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Topic Subject: Best Level 3 Sect of a Race?
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posted 09-06-01 02:01 PM EDT (US)   
Frogman metioned this topic in another thread so I thought since Nojd just posted all of the game's Units Statistics online now for easy reference, it would be a perfect time to discuss it. Remember, we're talking about the Total Package of Level 3 units a Race has.

Obviously, the Highmen and Undead stand out here, as they were meant to be. Triumph intended these be the two strongest races.

The Highem have the Titan (muscle), Valkyrie (flight) and the Avenger (glorified Ranger).

The Undead have the Bone Horror (tank), Demon (flight) and Wraith (unique).

THE UNDEAD
I have to give the upper hand to the Undead here. Bone horors are an impossing unit, with both huge HP (19), wall crushing and death strike. I've loaded up a gold medal Horror with stone skin, enchante weapon and unholy champion, and that baby had 91 XP when it finally went down. It's regeneration lets it fight down to the last HP, and then come back ready for more the very next turn.

Demons are one tough flyer; they have the same attack and damage of a Titan! In a recent PBEM game against Thrashbarg my demon went toe-to-toe against his Air Galley and it took it out in 3 bites, victorious! When I played COTDL in single player, 6 demons took out my 23 level hero who had a 10 defense and resistance and 16 HP! That high attack rating is a killer!

Finally, the wraith. While not as universally versitle as the Demon or Bone Horror for most combat situations, given the right conditions it will walk unhindered across the countryside, wiping out whole towns and armies.

THE HIGHMEN
For the Highmen, we've discussed the merits of the Titan before, and indeed it's an imposing unit. The Valk is one of the best level 3 fliers in the game as well, as its Holy Strike lets it hit nearly every unit in te game. But its low defense and lack of innate healing makes these units weak compared to the Demon.

The Avenger is a glorified Elven Avenger IMHO and is a redundant unit in light of the Valk. Yes, the Avegner has swiming and mountaineering, but no wall climbing! What does one need a swiming and mountain unit for when you can build a true flying unit like the Valk? Granted, the Avenger has Turn Undead II, but I'll take the Valk's Holy Strike over that anyday. The Avenger is a weak unit and doesn't add much to the Highmen's Level 3 arsonal.

THE DWARVES
While a strong argument can be made for the Dwarves' Level 3 Sect, it just doesn't compare to the Undead's. The Giant is one of the best units in the game, but it's low defense prevents me from putting it on a pedestal. But one wraith can wipe out an 8 stack of Giants.

The balloon is an incredibly useful level 3 unit, providing troop transport, but I would rather cast Free Movement on a Dragonship. Plus, the Giants have such a huge movement rating, the balloon doesn't really help much here.

The Mole has its uses, but it's a statistically weak unit and unless I'm planing on digging, I never build them.

One also has to remember that none of the Dwarves' level 3 units has an enhanced strike of some sort, so they're vulnerable to wraiths and air elementals unless a hero is around to cast enchanted weapon.

THE FROSTLINGS
I think the Frostlings come in at a close tie with the Highmen. I've discussed the Frostlings at length in my Strategy Guide for them (which you can read here).

What is everyone else's opinion?

[This message has been edited by Angel Draco (edited 09-06-2001 @ 02:45 PM).]

Replies:
posted 09-06-01 02:37 PM EDT (US)     1 / 63  
Don't forget the Frosties.

Yeti: Almost as tough as Giants, but Wall Crushing instead of Hurl Boulder. Well, Hurl Boulder is really inaccurate, so I don't think it's such a big loss. And the Yeti has +1 Defense compared to the Giant. And Cold Strike!!

Frost Queen: Not fantastic, but can be handy. Messes up your opponents' terrain, which hurts their economies. Can freeze water to allow your ground troops to cross!! Reasonably well-armed, with both Cold Strike and Frost Bolts.

Nordic Glow: One mean flier. Magic Strike to take out Wraiths and Incarnates, and a whole heap of defenses. Okay, so the stats aren't great ... Physical Protection makes up for a lot.

I would consider the Frosties' Lvl 3 units to be superior to the Dwarves. Combine Yeti for muscle, a Frost Queen (or two) for support, and Nordic Glows for aerial raids ... and you have a formidable, well-balanced attack force. I also like the Gobbos' Lvl 3 units, but I'll let someone else type for a while.

posted 09-06-01 11:03 PM EDT (US)     2 / 63  
I would rate them as follows, best to worst.

undead - 3 excellent choices, best balance
highmen - 2 excellent choices 1 ok choice
frostlings - 1 excellent choice, 2 good choices
goblins - 3 good choices, well balanced
dwarves - 1 super choice, 1 good choice, 1 ok choice
orcs - 1 excellent choice, 2 good choices
lizards - 1 excellent choice, 2 poor choices
halflings - 3 good choices, not well balanced
elves - 2 good choices, 1 ok choice
dark elves - 1 good choice, 2 ok choices
humans - 1 good choice, 2 poor choices
azracs - 1 ok choice, 2 poor choices

I would be tempted to take the Goblins over frostings. To me the goblins have 3 buildable units while the frostlings are pretty much nordic glow without a whole lot of thought. Goblins give you the option of a tunnelling, wall crushing unit with 40 movement. Way better than a Yeti even if a Yeti could take it one on one, it would have to catch it first. If the goblins need a melee monster, trolls are not to be taken lightly with 7 damage 6 attack and regeneration.

I also would expect disagreement on the lizards and on the first go through I had them down below the elves. Consider this. Everyone thinks highly of the Frostlings and you can say the yeti and frost queen are ok, but give me a level 3 frostling city and I am cranking out nordic glows every time. I find nordic glows to be darn tough and easy to medal up. For me, the frostlings only really present one option for building. On that basis look at the wyvern. At 12 hp and 4 defense it is pretty durable, 5 damage so it hits hard and with poison. Really it is tougher than a valkyrie. Of course you won't build lurkers or salamanders but like I said, I don't build yeti or frost queens either. I don't know that the nordic glow is that much better than the wyvern to put the frostlings at the top and the lizards at the bottom.

Having a good flyer is so critical for a level 3 city that is really is the critical unit to judge, unless you have a rock hurling, mountain climbing, melee monster in its place. Notice the bottom of the list is for races with no level 3 flyer.

The orcs have a crappy flyer but you get the warlord, arguably the best level 3 ground unit though I still like the titan better.

As far as unit ratings, there is one super, excellent is given to units that are best in class, good is for a unit you would actually build, ok is for a unit that could under some circumstance be valualbe, poor is for units that just serve no function. Some things could be reconsiderd based on costs. Eagle Riders and bats aren't great but they only cost 55.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 09-07-2001 @ 00:04 AM).]

posted 09-06-01 11:32 PM EDT (US)     3 / 63  
Good points about the Gobbos, but why the Humans above the Azracs? Overall, I think the Azracs have a better contingent of Level 3 Units than the Humans, because at least they have floaters. The Musketter and Charlatan totally suck, so that only leaves the Cavalier. And as you say, the Cavalier would have to catch the floaters, and it can't as they can cross water and mountatins.
posted 09-07-01 00:22 AM EDT (US)     4 / 63  
In reviewing the rating I think there are three things you look for in the best level 3 city. First you want a flyer, second you want a strong melee unit, third you want a unit with special abilities that add something to your stack. The undead are the ideal example of the sort of choices that make you install all three units if you could. Goblins, frostlings, and orcs also fit this mold.

Elves, lizards and halflings lack a real quality melee unit. Highmen avengers really don't add anything with their abilities. Dwarves, Humans, Dark Elves and Azracs don't have a flyer.

While I say the frostlings are one dimensional, it is only because the nordic glow is so good, not that the other units are that bad. While nordic glows are not meant to be melee monsters, I find that physical protection lets them take on some tough assignments and flight lets them quit anytime they want. Even if Frost Queens couldn't fight at all, you have to like a unit that lets you transport multiple stacks over water.

Orcs have the same problem as frostlings, warlords are so good at what they do you overlook the other units. Doom Bats are cheap and have underground concealment and the assassin who gives a good ranged attack with several other good abilities.

So on a purely design basis, rating the overall selections I would have to say that the top 4, in order would be undead, frostlings, goblins, orcs.

posted 09-07-01 07:54 AM EDT (US)     5 / 63  
I think Frogman summed up the use of the level three units nicely. Going for a flyer or a tough melee unit first might depend on the situation but basically I agree.

What I don’t agree about is the use of avengers. It’s the only unit with turning ability that has a good defence value. That is a big issue, all other turners runs a big risk of being killed in one blow by something that can cause a lot of damage. This will make it fairly easy for avengers to advance to silver or gold medal. I’d say turn undead is ok at level one, good at level two and an absolute killer at level three or four. You point out the bone horror as being one of the best level three units. I agree but to me avengers are the ultimate bone horror killing unit. If the bone horror doesn’t kill the avenger with his two first strikes (roughly a 30% chance) he is toast. Then he has to survive two holy retaliation strikes and a turning attempt by the avenger. I’m not sure of his chances to survive that (I’m not really sure what the chances to get vertigoed are) but I’d say the odds are probably in the avengers favour.

Against other races I agree the avenger will be of limited use (even though he will do twice as much damage as a valkyrie against anything evil and has a ranged attack).


posted 09-07-01 10:03 AM EDT (US)     6 / 63  
A good point Fisenflycht, but I find Turning to be so unreliable that I never use it anymore. Same with Dispell Magic. I got so tired of trying in vain to use Dispell III on Summoned Dragons using my Astras that I don't even try anymore. Better to just get in a few good swings.
posted 09-07-01 10:10 AM EDT (US)     7 / 63  
Fisenflycht is right about the Avenger's worth. Don't count it out totally. Avengers kill Undead, and they do it really well. Therefore, if you're fighting against the Undead, the Avenger should be high on your production list.

Of course, against living opponents, the Avenger loses a lot of its sparkle. The Holy Bolts are rather nice, but they just don't have much else to offer. Yeah, Avengers can scout, but Valkyries are better scouts by far....

posted 09-07-01 01:06 PM EDT (US)     8 / 63  
I find saints and paladins do a decent job on bone horrors. Bone Horrors and wraiths are the only units you can really turn. It is just too specialized a task to get all excited about avengers. Especially when paladins and saints can do it about as well and have healing. Sure you need a group of paladins or saints to really do the job, but I wouldn't waste a level 3 install on an avenger. Not when valkyrie and titans are my other options.
posted 09-07-01 03:03 PM EDT (US)     9 / 63  
Well in a MP game I guess it comes down to how much time and money you have to spare. I haven't played highmen against a human playing the undead so I'm not sure what I would do. Saints can die quite quick if you are unlucky, the paladins turn ability isn't that great if they don't get a medal but then you can have more of these instead of relying on avengers just as you said. What do you mean by saying you can only turn wraiths and horrors?

[This message has been edited by Fisenflycht (edited 09-07-2001 @ 03:04 PM).]

posted 09-07-01 04:09 PM EDT (US)     10 / 63  
My first post here. New to game, glad to see people are still playing despite its age.

I respectfully disagree with the above considerations. I think the Orcs are the single best power race in the game at all set level, including 3. Here's why.

We all know the value of Warlords, I shan't comment on them except to underscore, these are the best bruisers in the game.

As to the others, what you want to balance out the Warlord is a flyer, a wall buster, and a ranged attacker. Orcs can do all three.

Doom Bats are useless for anything besides scouting and poaching lightly guarded cities, but so are most flyers. Any flyer without high defenses or a ranged attack is nothing more than a glorified scout. So the Orcs have it as good as most here.

Their wall busting abilities are less than optimal, since they have a wall climber rather than a crusher, but that's not so bad, just bring a ram along and have the Assassin take out pesky archers. To make up for their lack of wall busting, Assassins have good versatility, including stealth and a fairly potent ranged attack.

To me, no other race offers this mix of usefulness.

As to the poster's mention of High Men and Undead, the reason I disagree:

Of the High Men, Avengers are gimmicks, and Valkyries are too weak hitting and have low defenses, rendering them not much better than Wyverns and Doom Bats. Titan is in most instances inferior to Warlords; I'll take an extra sword and shield over fire immunity and first strike in my main melee units any day.

Of the Undead, Bone Horrors and Demons are too fragile to be more than wall busters and flyers. Wraiths can chew through an infinite number of set 1 and 2 units, making them deadly against the computer, but any human player can wipe them out fairly easily.

I would consider Dark Elves superior to either of the above.

But I would place the Orcs first. Note also that Orcs have the best Swordsman and Cavalry, as well as arguably the most generally useful set 4 unit in the game. This makes the Orcs tops at all stages.

posted 09-07-01 04:18 PM EDT (US)     11 / 63  
IMO

  1. Doombats have limited movement points
  2. Demons are not fragile
  3. It is not true that Wraiths can be wiped out fairly easily by any human player
posted 09-07-01 05:08 PM EDT (US)     12 / 63  
Quick followup.

Doom Bats move 1-2 hexes less per turn. To balance that out they cost far less, meaning more of them to scout, which ends up covering more ground. Also we're talking set 3 units as a whole, so the fact they fly at all is good enough.

Demons *are* fragile. Defense 4, 10 hit points. Regeneration won't make up for the speed with which these guys bleed hit points against heavy hitters like Titans, Karaghs, and Warlords.

Wraiths can be vaporized easily by a group of shaman and a coupla swordsmen to slow him down. It will take more cost points and turns total to create Wraith busting stacks, however, if attrition is your goal. The Wraith's protection is in immunities; once you crack that, they dont have the defense or hit points to last long at all. Contrast that to Warlords and Titans who have no or few immunities to speak of, meaning everything can hurt them, but they can soak up tons of attacks and kill a bunch of things along the way before they go down.

posted 09-07-01 05:14 PM EDT (US)     13 / 63  
Damn, forgot to mention something very important. Defense is probably the most important stat of the game, a single point of Defense is worth several in it Hit points. This is magnified in FC where you cant maneuver to take advantage of potent attack/weak defense. This is where the Demon becomes very fragile.

Similarly, you want attack and damage to be near one another. Something like the Valk, with high Attack and low Damage, is out of balance. You want something like the Karagh which has something like 7-7, or was it 7-8?

Anyway FC's impact on unit effectiveness should be taken into consideration in assessing a unit, IMHO.

posted 09-08-01 00:06 AM EDT (US)     14 / 63  
I hate to get ugly tortfeasor (actually I don't mind it so much) but you are clueless.

Demons fragile???? 4 defense is not that bad when you combine it with 6 attack and 6 damage. Demons can kick your butt. No other flyer is as dangerous as the demon. Bone horrors not up to melee???? They have 19 hp with 5 attack and 5 damage. If you don't kill 'em, they come back next turn at full strength. Add wall crushing to that and I just can't stand here and listen to this dribble.

I won't even get into the many ways a titan is better than a warlord but obviously you know nothing of the value of speed if you think you'll just lug around a ram with you every where you go. Then again, I suppose a ram doesn't slow a warlord down that much.

I think I gave the orcs credit for at least having a well balanced level 3 group, but they are not the best. You just can't put doom bats in the same group as valkyrie and wyverns and definitely not demons. Doom bats are not that good. Throw a couple spells and a medal on valkyrie and wyvern and you have a heavy hitter. No amount of spells on a doom bat is going to do that much. They are just weak and their cost is evidence of that. And cheap isn't that big an advantage. For the production time and upkeep, I would rather pay a little extra and get a better unit.

And what is that balance crap between attack and damage? Duh, 7-7 is better than 7-4. I believe 7-4 is better than the doom bats 4-4, balance doesn't mean anything. I would say that the demon at 6-6 is more of a threat than the valkyrie at 7-4, but not because of balance, but because the numbers add up to more. Also consider the hero skills, damage level ups cost twice attack level ups.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 09-08-2001 @ 00:07 AM).]

posted 09-08-01 00:13 AM EDT (US)     15 / 63  
I'm back anybody miss me *grins* sorry was away for abit time to stress my expertise. The best lvl 3 sects. belong to the undead and highmen, games designed that way you cant help it. But as for the others i got alot of argueable room.

Lizardmen-Salamanders are often underestimated, they have fire strike and fire immunity, so they can cross lava and ignite units , add this to a high attack rate and you got a pretty decent unit. Lurkers, umm i really havent found a good use for these cept surprising boats, course a boat can kill one lurker on its own but a group of em can take out alot, dont find em useful though. Wyverns one of the best lvl 3 flyers in my opinion, they have a good attack, poison strike, 12 HP, and 36 movement makes em great scouts(most lvl 3 fliers have 32 movement, use to think 36 but I counted, but most fliers in the game have 36).

Azrac-Beholders, these guys never get used how there supposed too, heh floating, and doom gaze give em a movement advantage and a nice range attack but there most important things are Vision II and True seeing, wide view range and can detect those concealed units trying to play sneak attack with you. Djinn, umm there good in warlocks rule because of the physical protection, but nothing special in regular. Sandworms, well they have nice HP and nice damage, but there mainly for tunneling, 26 movement is limiting, but a drill is 20, so it can be made faster and travel abit farther then the drill.

Humans- Cavaliers, best thing the humans got going for em, they got good armor and nice attack so they can take some damage. Charletons have there uses, any unit with Bardskills is good in my opinion, problem is Humans are neutral so it lessens the value of it, charm is good I guess, but not too good of a unit if you ask me. Muskateers, These guys can do some harm, sure a ballista can do more damage but it seems Muskateers seem to do more damage in the end then ballistae, and Musketeers have higher movement rate.

Frostlings-Some of the best lvl 3 units in the game, yeti one of the bruiser units, has wall crushing, and cold strike, makes it deadly and good for city sieges. Frost Queens, umm a unit who can expand your terrain, and is concealed in ice which she expands not to mention who can freeze water allowing units to follow her across the land, so she's weak at melee, who cares! and Nordic glows, definately the best lvl 3 flyer, 36 movement, sure it has low health but it has physical protection so thats techniqually doubles it! plus it has loads of immunities, and magic strike.

Goblins-another set of some of the greatest lvl 3 units, Big beetle, one of the most useful units, its a wall crusher with 40 movement points and it can tunnel, and in combat it can use poisen strike to boot!. Trolls, they can hurt got nice damage, low defense though, but have regeneration to take care of that, next there nice and fresh, I'd like to see a warlord do that. Wyvern riders, at only 55 gold you get a flyer with poisen strike and 32 movement, great scout and taking small cities (yes I know there weak but there so cheap there expendable).

Dark Elves-Executioners are arguably the best calvalry unit, death immunity, trail of darkness, and life stealing, they can reck havok. Shadows, I never hear much of these guys but I've done so much evil with a group of these, I find them very useful, concealment, pass wall, and physical protection makes for some interesting tactics. Spider Queens, well seduction and charm get downplayed alot, but they are usefull, wall climbing and web are good, she's really a jack of all trade units like the Charleton, not much uses but neat abilities.

Orcs-Warlords, I wont comment on them, you guys know how good they are(better then titans in my opinion). Orc assassins, heh poisen darts at mark III can be useful, but thats not really what there good for, these guys can play nasty hit and run, capture and hide games. Doombats, they dont move 1-2 hexes less they move atleast 3 hexes less, 26 movement 3 movement a hex, 8 hexes, 36 movement, 11 hexes, see the difference? but wow three hexes huh, well lets see in three turns there 3 hexes less are now 9 hexes less, there great for underground scouting, move about invisible, pack of these can do some sneaky damage down there, cheap cost is good, but there as much as eagle riders and wyvern riders, who do move more hexes.

Undead-Wraiths, unit with magic strike will down em fast, but if you have a horde of units without magic strike or holy strike, these guys will mow through them, which makes em very powerful, if they had a good defense then it'd be way overkill. Demons, theses guys are powerful, low on the defense but there flyers so your titan who can almightly take down my demon, will have to wait till my demon actually strikes him in the mean time he's killing everything else. Bone horrors, these guys got a decent attack and damage, but they got wall crushing, and 19 hp! these guys take alot, and if they get badly hurt, on the next turn there back to full gotta love that regeneration.

Halflings-Eagle riders, like I said there cheap and make good scouts, there cheap and thus expendable(these guys are great cause of the price!). Centaurs, I love any unit who can hit Mark IV, these guys can hit hard with there archery and deal damage at melee, plus they have good movement, great unit! Halfing rogues, these guys are a more powerful version of the Orc Assassin, Mark III and Hurl stones can be deadly, again these guys can prove to do some very nasty tactics.

Elves-Fairy, cheap unit that flys, horrible attack and low health, its cheap and has concealment though so is great for sneaking about and scouting. Ranger, I love these guys for some reason, they make great scouts but can hit Mark IV with archery which can deal some pretty nasty damage, if it runs into trouble it can walk right over to water, basically just a stronger non flying version of the fairy, has a good ranged attack to make up for it. Unicorn, well its one of the best lvl3 good units out there, it has a nice attack, healing, good movement, and awesome resistance. The charge helps it in melee, plus the magic strike will help it take down things like wraiths and air elementals.

Drawves-These guys have some nice units, but the thing that stands out the most in my opinion are the giants, they have good movement, and hurl boulders, so they can take walls down from a distance and not slow your stack down, plus they have a good melee strike. Mole riders, umm these guys are just a slower version of the beetle, wall crushing is good but the hurl boulder of the giant is better, it can tunnel though so its great at that, its a good unit, but unless you need to tunnel the giant can be used instead. Baloon, cheap transport, this thing can be used to deliver troops extremely fast, and it can be made quickly.

Highmen-Avengers, these guys like previously started are great against the undead, (turn undead is a major disadvantage to the undead in my opinion good thing noone ever uses it), their holy champion gives em a bonus in attack and damage against evil units, there fire immunity gives them lava crossing something thats absent in the ranger, holy strike gives them an advantage cause of the vertigo effect, they cant be possessed, and against neutral or good they'll go down hard but against an evil race the holy champion gives them 7 att/6 damage (5 att/4 dam normally), so they do deal out some damage, only thing that there missing is concealment but I guess that evens out the extra abilities it has. Valkyres fast movement and flying is good, but they have weak damage, but nice attack (7) which means there more likely to land holy strike on you, there charge makes up for the low attack on the first strike, but thats only the first strike. Titans, fastest moving bruiser unit, 36 movement, these guys got 10 more movement then a warlord, but either then getting across the map faster I still prefer a warlord. Round attack is nice, but there first strike is great for retalitory strikes, and fire immunity means red dragons gotta go in and attack these guys, top it all off with good HP, these guys are on the top of the list.

In the end, all the lvl 3 units have there uses but it is common to see that the best set of lvl 3s (not particular ones) are the Highmen and the Undead, for the undead they got a flyer who can dish out damage, a unit that is immune to normal attack, and a wall crusher with massive HP. For the highmen you got the undead killer(avenger), the fast moving bruiser(titan) and a swift moving flyer, who can cause vertigo(valkyre).

P.S. I wrote this earler but got disconnected and took me a hell of along time to write I was pissed heh, anyways finally got about to writing it up again. thanks for listening to my opinions


People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

posted 09-08-01 01:37 AM EDT (US)     16 / 63  
Fisenflycht, I say that bone horrors and wraiths are the only units where it is really useful to turn undead. Reapers with 10 resistance are fairly immune to it. The level 2 units can be handled in straight melee combat though sure you could still turn them.
posted 09-08-01 01:46 AM EDT (US)     17 / 63  
Frogman, well, I shan't reply to the personal insults. But a few points.

Defense 4 is simply not enough for an elite heavy hitter. Karaghs have better raw offense than Demons and better mobility in combat (no mountains and no water), but archers and ballista chew right through them, because they too have only 4 shields. Ever try to hold off an attacking force of ballistae and archers with Demons? Good luck. Demons aren't fast enough to close to melee in one round, they have to endure one round of massed fire -- and they can't survive it. Whereas a defense heavy unit like a Warlord has a much better chance of at leasting surviving a few rounds to do some damage.

As for the Titan, stat wise, the Warlord is superior. As for a Titan's skills, First Strike is far more useful against cheapie units a Titan can kill in one attack than it is against an opponent that can go several rounds with the Titan -- like the Warlord. In that case, the Warlord's better raw offense and defense begin to count heavily. As for the Titan's Fire Immunity, this can be handy against the few creatures who have fire attacks, such as a Red Dragon. But Fire Attacks generally aren't a problem. Against other melee units, it's irrelevant. So, what we have is, Titan has more skills attached to its name, but they dont do much for its main function.

As for the Bone Horror, its a glorified wall crusher in FC. I dont know, maybe most of you play multi using TC, which I cant imagine, I dont have that much time to sink into a single on line game. In FC every opposing unit targets the Bone Horror at some point. When that happens it doesnt have the Shields to survive. Up to that point, it doesnt have the raw offense to do much damage. I agree it is a great meat shield using TC. But then, when you talk TC, you're probably talking single play, in which case you dont need frills, the AI just isnt that good.

Anyway, try it. Take an 8-stack of Warlords against an 8-stack of Titans, have them FC a few dozen times. The Warlord will win more often than not. Try it with Bone Horrors and Demons too, for a laugh, those regenerating Bone Horrors go down one at a time per round, while not doing much damage to Warlords. Same with Demons.

[This message has been edited by Tortfeasor (edited 09-08-2001 @ 02:09 AM).]

posted 09-08-01 01:58 AM EDT (US)     18 / 63  
Oops, quick follow up on the numbers. I think you missed my point, its not a question of everything is all fine and equal if the sum of all stats ends up being same. 10 Attack and 4 Damage is *far* worse than 7 Attack and 7 Damage I think you'd agree. That was my point, when I said the Valk is out of balance. The Valk can hit a lot, but it far too often cant even hurt a swordsman with its pathetic 3 Damage. You need the two in balance so you can get some consistency in what types of enemies that unit can take on.

A Valk simply cannot take on a real heavy hitter at all, and cannot go long against even medium hitters, it would get shredded and you would lose the advantage of flying, which is what you're paying for. A Valk is meant to fly around and chew up archers, its not good for much else. And the thing is, I have plenty of units that can tear up archers, and I dont have to pay 2 upgrades and 85 per unit for them. So Valk becomes a scout. An expensive one.

posted 09-08-01 08:26 AM EDT (US)     19 / 63  
For taking a walled city (like an independent 1 or 2-hex with basic defenders), I find Demons quite useful. You can get in there and take out one of the archers before they can fire at you. Then if there's not that many more, you can probably take out the rest of the archers with minimal damage. The swordsmen can wait. They can only hit you with retaliatory strikes, and they won't move. So if you're too damaged to risk attacking another swordsman, retreat, regenerate, and come back next turn. With 6/6, you can usually kill any level 1's on the first strike, so I've never had to retreat. They get medals fairly quick like that, so that makes them even worse.

Fairies (as well as any concealed unit) are more useful in MP. I remember one game where I zipped over to another player's territory and grabbed his power node, a 1-hex (walled), and a mine or two. He informed me that "that's only annoying". Yeah, well duh! Point is, that's 10 mana for my pool until you send a swordsman over to reclaim it. Not to mention the 30+ gold from the mines and that city. You'll need a battering ram to get that, unless it revolts from me, which hopefully it will, since buying it back will cost you more than producing a ram (and give you more units requiring upkeep than a single ram). And unless you keep a force behind, you'll never stop me from stealing them again. BECAUSE I'M A FAIRY! There's plenty of forest around here, and the only way you'll ever find me is if you give your hero True Seeing (and keep him behind, instead of at the head of your army). Sadly, that game crashed and was never resumed. Just as well, who wants an opponent who sneers with contempt at another player's intelligent use of a "useless" unit's strengths?

posted 09-08-01 08:56 AM EDT (US)     20 / 63  
Tortfeasor, if you, as you say, are new to the game I think you should be a little more careful with what you say. There is a big difference between ‘valkyries have no use’ and ‘I haven’t found any uses for the valkyries’ or ‘valkyries doesn’t fit my style of play’.

I think it is quite interesting that people here have found the valkyries so useful. I personally have never used them that much. Does that make everybody saying they are useful wrong? Certainly not, it just means that other people responded differently to different problems and found different solutions (possibly, or maybe even probably, better then mine). I have only played this game for a little over half a year but my playing style has changed a lot since I started. When I started I also thought orcs were invincible, I don’t do that anymore. If you are interested you can read about the reasons why in this or this post. Here are some comments about what you said in your posts:

Quote:
Any flyer without high defences or a ranged attack is nothing more than a glorified scout

The ability to fly is a big thing to any unit and sometimes all it takes is a scout. When fighting human players it quickly becomes very important to gather all your troops into a few large groups instead of spreading them out. This often means leaving your home territory undefended. In that situation 3 valkyries sneaking in behind your lines can be a disaster and the end of the war.

Quote:
Defence is probably the most important stat of the game, a single point of defence is worth several in it hit points.

Defence is important, especially on heroes but if you use large groups of units (instead of focusing on lonely heavy hitters) bad defence (or low hit points) will get a lower significance.

Quote:
10 Attack and 4 Damage is *far* worse than 7 Attack and 7 Damage I think you'd agree

Nope. Against an opponent with 5 in defence a A10, D4 attack will do an average damage of 2,4 points. A A7, D7 attack will do 3,1. That is a little better. Against a unit with defence 10 (you’d be surprised how many heroes with defence 10 there are running around in a multiplayer game) the A10, D4 attack will do 1,4 points of damage compared to 1,1 for the A7, D7 attack.

[This message has been edited by Fisenflycht (edited 09-08-2001 @ 09:09 AM).]

posted 09-08-01 09:32 AM EDT (US)     21 / 63  
Since there's 3 alignments, it's pointless to argue which single race is the best. So you say the Undead level 3's are the best? I'm Halflings, that does me no good. You can say "I'll take a Warlord over a Titan any day", but if you're playing Elves, you'll need about 5 or 6 Satyrs in that Warlord's stack just to keep him happy. So we ought to break this down by alignment:

Halflings: A useful mix of units. A flying scout, a stealth unit, and a heavy cavalry with archery. Try using an 8-stack of Rogues to take a city. With Wall-Climbing, there's no need to wait for someone to smash down a wall. Eagle Rider? Always useful (cheaper than the other races, and as per my post above, the Fairy's Concealment is only useful against human players). Centaurs? Great bodyguards.

Frostlings: Do I have to explain this? Just look at the competition. Out of 9 other units, you got Cavaliers and Wyvern Riders.

Goblins: Another useful mix. A flying scout, a combat brute, and a heavy cavalry. The Troll is tough. They pack a mean punch and can usually take out the opposition before taking too much damage, with Regeneration that low def isn't as big a handicap (next turn they'll be back to full strength, but you'll have to heal a Warlord). The Big Beetle, well, there's a Goblin riding it, so that makes it heavy cavalry... They're mighty fast, 13hp, can smash walls and tunnel. Very useful, and like the Centaur, you can use them as bodyguards (with 40mp, it's your Leader that will slow your Beetles down).

But if that's true about the Rogue, why didn't I go with Orcs for evil (likewise, if it's true about Trolls and Beetles, why didn't I go with Dwarves). Well, that's my personal preference, those would be my second choices in any case. Warlords don't have any role except combat. They have no other skills. What functions they perform can be made up for by a stack of lesser units. The Big Beetle can tunnel and smash walls. To me, that makes it more valuable.

posted 09-08-01 11:47 AM EDT (US)     22 / 63  
Draco and I had a big debate on the value of the warlord vs the titan. I ran 8 stacks of warlords against 8 stacks of titans and the warlords win about 60%. Not so overwhelming that the titan has to cower in fear.

Titans have a big advantage in first strike, which you seem to downplay. First strike was considered so good it was removed from the list of hero upgrades and now is only available through the editor.

Fire immunity is great against the ai's love of flame throwers. A titan can mow through a stack untouched They can walk on lava and force Red Dragons into combat. Thats hardly inconsequential.

To top it off, a titan has 36 movement which allows him to run with the heroes. Warlords always frustrate me with their slow speed.

I agree with Aqualung that you don't often have to choose between titans and warlords due to alignment issues, but still I can't see how you favor the slight head to head melee advantage of the warlord over the three big advantages of the titan.

It is also pointless to compare melee ability of the flyers with a karagh or even a warlord. It is not their function. What you need out of a flyer is the ability to scout ahead and take independant cities that are guarded by 4 or 5 units, usually a mix of archers and swordsman. Doom bats are definitely inferior at this task. Valkyrie, Demons and Wyvern are all proficient.

Regarding bone horrors and tc combat. tc combat is a big part of multiplayer whether its pbem or online. Bone horrors with stone skin and enchanted weapon are brutes, no doubt about it. Even without enchantment, bone horrors hit hard. Sure, an fc combat running into stacks of archers is bad news for the bone horror, but presumably you have a pile of other units with him that benefit from his taking the role of pin cushion. 19 hp takes a lot of arrows.

Well tort, there's my retort

posted 09-08-01 12:19 PM EDT (US)     23 / 63  

Well, this certainly is a robust discussion!

Quoted from tortfeasor:
Demons *are* fragile. Defense 4, 10 hit points. Regeneration won't make up for the speed with which these guys bleed hit points against heavy hitters like Titans, Karaghs, and Warlords.

I don't think people truly understand how to exploit the Undead's regeneration ability. People have this mindset that if the battle can't be won in one turn, then it's not worth figthing.

Recently, I had 1 demon take out the following stack: 2 Titans, 4 Archers, 2 Saints. However, it took me 5 turns to do it, which I didn't mind.

Turn one: I took out the archers, was knocked down to 1 HP, and retreated to a mountain hex.

Turn two: Took out the Saints, down to 2 HP and Silver Medaled. Retreated again.

Turns three-five: Took out the Titans, always fighting until my very last few HP and then retreating at my leisure.

You have to use hit and run tactics with the Undead. Unless, of course, you can have a strie force of about 4 demons. Demons always hit hard with a high attack and damage. Then they can run away and live to fight at full strength the very next day.

Personally, I don't like the Valks much b/c I think they die too quickly and ususally I don't have the mana to pump them all up, but I know Froggy likes them (well, maybe he likes looking at their asses on that horse, but I digress).

Tortfeasor, you don't happen to be a colleague, do you? A law student or attorney perhaps?

posted 09-08-01 12:42 PM EDT (US)     24 / 63  
Yes, but unless you are fighting the AI hitting and running is rarely an option, is it?
posted 09-08-01 12:52 PM EDT (US)     25 / 63  
Atleast Frogman acknowledges me. So I will return the favor.

First Strike is a deadly ability. You don't usually see it except for the Pikeman and Goblin Spearman. And you know how annoying they can be to fight.

In one unfortunate example, in an MP game I had 2 stacks of mostly Pony Riders, and I attacked the Highman Leader. Dude must have had his Settings on "Always FC", because I never got the chance to select. Anyway, every single one of my Pony Riders charged his Titan. They died. They didn't cause a single hitpoint of damage.

If it had been a Warlord, many Pony Riders would have died. But so would the Warlord.

So the Warlord has 1 more point of Def. The Titan can (and will) kill any lesser unit that attacks it before the Titan's Def ever becomes a factor.

posted 09-08-01 02:41 PM EDT (US)     26 / 63  
Heh, some strongly opinionated people in here, which is great. I am, too. Some additional comments.

I guess the whether you go TC or FC will determine how useful certain units and skills are. How often you TC just might be the big difference between my take versus those of others.

On Valks, my point wasnt that the Valk is useless, any flying unit with good speed is useful. My point was the Valk is not a good fighter.

Oh, and btw, a quirk of this game is that terrain affects flight. The person who said Doom Bats move 3 hexes less, that is true on only wide open terrain. I dont know about you guys but I tend to end my scout's turns on a mountain hex or some inaccessible spot so he doesnt get popped.

Finally, re the numbers thing once more, heh, another person that runs numbers in games. I think a key issue here is that it is desirable to *frontload* damage. Against elite units this isnt as big a deal as the kill will take several rounds anyway. But frontloaded damage such as a 7-7 will give you versus a 10-4, means those pesky level 1 units who seem to have a miraculous ability to hit you for cheap 1 point shots all the time, die in one hit versus 2. An attack of 7 is sufficient to hit level 1 units, indeed most units, you dont need 10. My point is that an insane number of Swords is overkill against most units, whereas more damage is always useful. BTW this is why Stars cost more than Swords I think, Frogman.

Again, in FC, frontloaded damage is the difference between winning and losing sometimes, and in all cases makes a huge difference in how many units you lose.

posted 09-08-01 02:42 PM EDT (US)     27 / 63  
as regards to the hit and run tactics, in a MP game if the unit cant climb mountains or swim into the water, you can pin em, retreat, pin em, retreat, and so on, without swimming or mountaineering they cant chase after you and most units have some slow unit along with em slowing them down.....course the player isnt just gonna sit there and take it but your demon can hunt em down and retreat to the mountains or the water on the other side, more effective against the AI, but hit and run tactics deployed but rogues and assassins are more nuisances against players

People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

posted 09-08-01 10:03 PM EDT (US)     28 / 63  
The Valkyrie are more than just a pretty ass. You say the Valkyrie is weak on damage but you forget they have charge. That's +2 damage on the first swing and as a flyer, going against ground units they get half their shots at 5 damage. Also, with holy strike they have a good shot at lowering the defense which means your hits will have a higher minimum damage. I have had valkyrie beat demons in pbem games, units don't fight as well with stars over their heads. Of the level 3 fighters, valkyrie are right up there behind the nordic glow (which we all agree I guess is the number one level 3 flyer).

Demons are slower and part of the trouble they have in one on one fights with valkyrie is that the valkyrie gets the initial attack. If she hits holy strike the demon is really in trouble. I got to admit I like regeneration though.

This talk about strategies not working in mp and only good for ai is shortsighted. Every mp game either online or pbem has piles of ai forces, either computer players or independants. The whole game boils down to a race at the start and whoever can claim more independant and ai structures is certainly going to have an advantage. This is where the attack, heal and reattack strategy of regeneration or plain old healing for that matter comes in.

Many times I have attacked, retreated, healed and attacked again the next turn. Flyers are great for that if you have regen or a healer a few hexes away. Its not just a single player strategy. Being good at exploiting the ai is certainly a part of mp. Its a little easier in pbem where you can use tc on the computer. Online to me is much trickier since most games won't allow tc against the ai and for lairs its definitely not allowed. Lairs in online games are many times tougher than tc mode where you usually can fight defenders one at a time.

Oh well, back to the topic. I would take a level 3 undead city over any other choice.

[This message has been edited by Frogman (edited 09-08-2001 @ 10:15 PM).]

posted 09-09-01 01:52 AM EDT (US)     29 / 63  
the valkyres strenght isnt in its damage, and I'd rather have a unit that has 7 att. 7 damage and a normal strike, but I'd rather have a unit with 10 att. and 4 dam. + some status strike. heh Vertigo can be deadly the high attack makes it likely to go off, the movement is nice, charge is just a way to aliviate the low damage on the first strike, after that their most likely vertigoed and -2 def and -2 attack, making it harder for it to hit the valk, and easier for the valk to hit the critter

People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

posted 09-09-01 12:55 PM EDT (US)     30 / 63  
They're All Bad! Just trying to stir things up, but I honestly don't make level 3s much. IMHO, the secret to success is making archers, priests, and level 4 units.

For me, the value of a level 3 depends on the quality of the level 4s. For example, giants are a good level 3 unit, because the firstborn is a weak level 4. Giants can take cities, which is absolutely crucial. And they can combat air galleys, dragons, etc. The firstborn is meat against galleys, black dragons. The same is true of the undead. Wraiths can take cities on their own and fight to a draw against flyers, while reapers go down. But even for these guys, I could migrate to a side that has good level 4s.

I don't think it matters how these level 3s compare to human or frostling or orc level 3 units, because you want to go for galleys or drakes or red dragons instead (though the nordic glow is tempting sometimes). Avatars and basilisks are right behind them. Plus, I'd rather have archers, priests or ballistae/catapults than the level 3s if you don't have a four hex city.

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