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Topic Subject: Freezing and stunning
posted 01-07-02 10:50 AM EDT (US)   
The chance of secondary effects taking place is supposed to be 50% + (attack-resistance)x10%. However lihtning damage somehow seems to stun more often tha cold damage freezes. Does anyone have any proof and/or knows the exact chances of succes?

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.

[This message has been edited by LordDragatus (edited 01-07-2002 @ 10:51 AM).]

Replies:
posted 01-07-02 05:15 PM EDT (US)     1 / 27  
Maybe it's because the stun effect only lasts for one turn, while the freeze lasts for several turns.
posted 01-07-02 06:47 PM EDT (US)     2 / 27  
This is some of the little known facts in AoW...

Every kind of damage/effect has a (hidden) "attack value" that is compared to resistance to calculate if the attacked unit is affected or not (using the formula LordDragatus has written above) . That "attack value" is the same no matter how the unit is attacked.

For example: The "attack value" that is used to calculate if a unit that is taking lightning damage is stunned is 6.
It is always 6 no matter if the damage come from a lighting strike (the attack value of the attacking unit will not affect the value), a lightning bolt or a spell.

One of the developers once told us what those "hidden attack values" was but it is a very long time ago so I am a little unsure about some of them

"hidden attack values":

Lightning = 6
Poison, fire, death and holy = 4 (some of these may be only 3)
Cold = 3 (may be only 2)


Other "attack values":

Entangle = 7
Dominate, invoke death = 6
Possess, charm = 5
Seduce, web = 4 (in warlock's (and Lighthawk's) rules seduce has an attack of 7!!)

Kris

[This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 01-07-2002 @ 06:49 PM).]

posted 01-07-02 10:55 PM EDT (US)     3 / 27  
you can see hidden attack values in tactical combats. just choose the type of attack and read the attack and damage value above the ability list. it's somewhere around there, not hard to spot. then, you don't have to worry about outdated info.

Bright was the moon and deep the night;
The stars twinkled, of great delight.
With wings of dream, I searched my soul
To know its truth and find my role.

By French Kisser, a chaser after and believer in true and ingenuous romance.

posted 01-08-02 06:09 AM EDT (US)     4 / 27  
No you can't !
The attack values you can see in TC for missile and breath attacks is the chance of that attack to do damage and is compared to defense, the chance of any secondary effect of to take effect rely on the "hidden attack values" I have written above those are compared to resistance only if any damage is done.

One example:
A frostling shaman is shooting a frost bolt on a human swordsman.
The attack value of 6 displayed in TC is compared to the swordsman's defense of 2:
50% + (6-2)x10% = 90% of making a hit.
If a hit is made the "hidden attack value" of cold damage (3) is compared to the swordsman's resistance of 3:
50% + (3-3)x10% = 50% of freezing the swordsman
The chance to hit and freeze the swordsman is 90% x 50% = 45%

Another one:
A hero with 10 attack and lightning strike is attacking an orc warlord.
The hero's attack of 10 is compared to the warlord's defense of 6:
50% + (10-6)x10% = 90% of making a hit.
If a hit is made the "hidden attack value" of lighting damage (6) is compared to the warlord's resistance of 5:
50% + (6-5)x10% = 60% of stunning the warlord
The chance to hit and stun the warlord is 90% x 60% = 54% for every strike

The attack values you can see in TC for touch abilities (Entangle, Dominate, Invoke death, Possess, Charm, Seduce, Web and Turn undead) however is the one that is compared to resistance. The unit's attack value is compared to defense to see if a "touch" is made.

One example:
A doom priest is trying to dominate a human swordsman.
The doom priest's attack value of 3 is compared to the swordsman's defense of 2:
50% + (3-2)x10% = 60% of "touching" the swordsman.
If a touch is made the attack value of dominate of 6 is compared to the swordsman's resistance of 3:
50% + (6-3)x10% = 80% of dominating the swordsman.
This make the overall chance of dominating the swordsman 48% (60% x 80%)

Kris

posted 01-09-02 01:15 AM EDT (US)     5 / 27  
i see. thank you for the clarification, kris.

Bright was the moon and deep the night;
The stars twinkled, of great delight.
With wings of dream, I searched my soul
To know its truth and find my role.

By French Kisser, a chaser after and believer in true and ingenuous romance.

posted 01-09-02 07:24 AM EDT (US)     6 / 27  
Thanks.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 05-23-02 05:24 AM EDT (US)     7 / 27  
While playing the Keepers campaign I noticed that no matter how many times I cast chain lightning I never could stun a machine.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 12-13-03 11:30 AM EDT (US)     8 / 27  
I've stunned machines.
?????????
posted 12-13-03 03:02 PM EDT (US)     9 / 27  
Then perhaps I was just unlucky.

Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 12-18-03 03:18 PM EDT (US)     10 / 27  
It was a while ago, and I seem to remember noticing Lightning Protection on it, which is wrong - I might be thinking of cold...
posted 01-17-04 09:48 AM EDT (US)     11 / 27  
Another thing to remember in all combat situations is that the outcomes of the 'dice-rolls' which determine if an attack is successful or not are influenced by the pseudo-random number generator in AoW: specifically, what seed number it is currently set to. The seed number is changed every time you move a party, set production, cast a spell etc. Therefore if you just keeping loading a game and playing it in FC you will get exactly the same results as long as you do exactly the same things beforehand. AI decisions (e.g. movement) are influenced in the same way.

I think.


===================================== Alphax =====================================
============= LASFS Operative #4 =============
The VoW Inn
"I'll bribe you to change the inn link in your sig." -- TDK
================================================================================
posted 01-18-04 10:12 AM EDT (US)     12 / 27  
I didn't replay the combat. I just had my wizard leader cast chain lightning 3 or more times and the cataplt or ballista or whatever it was (don't remember exactly) never got stunned. Which sort of made sense (how is one supposed to stunn a wooden machine with electricity?)

edit: I think this happened in more than one combat.

I'd need to do a proper test (like a storm priest vs. 6 stacks of 8 battering rams) to check, but I'm too lazy to do it.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.

[This message has been edited by LordDragatus (edited 01-18-2004 @ 10:14 AM).]

posted 01-18-04 12:36 PM EDT (US)     13 / 27  
I noticed the way dice rolls keep turning out the same way. So I just load, move the party one space, and attack again.
posted 02-01-04 11:51 AM EDT (US)     14 / 27  
The freezing/stunning system seems to work the same as attacking if post 1 is correct, but critical hits/misses haven't been mentioned; is it impossible for some secondary effects to work on some units?

Come to think of it, I haven't frozen any Reapers...

posted 02-01-04 01:04 PM EDT (US)     15 / 27  
lightning strike is best, cause it works often
frost strike is nice addition but not that important if you plan to make a good warrior leader and have less creation points, better take lightning strike and something else like life steal, doom gaze etc.

[This message has been edited by DarkMystery (edited 02-01-2004 @ 01:04 PM).]

posted 02-01-04 05:39 PM EDT (US)     16 / 27  

Quote:

Come to think of it, I haven't frozen any Reapers...

With their 10 resistance that's less surprizing than it may seem at first. Also, they have lightning protection so you proboably don't use lightning attacks and spells on them too often. Another thing worth considering is how often do you fight against them.

However, come to think of it I don't really remember stunning any undead. This might be worth testing.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.

[This message has been edited by LordDragatus (edited 02-01-2004 @ 05:40 PM).]

posted 02-16-04 11:49 AM EDT (US)     17 / 27  
1. No-one has answered my question.
2. I have DEFINITELY stunned undead.
posted 02-20-04 02:08 PM EDT (US)     18 / 27  
1. Er ... you can't poison units with poison immunity.

Seriously, many forms of attack that target resistance don't work on certain units (you can't seduce undead or possess machines) so I wouldn't be surprized if it turned out that certain units are immune to certain secondary effects. I however didn't make any proper tests so I can't confirm this theory (yet).

2. Oops. I thought you were talking about stunning, not freezing.

Freezing seems to work much less often than stunning and then there's the Reaper's cold protection (which means you proboably don't use cold attacks as much as you would otherwise), 10 resistance and the question of how often you fight against them.


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
posted 02-21-04 02:46 PM EDT (US)     19 / 27  
1. You STILL haven't answered the question! Does the critical strike/miss principle work on resistance?
2. Undead are fearless, which also works on charm. Machines are machines. I normally get cold, lightning, and possibly death or poison strike to go with life stealing (of course), so I've used cold on a lot of reapers. Like when I cheated on Athendore ().
posted 02-27-04 10:13 AM EDT (US)     20 / 27  
1. I always asumed it did. If it didn't that would make it impossible to stun/burn/freeze/etc. Reapers and Leprechauns. Dragons and Unicorns would also be immune to every secondary effect except stunning and entagle and I'm rather sure I already saw a poisoned Unicorn.

2. Fearless works on Charm/Seduce? That's a new one for me. Are you sure it's true?


Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.

[This message has been edited by LordDragatus (edited 02-27-2004 @ 10:14 AM).]

posted 02-27-04 11:06 AM EDT (US)     21 / 27  
2. No it doesn't. It's just that you can't seduce/charm "undead unit"

/Eriksson
Life is nothing but a game
poe@telia.com

[This message has been edited by Eriksson (edited 02-27-2004 @ 11:06 AM).]

posted 03-18-04 02:22 PM EDT (US)     22 / 27  
10-resistance units can be stunned; 50+100-60=10%
posted 03-20-04 02:07 PM EDT (US)     23 / 27  
We all know that, if entangle works, lightning works, there is only a 1 attack difference.

I have written 50% of all the guides for guides in the AoW1 strategy section
posted 11-07-04 11:14 AM EDT (US)     24 / 27  
Critical strikes do work with hidden attack/resistance rolls. I can send a picture of a frozen reaper to anyone who wants one.
posted 11-13-04 08:44 PM EDT (US)     25 / 27  
simple thing to say, if you got hit by lightning, its speed would increase the chance AND lightning gos to metal aka armor while the ice attack just freezes you, with no speed increases it has a lower chance, there i said what i think is a simple way to answer yoor question.

I learn, I gain, I grow, learn from your allies and your enemys, dont make the same mistake they do, LEARN, some units are not fighters.
posted 11-15-04 03:45 PM EDT (US)     26 / 27  
AoW isn't like that...
It's more about numbers.
Edit: I'll expand a bit more. The way strikes work is described somewhere in this post or a similar one, which a search will find. The way side effects work is described in this thread, near the top. I was wondering if critical strikes (Which guarantee a hit) worked in such calculations. They do, since without them 2 or 3 hidden-attack wouldn't freeze a unit with 10 resistance.

[This message has been edited by Dvorak (edited 11-15-2004 @ 03:53 PM).]

posted 11-18-04 02:30 PM EDT (US)     27 / 27  
"expand a bit more" doesn't make much sense, since I hadn't already expanded.
Anyway, I will now expand a bit more, Galo.
When a unit or attack attempts to strike a unit, a random number out of 10 is generated. If it is 1, the strike is a critical miss, and misses no matter what. If it is 10, it is a critical hit and will definitely do maximum damage. Otherwise, it is compared to the attacker's attack minus the defender's defence plus 5 and this determines whether or not it hits. If it hits, damage is generated somehow, but I don't know how.
Here's an example:
Attack 5 versus defence 5.
If 1, critical miss.
If 2, miss.
If 9, hit & randomly generated damage.
If 10, critical hit & maximum damage.
If you were to complete this, you would find that the probability of hitting is 50%.
This system guarantees that any unit with appropriate strike capabilities can hit any unit, and makes fighting units with 4 less attack than your defence dangerous (in a mental way), because they will always do full damage to you when they're lucky enough to hit.
The chance of secondary effects working is very similar(The hidden attack value of the secondary effect is compared to resistance), but no-one could be bothered to say whether critical strikes or misses work in such calculations. They do, because the hidden attack of freezing is more than 5 lower than a Reaper's resistance and could only work through a critical strike.

To all: Fearless seems to be losing its touch. I got a seduced Doom Priest in recent FC.

[This message has been edited by Dvorak (edited 11-18-2004 @ 02:44 PM).]

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