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Topic Subject: Lizardmen Strategy revised
posted 09-13-01 11:37 PM EDT (US)   
Okay Roger sent two of these cause of alittle mishap he added a few things onto my old one some quotes from the discussion that he took in part as a whole. I wanted to redo the whole thing and I did, but he already sent the other version while I was working on another and when I finished with it I passed it on to him and he told me he sent the other but sent that one in anyways. Niether have gone up and this still isnt the completely version I want to get the unit GIF's in there I just need to stick the URL's in if I can find out what they are. But for I guess the most updated version here goes cause it seems its gonna take awhile before it gets processed.


The Lizard Strategy
Original draft by Shadows Oasis, retyped by Roger the Rampant

Well I love these guys they can be so much fun, but a lot of people find them very difficult to play. Theyíre much like the Azracs where they are the best on their own turf, the problem is their own turf is the water. So if thereís not enough of it your gonna find yourself at a disadvantage.

Heroes

Spell Casters

  • lizards/frogs have naturally low defense and resistance, so they'll use up too many training points to upgrade, spells will boost that, and the water book, which you should have all four spheres in no matter what, has very damaging spells such as hail storm, geyser, and ice shards.

  • Also you'd want to strive for spell casting five. While training your hero or leader, slack back on the attack, focus on defense and resistance a bit, strive for spell casting IV or V, just donít neglect defense. The spells you'll be able to use will counter the weak attack, but it donít mean jack if you can kill a horde but get struck down by a few swordsmen.

  • I usually start off with spell casting II, make my attack 5, then pour whatís left into defense. Next level, up the defense some more then go for spell casting, resistance needs to be boosted along the way, but your greatest fear in the beginning of the game is really being hit by a blade and not a spell

  • Another thing thatís good to do is when your start off and it ask you to choose a spell, close it without choosing a spell, then click on your heroís spell casting ability and look at what spells you already know, then go to the Magic tab, click the research button and research any spell you wish to add on, this is helpful for if you already have Ice Shards from the start you donít need to research another spell and its good to research something else like water healing.

  • Adjust the tab on researching I usually start off with something around 5 income, 10 research, this is possible with spell casting II, this will research things in twice the time as you would with spell casting I and keep the same income, the main importance is not income its getting the spells out, you can pour more into research if you can find some mana crystals early, donít hinder your casting by having very little mana ďbankedĒ. Also if your going to research Ice Shards you can set it to 4/11 this will actually bring it out one turn sooner, main thing is to play with the tab to find a place where its suited for the income you need to cast spells, but will make your spells come out faster. The income/research is up to your discretion and style of play

    Melee Heros

  • Lizard have naturally low attack and resistance, but this doesnít mean you cant make a Super hero out of him, on maps where there isnít enough water for the use of spells like vortex, water walking, and flood, the Melee hero is the better option

  • Items found in caves and ruins will greatly help the low defense and damage, also note though any item that helps a melee hero will help a spell-casting hero, so often if you have the right items you can have both.

  • In most maps that feature lizardmen youíll have decent amount of water to use them. Also all maps that come with AOW that feature Lizardmen have good amounts of water, but when it comes to maps made by players youíll find some that have Lizardmen without any water.

  • Melee Super Heros are always dangerous no matter what race, theyíre just harder to achieve with some, if Spell casting isnít your thing then donít worry about getting it as Lizardmen, because even though it is harder for a Lizard Hero to become a super hero it is still possible.

  • Spells take a lot of turns to come out if you donít manage them well, also unless you happen to be lucky on the items, which isnít really that rare just have to beat the others to the items, youíll need support troops with you this may or may not hinder you, in fact sometimes its actually more helpful but most of the times itíll slow your spread across the map while a super hero can single handedly run around the map claiming things.


    General Heros

  • Lizardmen have low defense and resistance but whether you choose to train your hero as a Melee hero or a Spell Caster itís a hindrance in a stat that you should have whether youíre a spell caster or melee hero.

  • The low resistance and defense becomes more clearly evident in warlocks rules where most lizard men start off with 1 def and 1 resist. But the attack and damage are also capped and limited as well so in Warlocks rules its better to use a spell caster in a normal game its up to you.

  • Higher-level spells take awhile to come out; this can be easily countered if you learn how to adjust the tab and control mana income. But youíll have to experiment in Single Player before you go out and try to make a quick acting spell caster. If your not sure you can get the spells you want out before the game is over, your better not making a real spell caster a hybrid or melee hero is good. Personally I prefer hybrids.

  • Always try to have atleast 6 attack and 5 damage, this doesnít take much to achieve and really last you awhile. Also you can have 5 attack and 4 damage with enchanted weapon boosting it that would give you the 6 attack and 5 damage. Seeing as most heroís start off with 5 attack you can get these from the start.

    Spells, Spells, Spells!

    Flood: this is why you need the big spell casting, spell casting I or II ainít gonna cut it, you want to get this spell out as early as you can. Hit the magic tab, in the Main menu click the Power Distribution button, and move the adjuster towards research, away from mana. Play with the power adjustment to speed up research, cast the Flood spell as soon as possible, this will cause the seas and rivers to overflow in a few turns which means you just expanded your territory. These guys own the water, the more there is of it, the better off you are. Also on the plus side, shipyards need to be placed near water and any existing shipyard when this is cast will be floating in the water, so the ownerís troops canít get to it unless they can fly or swim. Cast haste on a frog rider and it hops around claiming everybodyís shipyards. That said, donít be foolish enough to just send one because they might be guarded

    Ice Shards: 4 attack, 4 damage, repetition 3 and long range means a ranged attack that can do up to 12 damage (I've killed many warlords with this spell so donít knock it, also with spell casting V you can cast it six turns in a row before running out of channeling points) This spell is also a dragon killer. Dragons have high defense, it doesnít matter, the shards if they hit will do 4 damage anyway so it'll take out 4,8,12 damage every time itís cast, just takes a few of these to hit Ďem where it hurts most

    Hail Storm: this spell is very useful. You can skip it, but you must get ice shards and flood, and since ya need to research two lvl 3 spells to be able to research lvl 4 spells ya might as well get this sucker, it does 5 attack 5 damage long range repetition 3 in a seven hex area, plus it does wall damage, its a mana eater though (with spell casting V it still leaves you 20 channelling points to wreck havoc with). This spell requires at least spell casting III to cast because its a combat spell that uses 30 channeling points (ouch) but it does the job, and if you donít want to use it against units you can take out three wall hexes with it, and you will take them out and it leaves a big hole for your troops to march in

    Vortex: you'll want this spell as lizardmen, for any other race its pointless because youíre better off sending a powerful flyer or another boat to clash with it. This spell does a lot of damage to one hex, save it for boats not other flying units, most of the time it'll hit with 9 damage on boats which means if you have spell casting V you can do 18 damage and leave a dragonship very weak for your boats to attack. Yes, your boats - just coz your units are all mighty water treaders doesnít mean they can stand up to boats. Boats have a lot of health and can take down most lizardmen units, so itís always good to have a dragonship or two for backup, killing off boats. This can also be used for dragons coming in and trying to fly over your waters. I suggest combining haste with this spell. Your hero comes in, does itís damage to whatever units are there and swims away before it gets attacked.

    Geyser: Attacks twice and the target doesnít need to be in direct range. It doesnít do a lot of damage and in FC walls arenít counted in. I donít take this spell personally but in TC it can sometimes have its advantages because it can hit units hiding behind the walls. I find the other spells more useful, but this spell has its uses.

    Frost beam: This spell has a high attack rate (8) but low damage (3), do to the fact it does cold damage though and has an area affect it can freeze most units and turn them into an ice cube. This spell can be fun but other spells are useful, can be handy in TC again its fault is in FC though. Also, it doesnít work very well against undead and frostling units. (Frostling units either have cold immunity or cold protection, all Frostlings have cold protection but some of their creatures have immunity. All undead units have cold protection and some are Immune to it)

    Liquid Form: Okay this spell will seriously boost your defenses. Now it can be dispelled, but any attacking units that donít have a cleric or a hero with them, it basically doubles your hitpoints coz you only take half physical damage. Now like I said, spells and bolts itís not gonna help ya with, but you can always heal yourself with healing water. Unfortunately the swimming ability doesnít help lizards, but who cares itís just good for the physical protection

    Water Walking: it only takes two spells of each level to advance to the next, I usually take up water walking and Vortex as my level 2 spells. Water walking will help you because it allows non-swimming units to walk on the water so this doesnít slow your already swimming lizard units down, any non-lizard hero would do good with this on as they can supplement your army without slowing them down by having to only use land. Like wise Liquid form also gives swimming but has a much higher mana upkeep. Its more efficient to cast water walking on a group of units the liquid form, the mana needed to keep multiple liquid forms active can really hinder you. This spell also requires less mana to cast, but it doesnít give the Physical protection status that Liquid form provides, Liquid form is much better.

    Healing Water: Undoubtedly one of the best spells, it completely heals a unit. Great for running around killing things, you can use it to completely heal yourself in battle or heal yourself while running to the next city to conquer. Note a lot of players choose not to get the spell cause of the unfairness it creates.

    Strengths and weaknesses of different units
    I didnít mention the level 1 units because there basic units with swimming added to them.

    Giant turtles (turtle ballista, turtle catapult):

    These guys will rule the game if you manage to pull flood out they already have the advantage over most ballistae cause they can just cross the river and strike cities from behind instead of going through the bridges. Now the only thing that you have to fear once flood is out is flyers, and let me ask have ya ever sent a group of flyers head on into a wall of ballistae? It ainít pretty, once flood is out that limits more units from surface cities coming to the rescue, and your ballistae now getta go play in the water and cut right to cities even faster then before. These guys make great body guards, keep your leader back, cast spells at oncoming units, and your ballistae impaling anything else that comes close, while your catapults bust their walls open. One or two frog riders for back up melee support might be helpful, but thatís if the enemy ever gets close enough. Most of the times, unless itís Warlords or other big crush units like that, they get stomped flat by incoming javelins. You may think this hinders your hero increasing levels but actually it doesnít coz you most likely take out a unit every turn with your spells. Iím not saying you definitely will, Iím just saying youíre likely to. Itís the same for melee heroes, unless of course they send em single-handed with no back up at you, heh 10 defense means the ballistae hit max every time, and so will ice shards, which means they are in for a lot of hurt when these things contact. Although they make great backup support too if your trying to move cross land they can hinder you because of there low movement points, but there great if you have enough water to just walk into the city by swimming into it. If there isnít any water on the map turtles are the same as regular siege units accept they can be dominated and healed. 3 ballistae, 2 catapults, and 3 frog riders or Wyverns, are my ideal Lizardmen stack they can break down the walls and hit hard.

    Basilisk:

    What, you expect to win the entire game on siege troops only? Basilisks are great ranged backup, huge health and doom gaze are goodies, plus they can actually strike back when attacked head on. You might want to replace a few turtle ballistae with these guys once they pop out. Also there night vision makes them great for underground exploring, accompanied by a few salamanders they can be a good underground exploring unit.

    Wyverns:

    These guys are just overpowered goblin riders, and I love em. Turtles take a while to get there but can be produced faster and deal more damage, but their movement points can prove to be a hindrance. This is Wyverns kick in, they make great scouts, can take cities quite easily, and poison strike is a good thing to have ... poison is deadly, but common. Having a few of these to fly ahead of you and take out nuisances is good. These guys are strong flyers; if you cast haste on these itís even better. They have high health (12) compared to most of the other level 3 flyers this alone makes them one of the best flyers. Wyverns are great in multiplayer for the fact they can move fast, and are pretty strong flyers that can last awhile, a stack of turtles is undoubtedly more powerful but wyverns can get there faster. Sometimes movement is better then power, sometimes its not, in most cased the quick movement of Wyverns make them good for taking out cities and getting them on the scene quicker. They move 5 hexes more then a turtle that is a big difference. If your choosing to use a Melee hero these guys can provide support that wont slow you down and if they do it isnít by much.

    Lurkers:

    These guys can play some nasty hit and run games. There usefulness is also increased if you can bring flood out. They have water concealment, which makes them ideal for guarding water nodes and taking shipyards. You can also use them as what I like to call them hidden ďminesĒ having a group of them hiding near your territory and just wait till something heads out into the water then leap on them, theyíll never know what hit them (unless they have true seeing of course). Either way rogues and assassins are limited to forest, these guys are limited to water, flood expands the water what else can you want? They have there down sides though; unlike the rogue and assassin they lack a ranged attack and are clearly open in site while on land, but they do have poison strike and have high damage (6). Also they have low movement does hinder them moving across the map but since your using the water as a way to move them its not that hindering.

    Frog Riders:

    These guys can be quick although they donít have the movement points of normal cavalry, they do have swimming which can make up for it. I suggest getting these guys out first as they can conquer cities quicker and bring in the much-needed income faster then the turtles. You can opt for going for siege weaponry first, but these guys can get some cities early on faster, also they make great support troops for your turtles. Turtles have low defense and resistance so they are more often then not in trouble when something gets at melee with it. Frog Riders can be used to divert fire and take out anything that gets near them. I suggest firing on something and if its low on health use the Frog riders to run up and kill them. Most of the time by the time something gets near your ballistae your turtles would have taken it out but big crush units like Warlords and Titans will have the health and defense to make it through, but a few Frog Riders can take out the wounded Warlords and Titans. Frog Riders are not strong, and cannot take a Warlord or Titan straight out, but if the Warlord has low health, thatís a different story. Also if there isnít any water on the map it is often better to produce these guys instead of turtles because of the swiftness factor, turtles are only swift if they have enough water to use it as a short cut.

    Lizard Shamans:

    Shamans are not much more then average priest with the ability to swim which is a great bonus, Also noted that since turtles are the only siege troops that can be healed they prove excellent support for turtles as they can heal the wounded ones.

    Salamanders:

    These guys get a lot of bad press, but are can prove useful underground, the fact that they have fire immunity means that they can cross lava, and there high attack (7) gives them a strong chance of igniting a unit and giving it burning. Also fire immunity forces red dragons into melee combat with them. Mostly these guys are to helpful underground, an underground unit is something that is desperately needed by the lizardmen the Salamander is a sort of reprieve from that, although they cant cause a lot of damage they do have a strong chance of hitting.

    Diplomacy

    Being neutral allows these guys to flex very much on their allies, which is good, you want to ally yourself with an underground race, dwarves or goblins, so you can scout the underground more quickly. If you get flood out quickly and use good strategies the surface is yours, but youíre screwed underground, you need to be on good terms with another race to help out here. You just pop units out from the underground, use their units in a mix with a few of your own. Basilisks, wyverns and salamanders are your only useful underground units, ballistae can be used down here too, but theyíre just plain ol' ballistae crawling in the dirt down there, they only shine topside.

    Spell Spheres

    You must have all four water spheres if available, and most maps lizardmen will play do, I also suggest getting at least one air sphere, more would be better, but you really only need one. On a 7 sphere map I usually play 4 water 3 air, you donít really need life cause water will allow you to heal, turn undead is available to shamen, bless is very beneficial so you might want to take a life tile just for that. Other than that you can just go all out air, if you want to take death instead, dark gift will increase your damage a bit but youíre really just relying on spells if you follow this so itís not needed. You can take up earth and get stone skin to help with the slacking defense, but for that you just get bless and boost resistance as well, stoning...weaker form of ice shards, why would you take it? Gold rush and entangle are the only good things available from earth as Lizardmen, and those arenít really needed when you can freeze things for more mana but open up the water book for flood earlier, so I'd stick with Water and Air, and maybe one life for bless. Air has a lot of useful spells. Haste will let your troops cross the water faster and wind walking helps a lot. Chain lightning is good for when the enemy gets too close and you get paranoid, but I usually donít bother using it. Unless itís a group of units I really gotta fear, like two warlords closing in on me, but then again the ballistae usually blast em away, when two or three warlords get close itís good to use chain lightning. You hope it bounces to the others, then have the ballistae pick off whichever werenít stunned. Next turn you can either frag em or repeat the process

  • Just a little side not for those of you reading this, I figured out a little method to make the AI choose what spells you want to cast in combat. If you learn chain lightning the computer will always cast it because it causes damage to multiple units. When playing PBEM avoid learning chain lightning so you can use the more damage Ice Shards instead, unless of course you want the stun of chain lightning, but chain lightning doesnít often kill, while Ice Shards more then often does. By limiting the spells you can use in combat you force the AI to cast only spells you want it to cast. It will try to cast hail storm to break the wall but since this can only be done once its up to you whether you still want to research it or not. Also, you can choose another level 3 spell which proves quite useful like Fountain of life, or healing shows that will heal your entire party and restore the land to fertile grassland, can counter the path of decay from Reapers.

    Note: If you have three types of tile (e.g. 4 water, 2 air, 1 life) then you can earn mana income from those three types of node. If you only take two types of tile (e.g. 4 water and 3 air) that is one less node type that gives you income. Roger the Rampant

  • I had to redo much of this to make it as general as I possibly could, I would like to thank Roger for reviewing it and fixing whatever spelling errors. I also cleaned it up and made it better. I would also like to thank Frogman who might have unknowingly helped in the creation of this, the original draft was based too much on my personal opinions although they still have not changed, he caused me to make it more general and lessen the opinions in it, I would also have taken all my opinions completely out if it was not for Roger the Rampant who also helped me decided what to edit and what to not, Thank you both whether you knew you helped or not.

    People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

    Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

    [This message has been edited by ShadowsOasis (edited 09-14-2001 @ 00:12 AM).]

  • Replies:
    posted 09-13-01 11:44 PM EDT (US)     1 / 12  
    please add any comments and/or questions to the strategy if you wish if you feel something has to be changed then please post a response I'll try to work it in.

    People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

    Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

    posted 09-14-01 08:02 AM EDT (US)     2 / 12  
    Choosing between making your heroes melee monsters, spell casters or something in between isn't really an option in my opinion. A melee monster will be able to gain experience much faster then a spell caster possibly can. Starting without spell casting might actually get you to spell casting 4 or 5 a lot faster then if you start with spell casting 2 from the start. It's true as you say that a good spell caster can often kill a lot of units with his spells each round. Still, a melee monster might easily kill twice as many. Here are some questions about lizard strategy that I personally would be really interested to read about in a strategy guide.

    What do I do when I have to leave the water and fight on try land to stand a chance? In my opinion many races has much better units available, at the same price (pony riders, orcish swordsmen, pikemen, elven archers, berserkers, giants, warlords, titans). Should I just leave my lizards in the water and build units from another race on land or what?

    If you had to attack an enemy hard and fast in a MP game (after 20-30 days), how would you compose such an attack?

    I see the lizards as the perfect race to raid cities not too far to the coastline. Raiding can be very effective but it will hardly win the war for you. How do I incorporate raiding into a strategy where I can defeat my enemies without having to wait for flood to be cast?

    posted 09-14-01 03:23 PM EDT (US)     3 / 12  
    Roger, is your post different from the WORD document you send to me? Or are they the same?
    posted 09-14-01 04:08 PM EDT (US)     4 / 12  
    coast line raids are often very affective as Lizardmen yes, but I never meant to keep them just as that hmm I guess I'll have to fix it to make it more clear. Wyverns which are very fast and durable flyers make great stacks wherever possible. Frog Riders are faster then ballistae I thought I made a point as that they are good to make in the begining to claim cities early on and bring in income. And as for spell casters being weaker then melee heros on the amount of xp they got thats actually *not* true. Until you get your hero to 10 att. 10 dam. and make him able to take out 8 stacks at a time he wont gain exp faster. Also a spell caster in the begining if you have the right spells actually will gain xp faster. You dont have to believe me on that most people dont gain xp faster but they dont know how to make there spells come out fast and how to use it. As for starting off with spell casting IV maybe that'd be better if you wanna get the spells out even faster but to get spell casting IV out if you start off with a low hero majorly handicaps your attack if something does get near you. I've Taken out armies twice the size of mine because I had spell casting and not melee and in situations where the melee hero would fall. Its all on how you train it. But Im biast on spell casting as you are on melee *grins* thats why I prefer hybrids actually it allows me to train a melee monster that has some form of spell casting that helps me out in tough jams


    And as for you Draco this isnt Roger's post *shakes you* and there very different he sent you two of em one that he did and one that I made after hence the email confusion. This is the one I made after. The one he made was the old version with a couple of quotes stuck in the end from the thread it produced.

    Now how to make it more evident that Lizardmen arent that weak on land.......


    People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

    Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

    posted 09-14-01 09:09 PM EDT (US)     5 / 12  
    Fis: Not really. The higher you go in levels, the more XP you need to reach the next one. So even though it's easy for a "melee monster" to gain XP, he'll need so much that he might not have the chance. Spell Casting V (from not having it at all) costs 100 points, that's 10 levels.
    posted 09-15-01 07:05 AM EDT (US)     6 / 12  
    Developing a good hero is all about how you start. Gaining a few levels quickly during the first turns might easily develop a snowball effect where gaining more and more experience gets easier and easier. I see getting 100 skill points with a good fighter as a lot easier then getting 60 skill points with a spell caster. Letís compare and take a mediocre hero (A3, Def3, Hit10,Dam3), letís give him 40 points to spend on either spell casting 2 or on skills. Iíll use it on skills making the heroes stats (A5, Def8, Hit10, Dam3, Charge).

    As you say, a hero needs much better stats to be sure to take out a stack of eight units on his own. If supported by some healers and some fighting units (that doesnít participate in the fight unless things start to look bad for the hero) my hero can already do that at day 1. He might get unlucky. Then I can call in supporting troops to save the hero and retreat. If he has healers with him he is however very likely to succeed in defeating a stack of eight level 1 units.

    If I get spell casting two and use ice shards my best option would as I see it be to kill two level 2 units. That would give me 4 points of experience, half of what I would get by defeating eight lv 1 units on his own.

    PS. About the raiding function of the lizards. It was not my impression from your article, itís more my personal view of the lizards as a race and what I see as their biggest problem (and if you or anyone else has a way around this problem I would very interested in hearing about it ). They always have the option to return safely to the water when a large enemy approach them and the enemy usually doesnít have the possibility to go after them. But if you want to win the war you will sooner or later have to directly confront the enemy. As I see the lizards as somewhat inferior when it comes to combat skills I feel that I donít have a lot of options. Flood is of course nice but what if I canít get it fast enough, whatís my backup plan then?

    Is it true that the amount of XP needed to reach next level increases when you go up the levels? I have always thought that the number stayed constant (at 15 points or so?). If it increases I would be very interested to know at what levels and to how much it increases, I couldn't find anything about this in the strategy section.

    [This message has been edited by Fisenflycht (edited 09-15-2001 @ 08:04 AM).]

    posted 09-15-01 07:42 AM EDT (US)     7 / 12  
    Draco I did actually send you an email with Shadow Oasis' latest version attached, apologised to you for any inconvenience I had caused you, and explained what had happened
    posted 09-15-01 09:36 AM EDT (US)     8 / 12  
    I prefer the melee monster over the spellcaster. And I agree with Fis that the melee monster will do particularly well in comparison in the early battles. I cant see how anybody can argue against this, just looking at the point that you basically need a level of spellcasting per "spellshot" whereas your melee monster can bash away until his hit points get bad. And that's where I'd use some magic either from supporting clerics or with his own healing water so that off he goes again.

    You need 10 xp to progress a level until level 15 or thereabouts when it jumps to 15 xp and stays there until you (hopefully) get to level 30, when you've got a level 5 spellcaster melee monster!

    posted 09-15-01 07:30 PM EDT (US)     9 / 12  
    now main thing I was looking for was being able to balance out my views cause I am biast against melee monsters although I have created them and to tell ya the truth you know how hard it is to get to level 30? sure it may be easy for a melee hero but I find myself snoring and drooling somewhere around the 20's level a hero cause I got nothing left to do and to put it all into spell casting isnt worth it cause I do more damage then any spell can. Spells give a ranged attack that dont nessessarly do much damage but provide great support for your units. I've had my melee hero practically torn aport by spell caster cause of the high attack rate of some spells, plus the spell caster just got really lucky good thing I had regeneration and grass concealment on though heh. I retreated and hide then engaged again. No doubt a melee monster can take out units alot faster but to get a melee monster without items its faster to get a spell caster out. Thats the truth, and sure your dependent on spells but if your smart enough to train it right your really not. Melee heros gain more exp because of caves and ruins, which is where spell casters really fall short cause they dont have the sight to see that far into the caves to take something out, where a melee hero has the defense and what not to take it out anyways. But in city invasions where sometimes your up against 8 stacks of units in the begining of the game you really have little choice of leading your leader/hero into the fray by himself he'll be killed, where as a spell caster can sit back and lunch spells that can hit multiple oppenents and have huge range. Too often melee monsters get killed by stacks of lvl 1 units. In my view melee monsters are better heros cause you can seperate them from support units that may slow him down, but without spells sometimes its not fun.

    Anyways I just wanted to make sure I didnt leave melee heros out of the question here, because they do cause damage no matter what, but more often then not melee monsters are dependant on items to get them that high were as a spell caster must actually do it per level. But like I said whatever helps a melee monster helps a spell caster.

    Basic starting stats of a lvl 5 leader

    5 attack, 4 damage, 4/5 resist, 4/5 defense.

    from starting off at 5 it would take 10 levels to get defense and resistance up to 10 naturally, attack would take another 5 levels and you'd end up with 5 left over. and Damage would take 6 levels to get to 10. thats umm 21 levels? just to get your melee monster out where as it only takes 10 levels to start off with 0 spell casting to get to V. Not to mention that you normally start off with II so you only need 6 levels to get spell casting V out. That is ofcourse without training anything else and most people pick up abilities here and there, so it actually takes up more. See how important items are to people but items will go both way and spells which will naturally come out faster for a spell caster also boost it so, spell casters can achieve both high spell casting and high attack power with the aid of items and spells I just didnt want to stress this point in cause that would make it biast on the behalf of spell casting


    People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

    Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

    posted 09-16-01 03:02 AM EDT (US)     10 / 12  
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
    from starting off at 5 it would take 10 levels to get defense and resistance up to 10 naturally, attack would take another 5 levels
    and you'd end up with 5 left over. and Damage would take 6 levels to get to 10. thats umm 21 levels
    ------------------------------------------------------------------

    No no, leveling up defense and resistance only cost 5 points per level so leveling up both from 5 to 10 would only cost 50 points, that is only 5 hero levels. Leveling up attack would only take 3 levels with 5 points left over. getting damage to 10, yes that would cost you 6 levels, so all in all you would "only" use 14 hero levels.
    Anyway going for max in all stats right away is not the best way to make a melee monster, after you have got 10 in defense and decent attack and resistance (7 or 8) you will want to get some more hp and skills like parry, charge, round attack and extra strike.
    You will also need a ranged attack to take out fliers. First when you get those skills, and at least 16 hp, you will want to max out attack, resistance and damage (getting 10 damage is very costly)
    A melee hero should also get spell casting I early on, so he can heal himself and save level points by casting spells like enchant weapon (will save 15 points) stone skin, bless and dark gift (will save 10 points)

    Kris

    [This message has been edited by Kris Lighthawk (edited 09-16-2001 @ 03:04 AM).]

    posted 09-16-01 09:40 AM EDT (US)     11 / 12  
    I was keeping track during my last campaign.

    1-9 15xp
    10-19 20xp
    20+ 25xp

    I guess it really isn't that big of a difference, but if we're talking about getting 100 points to buy Spellcasting from, it'll take 50 more xp for a 20th level hero than for a 10th level hero.

    I guess it really wouldn't be too hard for that 20th level hero to get those 50 points.

    posted 09-16-01 02:49 PM EDT (US)     12 / 12  
    so I added wrong so sue me heh, I did the both of em together to get 5 levels then the 6 for the damage and I guess I probably got sidetracked on the five actually now that I'm thinkin about how the heck did I end up with something that high ohh well anyways usually by the time I become a super hero its around that and no its not very hard at all for a lvl 20 hero to get those 50 points I usually find myself running around in enemey territory taking a few stacks of 8 each turn so heh it dont take very long. Either way 14 levels compared to 10, plus without spell casting 1 atleast I dont think I'd make as far as I can, I usually pick up regeneration from the start and charge and parry to buff myself out in the beginning of the game. The rest is just picking up stats from there on, and if possible holy/unholy champion, heh I really love that skill

    People follow the light, blinded by just cause, but what has the light brought them? It has only caused me pain, while the darkness embraced me and kept me deep within its shadows away from my pursuers and made them suffer for their crimes against me

    Into darkness, into night, amoungst the shadows we shall fight

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