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Topic Subject: Story and Setting of AoW: Discussion
posted 07-21-02 04:05 PM EDT (US)   
Until recently I had pictured that the humans, led by Joseph in the Valley of Wonders, have a policy of extermination against the elves (both kinds). Now, ChowGuy has pointed out that this might not be the way that it works. I am halting all work on my campaign (and associated scenarios) until I can be sure that I understand this.

If I understand correctly, ChowGuy's attacks on this perspective in two ways: (1) While the Humans live in the Valley, they are not planning actual extermination of those elves living outside of the valley, and (2) Joseph is a cowardly, incompetant king hiding in his fortress under the Elven Court ruins and in no way the leader of humans across the Blessed Continent.

The reasons for my opinion about human policy toward elves can be summed up more or less as follows:

(1) The elves have been slaughtered across the continent, not allowed to flee (as in the Tollrock woods). This was before Elwyn settled in Aldor, but it does not mean that the humans, at least then, only wanted the elves out of their valley.

(2) The first few scenarios of the campaigns seem to imply a sense of desperation, both on the part of the Keepers and on the Cult. This sense of desperation continues throught the game (or, at least, Elric whines about it; Talic seems overconfident as they come). They NEED the halflings/goblins, and if they don't get them to join them, the elves (whichever kind you are) are sunk. This tells me that there are not very many of the Keepers (or the Cult) left.

(3) There is no Allied Victory option for Elric/Julia in the Valley of Wonders, showing that Joseph has no intention of compromise. The elves can't even ally with the High Men and keep it (the High Men are another issue, of course).

My opinions about Joseph's capacity to rule with far-reaching effects are for the following reasons:

(1) In the timeline in the back of the manual, it strikes me that most of the races (except the elves if Silvanus versus the Keepers) are behaving as a quasi-unified entity, and that the human king of the Valley of Wonders appears to be calling the shots outside the valley. This continues throught the timeline.

(2) Joseph is without doubt the most powerful of the factions in the Valley of Wonders. He starts out with several power nodes, five 4-hex towns, and an external income of 100 gold per turn. Everybody else has to settle for three 4-hex towns, and nobody gets the external income. This tells me that Joseph is exceptionally powerful and wealthy, probably directing forces outside of the Valley.

(3) Together with Inioch, Joseph is the only character with the Emperor AI in the game - even Meandor and Julia only get King. The improved AI quality tells me that Joseph is an incredible genius at military planning. The only reason why Julia and Meandor have a chance against him is because they, while not as good generals, are better at finding other resources, especially magical ones, and are probably more capable tactically (something that the elves, at least classicly, are excellent at).

(4) Triumph studios claims that the best way to win the Valley of Wonders scenario is probably to wipe out the other factions, then go after the humans last (Personally, I find that less satisfying, but still probably easier). This means that it is easier for Meandor, for example, to kill Julia and migrate her cities before going after Joseph! It's even reccomended that he take out Inioch too, before taking on the humans!

(5) Joseph has the highest level of anybody in the game, second to Inioch.


So, any comments? Suggestions? ChowGuy? Anybody else who wants to suggest something?

Replies:
posted 07-22-02 01:08 AM EDT (US)     1 / 15  
> So, any comments? Suggestions? ChowGuy? Anybody else who wants to suggest something?

Okay, strictly opinion but I'll bite.

(1) In the timeline in the back of the manual, it strikes me that most of the races (except the elves if Silvanus versus the Keepers) are behaving as a quasi-unified entity, and that the human king of the Valley of Wonders appears to be calling the shots outside the valley.

(2) Joseph is without doubt the most powerful of the factions in the Valley of Wonders. He starts out with several power nodes, five 4-hex towns, and an external income of 100 gold per turn. Everybody else has to settle for three 4-hex towns, and nobody gets the external income. This tells me that Joseph is exceptionally powerful and wealthy, probably directing forces outside of the Valley.

It tells me that the Humans who were once outside the Valley have now been driven back to a final stand there, just as the timeline states. Joesph is facing the combined forces of three armies, with one ally. He needs the advantage of extra income for the game to work at all, because there's not enough room for him to have more production resources, and he can't get to what's off his island before anyone else does. It's a mapmaking concern, not a story concern.


On the contrary, nobody seems to be calling the shots. There is no unified structure and every town goes it's own way. As the Highman note, that's the nature of the Humans, to chose their own destinies rather then let anyone, even another Human, dictate to them.


(#) Together with Inioch, Joseph is the only character with the Emperor AI in the game - even Meandor and Julia only get King. The improved AI quality tells me that Joseph is an incredible genius at military planning.

It tells me he and his heroes get 5Xp versus 4XP per turn for the other AI's and 1XP for you. He also gets gold and mana income. It has no effect at all though on how intelligently the AI plays. It's just able to build more units and cast more spells which it continues to do quite stupidly.

----------------------

And now for my analysis. Sit back, this will take a while.

Other then in or quite near to the Valley itself, Humans are largely a token and leaderless presence in the campaign. The exception to this are Lugan in Orc3 [Ashen Steppe] and Jican in Orc4 [Facing a Legend] Both of these fights are in fact quite far from the Valley, and the fact that there are relatively few Humans in the remaining areas between them and the Valley implies they are separate kingdoms rather then provinces of the ruler there.

As to their dominence in those areas, Jican's humans are the weakest of the CPU races on that map, possibly even weaker then the Orcs themselves depending on how much strength you are able bring in. Certainly no equal to Bormac who is the Cult's real enemy. Lugan is a bit better but not by much, and is being pressed hard by Sadac's Azracs, a situation Talic hopes to exploit to destroy them both.

---

But we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's look at the campaigns from the beginning rather then the end. Bear in mind that to Humans Fair Elves and Dark Elves are just Elves so both must be lumped together in deciding Human racial dominance outside the Valley.

Both campaigns start with the premise that Cult assassins, aided by local Goblins, slip unto Aldor to assainate Elwyn. The keepers persue them into the prosperous Halfling lands, and both sides seek to obtain control of the United Cities and thus the important western trade routes down the Serpent River. Halflings as noted in the timeline have grown prosperous during the hot spell as their lands flourished while the Azracs' burned. They have little taste for war though, and the Keepers race to their aid as the Cult moves to raid and loot their cities. There are no Human towns on any of these maps, and Humans are not even set as a randomly available race. Fair Elves are there however, on Aldor of course but also as independents at the 1Hex Sunbirth in Goblin Rush, and as a CPU race under Eselan in both of the United Cities maps.

The Humans' first major appearance is in Dwarf1 [Deepmir] where they have a 4Hex (Nimand) and two 3Hexes (Larfin and Avery) on the surface. Deepmir however is clearly stated to be the Dwarven homeland, and these rich cities were likely tributaries which got that way through trade with them rather then the distant Valley. Goblins and Orcs are again the enemies here, and both have more initial strength then the combined Human independents. Goblins have apparently been here all along as there are signs to that effect in collapsed caverns. Orcs may be more recent arrivals sent North by the Cult to precipitate the cavein, which IIRC Talic applauds as the work of Melenis in his commentaries. Elric is sent there by Julia to rescue their oldest allies, though he has misgivings knowing they'll be in no position to aid in the coming war against the Cult.

After the rescue Elric accompanies them through Frostling territory in Mining Outpost. There is a single Human 1Hex (Mirage) in that map South of the 4Hex Bronnom Outpost. He then decides to take time off from the war to make a side trip to the Hall of Heroes, where he again deals with Frostlings and for the first time Dark Elves under Celarn. Again Human holdings are limited to a single 1Hex (Ispar).

In Safelands Human holdings are more significant but still unorganized, with two 4Hexes, two 3Hexes, and a watchtower. The 3Hexes however are weak and close by the Lizard and Orc starting positions, so will generally by bought/conquered long before Elric gets to them. One of the 4Hexes is also near to the Lizards, but more strongly defended and can hold out longer. The other is midway between the Frostlings and Orcs, the Frosties usually get it but there's a random 4Hex in the area as well that can upset their timetable. Fair Elves have two independent 3Hexes, and Melenis' Dark Elves have a 3Hex and a 2Hex, and combined outnumber the humans in starting strength.

Elves of course are plentiful if disorganized in Elf1 [Invasion] but so are Dwarves and Halflings, and unfortunately for them so are the Undead who are anything but disorganized. Highmen make their first appearence as independents, but the Humans they are supposedly in the game to defend are not on the map at all.

In Elf2 Elric takes another side trip to the Wizard's College. It's a trap though and a force of Goblins and Dark Elves waits underground. Dwarves and Fair Elves both have 3Hexes on the surface but again no Humans to be found.

Humans do have a fairly large colony in Elf3 [Rocks of Sacrifice] centered around a pair of 3Hexes. But the Lizardmen are there as well, and in more strength. Aleas and a large force of Dark Elves are coming straight at the Humans from the South while the Undead wait in ambush underground. Elric needs to get past the Undead then rally the Independent Dwarves and Fair Elves who dot the map to the Human's defense. It's not really in his interest to risk his small force on their behalf, but it's his duty.

There are a few more Lizards plus Dwarves on the Isle of Last Goodbyes, but it's mainly Elf vs Elf. No Humans come here.

The Humans look even less dominant in the Cult campaign. Aside from the Orc3 and Orc4 scenarios already mentioned they hold a poorly defended 4hex in Orc1 [Uniting the Clans] which is within sight of the strong Azrac starting position, and almost certainly under their control from the first. Ther are two more in Orc2 [Goblin Revolt] which are in the middle of the Goblin Dwarf Halfling war zone. Goblins are of course Talic's enemies here, and the predominant race overall.

In DarkElf1 [From the Depths] its Elf versus Elf again as Talic lays seige to the ancient citidel at Araclot. Humans may appear as randoms, but they have no fixed holdings. Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, and the Highmen again all do however.

In DarkElf2 [Noble Treachery] Talic must deal with the Tharic brothers who have gone over to the Azracs, Lizards, and Frostlings. All races are tagged as possible randoms but yet again we find that while the Highmen occupy a 2Hex [Lashemi] and a 1Hex [Walnob] near the Fair Elves 4Hex at Cais, Humans are nowhere to be seen.

The Human 4Hex at Port Logan in DarkElf3 does sound impressive, but it's not only in Talic's path but that of the Undead and the Highmen as well. So of course are the independent Dark Elves 4Hex and trio of 1Hexes to the North. Elves outnumber Humans here, but only slightly, and given the geography one may assume this time it's a Human trading center for what may have either been Human or Elvish cities in the interior before the Highman and Undead arrived. Those two forces, as Talic notes, are more concerned with each other then anything else but will not hesitate to "convert" anyone else in their path as well. One way or another the Humans are in trouble. Their only potential link to the Valley is by sea, and that's the direction Talic is coming from. Looks like they may have been looking to Jican and Lugan for backup rather then Joseph. Too bad for them.

In DarkElf4 [The Storm breaks loose] Talic engages a four way alliance of Fair Elves, Halflings, Dwarves and Highmen. This is his final approach to the Valley, yet, oddly, still no sign of the Humans who it would seem are busy.

And so they are, for at the Pass of Grief we finally find them in real numbers, in both Highmen and Undead versions of the map, though more so in the Undead where of course they count as enemies and outnumber you, as opposed to potential allies in the Highmen version where the Undead are far more numerous.

These may indeed be Joseph's troops here to finally make a stand at the entrance to his realm. It certainly appears that way as they have many more war parties then towns, but it's odd that if he's a great and powerful Emperor he can't even spare a Hero to lead them. You'd think he let them have Sirdanc the Changedat the least.

So then that brings us to the Valley scenarioes where as noted, Joseph has a slight initial advantage over any one of the the four other races. Compared to the legions of Undead you faced as a Keeper in Invasion, or the combined armies Talic had to get past, it's very slight indeed. As also noted, he needs and gets external income and Emperor AI level [max income and XP per turn] just to be competitive. Given the operation of the AI's game engine and your own levels by that point, far from being the strongest enemy you face in the game he is in fact relatively the weakest, and the scenarioes among the easiest. If the strategy guide does indeed advise leaving him tilll last it's because he's the least threat to you, he may actually help by taking out some of your other enemies, Inioch in particular, and in general delaying his demise is less dangerous then delaying that of Meandor or Julia for example.

posted 07-22-02 12:54 PM EDT (US)     2 / 15  
Lugan and Jican are probably not politically underneath Joseph. Point conceded.

Rebuttal: There are five more human leaders in the campaign worthy of note:
Sedric, on Lizardman 2 (Penninsula of Sobek)
Ardanos, on Lizardman 3 (The Serpent River)
Goldar, on Lizardman 4 (Blackwater Lake)
Thajan, on Undead 2 (Isle of Burbatak)
Lazerous, on Undead 3 (Opposition)

The Penninsula of Sobek and the Serpent River are a long way from the Valley of Wonders. Blackwater Lake and especially the Isle of Burbatak are much closer; however, it is concievable (if unlikely) that even Sedric is under Joseph's thumb, since the Penninsula of Sobek is not far from the Serpent River which flows into Blackwater Lake. I forget where Opposition takes place, but I suspect that it is in the area between The Skull and the Valley of Wonders, since Inioch's campaign is in that general area. The various factions on the Serpent River are relatively equal. Humans are relatively strong on the Penninsula and at Blackwater. They are average in Opposition and on the Isle of Burbatak.

The presence of elves in these scenarios is also of note. The Dark Elves are not present on the Penninsula. The fair elves are there, but not in numbers (there are more independent humans, as well as there being a human leader). On the Serpent River, there are fair elves, roughly equal to the other races. At Blackwater Lake, there are again fair elves on the map, but again, the independent humans alone outnumber them. The Isle of Burbatak poses another question, however: the fair elves aren't even on the map, but the dark elves are. The dark elves, however, have their city that is on the island in the desert; My guess (and I am having Julia see this early in my campaign) is that that city was an Azrac holding before Meandor sent somebody to take it over. In opposition, humans, elves, and dark elves are all present, with one 4-hex each, and the dark elves are slightly stronger and the fair elves slightly weaker.

Now, on to other maps. I can understand why the humans are not a fighting force in On the Rocks of Sacrifice, because the undead have already appeared a while before Elric got there. It seems logical that there /was/ a human leader who got snuffed by either Aleas or Morrandir before Elric arrived on the Scene. The same may be true of the lizardmen. Also, Elric's comments reveal that the fact that Aleas is even there surprised him; he thought that the undead would control the whole area.

Now, onto the Valley of Wonders. Joseph has enemies on three sides of him: Inioch, Julia, and Meandor. Meandor also has enemies on three sides: Gabriel, Joseph, and Julia. Julia has enemies on three sides: Meandor, Joseph, and Inioch. I've also seen Joseph expand into the area between Julia and Meandor very quickly, so he can get to the (largely human) settlements, including two 4-hex towns, there. The fact that Joseph usually kills the AI leaders early on with scouting air galleys is not a story-based indication of his strength but of the stupidity of the AI (I wish the better AI /were/ smarter instead of just having more resources).

As for the Pass of Grief, one of the cities is named Valora's Keep. It makes sense that Valora has already gone down before the scenario actually begins.

I guess, between re-reading the timeline and reading the commentaries by Elric and Talic, that the humans are probably as strong or stronger than either the Cult or the Keepers, but they are probably weaker than Inioch. As for the extermination of the Elves, Talic writes about "the slow fate of extincition" in the introduction to Goblin 1 (Assassination), and this tells me that the elves are being slowly wiped out by other races, chief among them the humans, but probably that all of the races that are not actual allies of the elves are doing it as well. However, you are absolutely right - Joseph's direct influence is certainly not felt anywhere west of the United Cities for sure, and probably not that far. Point conceded.

posted 07-23-02 00:02 AM EDT (US)     3 / 15  
I think scouring through the campaign scenarios to see which race has more cities is kind of pointless -these numbers have more to do with game play than storyline.

During the time of Inioch's reign, all of the races looked to the Elven court, even Orcs and Goblins. With the destruction of Inioch's court, all of a sudden the races are not subject to any central government, so naturally the age of anarchy begins. Races that were friendly before continue to be friendly, other races act on ancient grudges, or prey on weaker neighbours.

If Elric or Talic are under the impression that most of the races they encounter are out to get them, that's probably so. With the fall of Inioch, the Elves are no longer the top dogs. When the leader of the pack loses a challenge, the rest of the pack is likely to kill him.


Lord Fell, Master of the Black Hand
posted 07-23-02 01:57 AM EDT (US)     4 / 15  
Interesting reading guys!
posted 07-23-02 05:27 AM EDT (US)     5 / 15  
I supose you started this thread because of what hapened in the RPG thread. Well, if I got it right, that story takes place in a completly new world that has nothing to do with AoW, Arda, Forgoten Realms etc.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 07-23-02 11:29 AM EDT (US)     6 / 15  
Actually, I think he started this thread because he's working on a new set of campaign maps for AoW1. The premise as I understand it is to answere the question "While Elric and Talic are gathering their forces, whzat are Julia and Meandor doing?" When the protagonnists finally join them in the Valley, they both have significant forces with them, so must have been gathering them up, and his campaign will follow that line. But he also wants the story line to be consistant with the AoW1 campaign.

Now it seems that his world view is that the Continent has been under the control of a single empire of Humans, with Joseph in the Valley at it's head. This empire actively seeks to oppress and exterminate the Elves, and Julia and Meandor are in effect two resistance fighters from opposing factions trying to bring it down. He's trying here to establish the boundaries of that empire.

Consider in the light of European history. Rome was the center of the world, the Verdant Court of its time, when it was assailed by barbarians and fell. Now to be honest, the barabarians in AoW arrive suddenly and with impressive technologies, so they're more like space invaders then Huns, but that's beside the point. Or not. Anyway, fleeing from the Human tyranny, Elwyn leads a leads a rag-tag fugitive fugitive army in search of a shining island known as Aldor. Say, that does sound familiar. Anyway they get a home from friendly Halflings and settle there. Meandor takes another band and hides out somewhere among the Orcs and other low-lifes. Joseph eventually becomes the reigning Imperious Leader.

Well a few hundred years have passed and the Galacticans, I mean Elves, are ready to counter attack and reclaim their homeland. Or the Cult is at any rate, that's a given, they've been staging terrorist attacks all this time, and have now allied with the previously unorganized Undead.

So within that context, the presence of Elves and Humans in close proximity to each other, even trading with each other, poses a problem. If they're within the Human Empire, they should be considered enemies, and at war with each other, but we're just coming off the 'Decade of Silence' a time of uncertain peace in which no serious battles have been fought, though everbody has been arming as if a war is inevitable.

This is quite iffy. If everybody is arming for war, does that imply just a few largely organized nations, or many small city states which yet to be brought into a single alliance? Beren feels it's the former, and cites several examples. I feel it's the later, and to again go to the fall of Rome. The Goths, Visigoths, and Huns all sacked the city, the left. Attila did not crown himself the new Roman Emperor, and most of the known world fell into a Dark Ages in which the invding barbarians eventually displaced any native peoples, but did so haphazardly. Political control devolved into fuedalism, with every warlord who could hold a sword declaring himself a king.

This is how I feel the world of AoW1 is, broken first by the Humans, then the invasion and defeat of the the Azracs, and most recently the deprdations of the Undead affter 'someone' blows the Trump of Doom. [And I have my own ideas who] In this model, Julia must be forging a new alliance, trying to convince the various small kingdoms to pool their resources for a final decisive stand against the again encroaching Undead. That stand will take inevitably place in the Valley. That's Meandor's goal, and now that he's foolishly resurrected Inioch and given the Undead the single leader they never had, it's theirs as well.

Joseph in this scenario need not be a major player, nor his influence appear at all. And that means a different set of circumstances for Beren's campaign.

You're right in saying that this is pointless with regard to the existing maps of course, or indeed with how they may tie into Aow2. I don't neccessarily see why a new campaign needs to reflect the existing timeline at all, but since that's Beren's working thesis I'm trying to help him here. If I thought the idea was stupid, I'd never spend as much time on it as I have. What comes out of it may be, probably will be, some middle ground. This is a discussion about possibilities, not an "I'm right and you're not" contest.

posted 07-23-02 12:55 PM EDT (US)     7 / 15  
Magnificently well explained, ChowGuy; that is exactly why I started the discussion, and that is exactly the premise of my campaign. Now if only I knew who the Galacticans are and what story they're from, I might be interested in their story, too!

So, in essense, you are saying that the individual in charge of making sure that the Humans in the Valley of Wonders and everywhere else survive and prosper is not Joseph, but Gabriel. This makes sense, considering that there are humans and references to humans all over the place in the High Men and Undead campaigns, but as you say, there are no references to Joseph in particular; only The Humans In The Valley Of Wonders (and plenty to Gabriel, even in the Undead campaign).

So, this brings us to another question: of the eight human leaders we've mentioned so far, how many of them would know each other? As I said in my last post, Blackwater Lake and the Isle of Burbatak are close enough to the Valley of Wonders that I would consider expanding the borders of Joseph's rule into outposts on those two maps. The Serpent River and the Penninsula of Sobek are more tenuous - my guess is that the Humans there are pirates, like the Azracs.

Certainly I would expect people like Julia and Meandor to be known all over the place - they've been around a while, and certainly Joseph might imagine that the elves might like to have their valley back. So, presumably, he would try to bump off Julia if she gave him a chance. I also very much agree with Lord Fell's comment.

posted 07-24-02 09:33 PM EDT (US)     8 / 15  
Once again, aside from Lord Fell and myself, who also feels that most of the AoW races are trying to wipe out the (dark) elves whenever they can?

Also, what is the possibility that the Humans in the Isle of Burbatak and at Blackwater Lake are associated with those in the Valley of Wonders?

posted 07-25-02 02:02 PM EDT (US)     9 / 15  
I'm not 100% sure that our opinions are in accord, Beren. If I understand correctly the two different views of yours and Chowguy's, I'm inclined to think of my own stance as the bridge between the two.

As I understand it, you feel that Joseph has established himself as the new Emperor of the blessed continent, and has taken over where Inioch left off. One the other hand, Chowguy feels that the destruction of the Elven Court echoes that of the fall of Rome; the empire is destroyed, with no replacement.
I definitely feel that Joseph has named himself Emperor. Human settelments may or may not accept the rulership of Joeseph, depending on whether the people feel a sense of nationalism, or that it is expedient to pretend to. As for the other races, I'm sure that with the exception of settlements close to the valley of Wonders, they do not consider the Humans any sort of rulers. "We obeyed the Elves for a dozen centuries, I'll be damned if we'll obey the humans for a dozen more."
As for how the Elves (Dark and Fair) are treated after the fall, it doesn't really matter whether the other races are obeying an Edict from Imperial Humanitas or not: the mighty have fallen, kick them while they're down, those guys used to be rich -I wonder if they still have anything worth taking? Certainly, Joeseph has issued some sort of edict about slaying elves that are travelling towards the valley, but for the most part, the races in the Valley are just doing what they were gonna do anyways...

As for your campaign, I would say that if it fits YOUR storyline to have a particular group doing what Joseph tells them to, or conversly doing something that Joseph would NOT want them too, then it's all good. Human settlements might obey Joseph, but then again, they might not. I mean... George Dubbya is "the Leader of the Free World" but as a Canadian, I wouldn't cross the street if he asked me (nicely) to. As for other races, there are reasons why they might be working for human interests.


Lord Fell, Master of the Black Hand

[This message has been edited by Lord Fell (edited 07-25-2002 @ 02:11 PM).]

posted 07-25-02 02:38 PM EDT (US)     10 / 15  
Actually, Lord Fell, I think that Chowguy made a little mistake in his synopsis of my position by using the wrong tense: that *was* how I viewed it. After some discussion, I have actually came to the *identical* conclusion as you just put forth.
posted 08-09-02 01:01 PM EDT (US)     11 / 15  
Wow, what an incredible read everyone! Amazing analysis of the campaign Chowguy!

BTW, it was Melenis blew the Horn of the Dead.

You've probably already seen it, but I hope the online Timeline and AoW1 story are helpful in your new campaign.

posted 08-09-02 10:38 PM EDT (US)     12 / 15  
"BTW, it was Melenis blew the Horn of the Dead.

You've probably already seen it, but I hope the online Timeline and AoW1 story are helpful in your new campaign.
"

Oh yes, I have the manual, and have been putting it to use!

Thanks, Angel Draco!

posted 12-18-05 00:07 AM EDT (US)     13 / 15  
the galacticans(elves are off of battlestar galactica(tv show), the undead(and possibly cult) are cylons and the dudes from battlestar pegasus are highmen (i read a script for the second season of the origonal show some where and it sorta fits)
posted 12-26-05 04:55 PM EDT (US)     14 / 15  
Yesterday I beat the final battle in the original Age of Wonders Campaign.

I was quite shocked, as I saw Elwyn - as an undead hero !

Has Inioch resurrected his former wife ? Or was it Meandor ?

posted 01-04-06 07:26 AM EDT (US)     15 / 15  
It sure wasn't Meandor, if anything he would have ressurected his mommy (Julia the first). Must have been Inioch...

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