protection isn't as good as 14 HP. For example, average damage for archery is 1.5. The damage with phys protection is always 1, whether a 1 or 2 was rolled. This is only a 33% reduction. So against archers a Glow will survive about as well as a unit with the same defense and 10.5 HP (but not phys protection). Since the Wyvern actually has 12 HP, it can take more abuse even from archers. But the Glow is less likely to be hit, and immunity to certain non-physical attacks (mostly spells and altars) is also useful though.


[This message has been edited by Species8471 (edited 08-29-2002 @ 01:02 PM).]

posted 09-01-02 02:34 AM EDT (US)     28 / 41  
posted 09-03-02 09:21 AM EDT (US)     29 / 41  
I once took down 2 and a half Demons with ONE Ranger!
I lost, but the remaining Demon had very little HP left.
(Although I think that was just luck)

Tell me, Lucifer Morningstar... Ask yourselves, all of you... What power would Hell have if those here imprisoned were not able to dream of Heaven?

[This message has been edited by Falagar (edited 09-03-2002 @ 09:23 AM).]

posted 09-03-02 09:10 PM EDT (US)     30 / 41  
I once had a single, silver medaled demon defeat an air galley that attacked it in FC during the AI's turn.
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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW1 General Discussion & Strategies » Undead Demon vs. Highmen Valkyrie - A Closer Look
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