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Topic Subject: Rollin' rollin' rollin', keep them heroes rollin'... (Re: Teleporters)
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posted 03-28-02 04:00 AM EDT (US)   
...Rawhide!

In a review I've just read of HoMMIV there is a description of a new town upgrade that I find a little disturbing, called the caravan. With it, units are able to travel between towns without having to traverse the global map. It's not precisely clear how it works, but from what I gather, movement occurs ‘behind the scenes,' with the number of turns til arrival calculated by distance and at a flat rate per turn. Unless I've totally misunderstood, it is not possible for enemy units to intervene at any point. The reviewer lauds the feature, saying ‘it puts an end to the tedium of moving units all over the map'. Or some such.

I wouldn't bring it up here, except that in reflection it seems like AoWII's oft-touted teleportal upgrade has been designed to fulfil a similar purpose. The devs must have felt that something needed to be done to avoid the slowdowns that might affect the game when there are lots of units moving around each turn, as can happen with super huge scenarios for the original AoW.

Although reducing slowdowns may be desirable, I find myself wondering if the solution is actually more harmful than good. Teleportals in the original AoW are a necessary evil IMO, useful occasionally, mainly as a way to help the ai expand. Having them buildable is another bowl of fish.

If by constructing whole networks of teleportals, players can avoid the dangers of overland travel between their wizards towers, perhaps some of the strategic depth will disappear from the game. If entire areas of the map can be skipped over or avoided at will, then perhaps almost anything mapmakers put into their designs to ensure that they are challenging (and entertaining) will be of less consequence. To me, that spells less fun.

Does anyone else share my fears? Steep research and mana requirements could offset the worst abuse, I suppose. On the whole, I find the concept of building teleportals a bit repellent. Turn slowdowns would be far preferable.

Thoughts on this?

~Fingers~

Replies:
posted 04-06-02 06:30 PM EDT (US)     41 / 73  
Hey I want to be member too, yuo have forgotten me swolte!!!

NO BUILDABLE TELEPORTERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted 04-06-02 07:03 PM EDT (US)     42 / 73  
Everyone, we have two new BTOOIC members, Andalakus, and Newsboy555. Our army is growing stronger and stronger.

Newsboy: I did catch the joke.

Andalakus: We do not stand for: "NO BUILDABLE TELEPORTERS", we stand for an option to disable teleporters in cities.

And while we're at it, swolte, what do you think of it if we also lobby for an option to play AoW2 in wizardless mode?


"I wanna be Sultan instead of the Sultan!" - Grand Vizier Iznoghoud, 2nd and honoured member of the BTOOIC (Buildable Teleporters Off Option in Cities)
Admin of the BTOOIC site and forum.

[This message has been edited by Iznoghoud (edited 04-06-2002 @ 07:04 PM).]

posted 04-06-02 07:50 PM EDT (US)     43 / 73  
I'm so in. But you guys know that you CAN raze teleporters, right? :\
posted 04-06-02 07:59 PM EDT (US)     44 / 73  
We speak about the teleporters in citys.
We think you should be able to turn the abbility of teleporterbuilding off in maps.
posted 04-06-02 09:21 PM EDT (US)     45 / 73  
...you can teleport units from city to city?

*shock*!!!

posted 04-06-02 11:47 PM EDT (US)     46 / 73  
It would be great if we could keep this from wandering too far off topic, guys. We should continue serious discussion to keep the issue alive. Otherwise the mods will label the thread OT and move it somewhere the developers will never see it.

The road goes ever, ever.... ouch!
--Bilbo-on-a-stick-->
posted 04-07-02 04:57 AM EDT (US)     47 / 73  
Yes, the community forum is indeed a better place to plan our campaign. But we'll wait till Swolte the First announces the secret BTOOIC gathering place. *checks swolte's post again*

*test, test, 123, is the mic working? Thank you* *ahum* I, Grand Vizier Iznoghoud, hereby announce that the official BTOOIC center shall be opened by Swolte the First at 7:30 AM EDT (Forum Time) in the Hall of Wonders meeting forum.

Does that do it?


"I wanna be Sultan instead of the Sultan!" - Grand Vizier Iznoghoud, 2nd and honoured member of the BTOOIC (Buildable Teleporters Off Option in Cities)
Admin of the BTOOIC site and forum.

[This message has been edited by Iznoghoud (edited 04-07-2002 @ 05:09 AM).]

posted 04-07-02 06:39 AM EDT (US)     48 / 73  
Well spoken, Grand Vizier Iznoghoud.

2 hours from now... There will be a GRAND public BTOOIC opening and a secret members only BTOOIC meeting place will be revealed.

*Goes for Lunch and to buy opening ceremony decoration*

Please join BTOOIC (Buildable Teleporters Off Option In Cities) Here! Membership is still free!

Swolte the First


( ,this is gonna kill me some day)

[This message has been edited by swolte (edited 04-07-2002 @ 09:00 AM).]

posted 04-07-02 10:34 AM EDT (US)     49 / 73  
Too bad the Devs closed us down before we even opened swolte. Nice try though.

Maybe we should give up this campaign.

Maybe we should accept that city-buildable teleporters are an integral part of the game that should not be changed by optionality, because teleporting is, after all, great fun...

posted 04-07-02 11:16 AM EDT (US)     50 / 73  
No no no no no. We're aren't lobbying to get rid of buildable teleports in city, just an off-option.
posted 04-07-02 11:29 AM EDT (US)     51 / 73  
Optionality means option..
Maybee I was unclear, irony is sometimes too powerful a weapon to be wielded by the clumsy.

The brave, yet clumsy Norwegian.

posted 04-07-02 02:12 PM EDT (US)     52 / 73  

Quoted from Rorschach:

Maybe we should accept that city-buildable teleporters are an integral part of the game that should not be changed by optionality, because teleporting is, after all, great fun...

No, IMO it is not too integral a part of the game, one of the devs said that you will probably only build teleporters in 10% of your games.


"I wanna be Sultan instead of the Sultan!" - Grand Vizier Iznoghoud, 2nd and honoured member of the BTOOIC (Buildable Teleporters Off Option in Cities)
Admin of the BTOOIC site and forum.

[This message has been edited by Iznoghoud (edited 04-07-2002 @ 02:14 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 02:19 PM EDT (US)     53 / 73  
Right Ror, you're vagueness astounded me, I was unable to think clearly. But since you're part of BTOOIC, your words (and I quote),

Quoted from Rorschach:

Maybe we should accept that city-buildable teleporters are an integral part of the game that should not be changed by optionality


goes against everything the BTOOIC stands for. HERESY!!!!
posted 04-07-02 03:13 PM EDT (US)     54 / 73  

Quoted from Rorschach:

Maybe we should accept that city-buildable teleporters are an integral part of the game that should not be changed by optionality

The winking at the bottom is meant to show irony.
Ah, whatever.

posted 04-07-02 03:24 PM EDT (US)     55 / 73  
I would like Teleporters in Citys which can be only used by hereos and Wizards.

HEY WHAT`S THAT BEHIND YOU!

While you look away the Btooic recruitmenttroops are taking over the thread

[This message has been edited by Andalakus (edited 04-07-2002 @ 04:40 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 04:50 PM EDT (US)     56 / 73  
Join BTOOIC.

Or find me ANY piece of fantasy literature where entire armies are teleported!

(And when you have found it, use it as toilet paper).

[This message has been edited by Black Knight (edited 04-07-2002 @ 04:53 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 04:58 PM EDT (US)     57 / 73  
Listen to what the great seer Andalakus have to say

And the time will come that the mods will walk over the surface of the forum again and they will see what we have done in their absence.
And they will hunt all members of Btooic and bring them in a deep dungeon and then they will make a deterrent sign for the following generations by declaring the 'Rollin' rollin' rollin', keep them heroes rollin'...'thread as Off-topic!
Only the Great seer Andalakus(me) wan`t be punished in this Armagedon

[This message has been edited by Andalakus (edited 04-07-2002 @ 05:04 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 05:05 PM EDT (US)     58 / 73  
You mean "devs".
I do not fear that deep dungeon, for I have faith in the strength of BTOOIC. We stand together, united as one against the cold absence of a buildable teleporter off option in cities.
BTOOIC!

edit: NO, you mean "mods". Sorry for not catching your shrewd short for "Moderator" at once. Sorry, let me give you one of these doughnuts.
I'm stupid.

[This message has been edited by Rorschach (edited 04-07-2002 @ 05:08 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 05:07 PM EDT (US)     59 / 73  

Quoted from Black Knight:

Or find me ANY piece of fantasy literature where entire armies are teleported!
(And when you have found it, use it as toilet paper)

Hmmm..`Wheel of Time` should last me a while then.
At least the pages are soft

Crash

posted 04-07-02 05:09 PM EDT (US)     60 / 73  
LOL! (all of this)

[This message has been edited by Iznoghoud (edited 04-07-2002 @ 05:11 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 05:16 PM EDT (US)     61 / 73  
I don´t read Wheel of time any further.
It just doesn´t end in any book just to annoy me.
Discworld and Midkemia rule.
Seems like my ÜProphecy is wrong, cause no Mod here for the whole day...

[This message has been edited by Andalakus (edited 04-07-2002 @ 05:26 PM).]

posted 04-07-02 05:32 PM EDT (US)     62 / 73  
I think buildable teleporters is sort of a stupid idea. The player could get carried away with it and teleport all of his troops anywhere he wants and the strategic part of the game would be destroyed. I'm all for BTOOIC.

"There are the malcontents, and do not underestimate them, for they are legion!"--Julius Caesar
"King of kings, ruling over kings"--motto of the last dynasty of the Eastern Roman Empire
posted 04-07-02 05:35 PM EDT (US)     63 / 73  
Join BTOOIC (Buildable Teleporters Off Option In Cities) Here! Membership is still free!

posted 04-08-02 09:16 AM EDT (US)     64 / 73  
Personally I loooove this place

It's soooo friendly, and the coffee is always the right temperature.

Lots of things going on too! Music... Doughnuts... Chairs...
Did I mention that BTOOIC is short for Buildable Teleporters Off Option In Cities?

posted 04-08-02 10:59 AM EDT (US)     65 / 73  
This thread has been unlocked, but keep it on topic please. There are pleny of other places in our forums to party.

Also, as this was a serious discussion, a few posts that contributed absolutely nothing to the discussion were cleaned up.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

posted 04-09-02 12:57 PM EDT (US)     66 / 73  
Just one other follow-up, I loath deleting posts without notice as I appreciate all of our visitors and their contributions, but in this particular forum, the AOW2 forum, it's difficult enough for the devs to follow longer threads like this as they spend what precious little time they have to visit and respond to fan-feedback.

As the issue of teleports is a hot topic, I'd like to encourage their feedback by presenting the information as streamlined for them as possible, and that's why nonsensical posts (like "Jack grabs coffee, *wacks* Tom") were deleted.

Please beat up on each other, steal coffee and consume doughnuts in the Community or Guild forum. Or perhaps you'd enjoy a few restful hours in KORT? KORT is the last bastion of free-form discussion on the entire planet. I know some of you would enjoy the "Whoever gets the last word wins" thread.


[This message has been edited by Angel Draco (edited 04-09-2002 @ 01:04 PM).]

posted 04-09-02 03:49 PM EDT (US)     67 / 73  
Ok Draco,
Let me try to get it back on nonspammy-track, too.

Thesis:
The possibility of Buildable Teleporters in upgraded cities could affect gameplay in a drastic way that is, to most, lesser fun. Even if difficult to build and use. Especially the big multiplayer maps which often start with upgraded cities could suffer from this. An option to NOT play with teleporters would seriously benefit the game.

I hereby challenge (in a friendly manner, of course) anyone who thinks otherwise. Bring it on! .

Serious content-related responses only please.

(We'll keep the fun at the party )



Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
posted 04-09-02 04:33 PM EDT (US)     68 / 73  
So how can you say they will be less fun when you don’t know how they will work?!? You said previously that you feared they would ruin the game since they would be too powerful. That’s true for basically every aspect of the game, if something gets too powerful the balance will fall. This is a necessity in every single game humans have ever invented, why do you keep believing that the developers don’t know this!?!?!?

Bah! I’m a bit tired of the subject so I think will go down to the party instead, I need a pint to wash away my bad mood.


Ahhhh!! Much better!! Now what was I saying??? Hmmm, I can't seem to remember but the pint was good, can I have another one? No?!?!? Not even if I decide to join this thing, whatever you where calling it??? Please, I’ll sign anything just as long as you give me a pint! No!?!?! Not even a half?!?!? What if I join two times for half a pint? Please?!

[This message has been edited by Fisenflycht (edited 04-10-2002 @ 10:32 AM).]

posted 04-09-02 09:52 PM EDT (US)     69 / 73  
If you guys still need to read it, or have completely looked over it, Josh talks on teleporters here. He says something about buildable teleporters as being only built in a wizards tower, thus being very expensive and rare.

*whew* I'm going to go chill at the party...


"Count no man happy until he is dead"
-Solon
posted 04-09-02 11:00 PM EDT (US)     70 / 73  
Just tweaked the thread title a teeny, tiny bit to help newbies in our forum.
posted 04-10-02 12:45 PM EDT (US)     71 / 73  
Thanks Draco, on behalf of all us newbies who might have thought this thread had something to do with heroes
posted 04-11-02 08:51 AM EDT (US)     72 / 73  

Quoted from Fisenflycht
:

So how can you say they will be less fun when you don’t know how they will work?!? You said previously that you feared they would ruin the game since they would be too powerful. That’s true for basically every aspect of the game, if something gets too powerful the balance will fall. This is a necessity in every single game humans have ever invented, why do you keep believing that the developers don’t know this!?!?!?
Bah! I’m a bit tried of the subject so I think will go down to the party instead, I need a pint to wash away my bad mood.

Fisenflycht, sorry the subjuct has put you down. If it makes you feel any better to hear it, I also have faith in our devs and know they are creating a great strategy game. Just not necessarily a perfect one. That's the reason some of us make noise. If you look back at the earlier posts, I hope you will see that I attempted to outline what was known about the upgrade from official sources, and put forth my own misgivings in light of similar features in other games, where I find them of dubious benefit. Certainly there has been conjecture made by all of us to help fill in the blanks. The underlying premise, though, is only that buildable teleportals have the potential to lessen the strategic depth, if they (like caravans in Heroes IV) reduce the importance of good overland generalship and instead place too much emphasis on something that is -- I think by its very nature and on a fundamental level -- strategically negating. Of course that’s opinion. I’m sure Swolte and everyone in the ‘make the feature optional’ camp can agree that whether teleportal networks prove fun or not will depend on individual taste. Unfortunately, my taste so far says… ‘yick, that's bad.’ And so it seems for a lot of people.

Quoted from Arno:

Yes I have read most of the posts about teleporters. In practice it works just different. That's just all I can say right now.

Quoted from Rayb:

As per the teleporters in AoW2, the fears are not justified. In all my experience the only time I've even gotten one, was if late, late, late in a game, I took over an enemy city in which the enemy was stupid enough to build it. Because of the way the tech tree is built, it's unlikely that you will build them in every game, or even in 10% of the games you play. I suppose some map designers may think they're cute and give you them... hrrrmmm... that gives me an idea for a map... but other than that... um... I wouldn't be too worried.


Arno and Rayb, thanks for responding. Sorry for harping on and on about all this. I know the reassurances you gave ought to be heartening and put my concerns to rest, but I’m afraid not. Please, would you elaborate on a few points? Please please please.

1) How does the upgrade ‘greatly reduce micromanagement during the endgame’? Your comments seem at odds with what Lennart said in that interview. He evokes an image of huge networks of teleportals zipping stacks of lazy units from tower to tower all over the map. Now you say that even one teleportal is rarely practical to build and that only in 10% of scenarios would more than one come into play. If the feature aims at reducing micromanagment significantly, it’s hard to imagine how only one teleportal could achieve this.

And… where would 'one' teleportal go?

2) Are you sure, 10%? Most of the scenarios included with AoW were good, but only a handful of them are representative of the kind I have continued to enjoy over the long haul. Sorry, but it’s true. They’re far too easy now in SP. (That’s right everyone, old Fingers is an SP lamer, all some of us can ever manage.) My fear is that this number encompasses a much higher percentage of the more difficult custom made scenarios many of us will want to play after the first few weeks or months of owning the game.

And that would be a shame, because I am hoping to enjoy it for years.

3) If an ai player starts out with tons and tons of mana, I assume they will do much the same sort of things as they would in AoW – they’ll immediately put it towards research, summoning critters of higher and higher level, and eventually start blasting you with powerful overland spells. Sometimes a quick recharge of their altars. It isn’t clear what there would be in this situation to stop them from using their mana to teleport -if- they also began with several towers that are fully upgraded. Is there something else besides mana and fully upgraded towers that’s a factor? What?

4) Josh reiterates in another thread that building the upgrade is ‘EXTREMELY’ expensive. But expensive for whom? Scenarios in which the ai has enormous advantages in mana and gold may be common in PBEM co-op games. They’ll probably be analogous to kind I’ll eventually want to go up against SP.

(..ever the lamer)


More info, then maybe I’ll stop.

~Fingers~

[This message has been edited by Fingers (edited 04-11-2002 @ 09:50 AM).]

posted 04-11-02 11:05 AM EDT (US)     73 / 73  
If this `teleporter` is anything like the vectoring system in Warlords then you will not see any *zing*ing going on.

As far as I remember,in Warlords you could only vector units that were being built.

eg.You are building a swordsman which takes 1 turn but want to vector him to a city at the border.It will take 3 days for transport so 4 days from the start of production a swordsman will appear at the target city.

Vectoring wouldnt work on pre existing stacks as far as I remember.Also,if the destination city was captured then all units in transit would be lost.

If the AoW2 system works like this + the time and expense to meet all city prerequisites and build it then the only time it would become useful for a player would be towards the end of a LONG scenario where your troops are pushing far from your capital and capturing the last few cities.(then you can concentrate on your front line force and forget about the miles and miles of nice peaceful land between your attacking armies and your capital).

As for the AI, I can understand peoples fears in a way..but..the only good player vs AI maps(well..the vast majority anyway) I have played featured heavy teleporter use of the *zing* family of transport to make up for the fact that the AI cannot compete with a competent human.

In some scenarios I think the vectoring system could help the AI keep the pressure on the players without use of the *zing* stones as the AI will send production to its border cities.So in a way you`ll se less *zing*ing than before which cant be a bad thing.

But then again, I may be completely wrong. It wouldnt be the first time and wont be the last

Crash

ps.Vectoring in Warlords was completely free and I rarely used it.The computer used it but still lost.

[This message has been edited by Sir Crashalot (edited 04-11-2002 @ 11:13 AM).]

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