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AoW3: General Discussion & suggestions
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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW3: General Discussion & suggestions » Map size (both global and tactical)
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Topic Subject:Map size (both global and tactical)
balance11
Member
posted 02-18-13 02:56 PM EDT (US)         
Just another concern

I wonder, if converting AOW to 3D might diminish maximal map size? Now it's 192 x 144 and what is going to be in AOW-3? It would be great if I could remake my Ancient Europe map (which just physically can't be smaller). Good LOTR-ME maps also require similar scale.

On combat map issue: I suppose it could be reduced, but not too much. Sides should have an opportunity to line up in order before attacking the opponent (with the exception for some extra-fast units).

[This message has been edited by balance11 (edited 02-18-2013 @ 03:22 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
NTJedi
Member
posted 02-19-13 07:13 PM EDT (US)     1 / 18       
Yes... please don't shrink the map sizes. Computers are always becoming more and more powerful.

Another piece worth mentioning is most developers haven't moved towards creating a 64bit game which almost removes the memory limits of a 32bit game. The 64bit game would allow gamers to play maps of massive size... at this stage of the game either AOW3 has 64bit option or not, but it's definitely something worth consideration for future games. I know Stardock was planning 64bit for the game called Elemental yet other game troubles prevented this from moving forward.

The larger maps provide a feeling it's an actual world instead of an island.

There can be only one.
Highlander
IskatuMesk
Member
posted 02-19-13 08:53 PM EDT (US)     2 / 18       
Large maps are critical to any potential conversions I might attempt in the game. I'm tired of games shrinking map sizes.
you3
Member
posted 02-20-13 06:41 AM EDT (US)     3 / 18       
I can say that I enjoy playing very large maps. Is there concern that aow3 will not allow large maps ?
bam65
Member
posted 02-20-13 01:48 PM EDT (US)     4 / 18       
It seems there IS a concern.
PawelS
Member
posted 02-25-13 09:41 AM EDT (US)     5 / 18       
About global maps: There can be some technical problems with creating very large maps in 3D. So I suppose the maps might be somewhat smaller than in SM, but I think there are some "reserves" here - in SM, the distances between map objects are often quite high (except some "clustered" maps), so if every hex is made more meaningful (and, looking at the screenshots, it seems so), even smaller maps can contain lots of interesting stuff.

About tactical maps: I trust the devs here that they will find the optimal size, allowing varied tactics, but without too much empty, useless space.

A proud member of the Unofficial Patch team.
Creator of the AoW1 Mod.
you3
Member
posted 02-25-13 11:10 AM EDT (US)     6 / 18       
I think we should let the developers respond. In absolute sense (technical) I would think AOW3 could support larger maps than AOW-SM. Yes it is 3d but techniques have improved and today systems have large memory (and memory address space). Of course some of what AOW3 can support depends upon the targeted system and game engine so there are a lot of variables.

Your comment with regards to detail is important thing to consider; though to be honest in a few very specific cases I like the epic feeling of a huge land mass (ala lotr). At the very min if not AOW-3 then perhaps AOW-3 part 2 could support map paging or map sliding where a map can be very large but only a portion of it is 'in play' at a time (though some might find the mechanics of such a concept unsatisfactory)
NTJedi
Member
posted 02-28-13 01:06 PM EDT (US)     7 / 18       
It would be great if I could remake my Ancient Europe map (which just physically can't be smaller). Good LOTR-ME maps also require similar scale.
I'm tired of games shrinking map sizes.
I can say that I enjoy playing very large maps.
... though to be honest in a few very specific cases I like the epic feeling of a huge land mass (ala lotr). At the very min if not AOW-3 then perhaps AOW-3 part 2 could support map paging or map sliding where a map can be very large but only a portion of it is 'in play' at a time (though some might find the mechanics of such a concept unsatisfactory)
Some of my best gaming memories were from the very large maps. I recall playing a world size_8 on the Amiga computer for a game called Settlers or it might have been Settlers_2. I would play for days before encountering my first opponent. And near the end of the game a computer opponent was overpowering me, but it was a great experience to survive, struggle and slowly die against a much larger opponent. The game experience had me feeling as if I was battling on an actual world. Some games are released where the largest maps only provide the 'island' experience.

There can be only one.
Highlander
sikbok
VIP
posted 03-02-13 05:22 AM EDT (US)     8 / 18       
Hi everyone,


Maximum map size is - as you3 mentions - something that depends on a lot of variables.
Also, with a game like AoW3, we're doing some things - dynamic terrain - that other games don't.
Some of those do have quite an impact on memory usage and performance.

And with the game not done yet - i.e. not all optimalisation done - the sizes we could get away with are not known.

Then, there's this thing that not everyone has a killer machine with all the latest hardware.
So, even if I could run a 9000+/9000+ hexagon map on my machine, I wouldn't want people with laptops ending up with blistered knees.


PawelS post above - "if every hex is made more meaningful" - is also spot on. Like most of PawelS posts are actually : )>
We aim to use the space on the map more efficiently.
I.e. to increase the fun/variety/interest-stuff per hex.

>>>Delete Yourself; You've got no chance to win<<<

Atari TeenAge Riot

Picard
Member
posted 03-02-13 05:38 AM EDT (US)     9 / 18       
So, even if I could run a 9000+/9000+ hexagon map on my machine, I wouldn't want people with laptops ending up with blistered knees.
Hey, it's their fault if they keep their laptops on their actual laps. :P
Edi
Member
posted 03-02-13 08:58 AM EDT (US)     10 / 18       
I'd like the possibility of having humongous maps, even if not everyone can play them. Because for those with the top end machines, it would be rewarding and if there are (as there have been in previous installments of the series) variable map sizes, they will still find plenty of maps of the smaller sizes to play.

Member of the Evil Liberal Conspiracy - Moderate European Conservative
balance11
Member
posted 03-02-13 10:11 AM EDT (US)     11 / 18       
Yes "every hex is made more meaningful" (c) sounds very positive , but what does it really mean? Would than movement rate of units be reduced?

This would increase the effective map size; i e with the same number of turns required to pass it you would have fewer hexes. But it makes the map more Civ-like with dense network of cities, which as for me is quite undesirable. To make such map AOW-like we would have to place cities more rarely, which gives another bad alternative - to have fewer cities, with long time to get from one to another. Moreover, if we significantly reduce MP of units it would decrease their diversity (like slight difference between let's say wolfrider and cavalry) and level some terrain effects.

I'll support Edi and vote for huge maps, despite it's possibly not for weaker machines. Patiently we can miss them in the campaign: one or two huge maps is 'must have' for a good campaign IMO.

As Sikbok said, the optimization isn't finished on the moment. So let's hope that Triumph programmers would find some way not to pay with gameplay for 3D

[This message has been edited by balance11 (edited 03-02-2013 @ 10:36 AM).]

PawelS
Member
posted 03-02-13 10:32 AM EDT (US)     12 / 18       
I have nothing against reducing the number of cities - more cities mean more micromanagement. But I think there should be more types of map objects with different effects (something like in the HoMM series). We already know that there are resources that are claimed by the player's domain, also there can be other objects that can be used for different purposes.

I'm not sure about reducing the movement of all units, but I think the movement cost on some terrains (desert, snow, swamp) should be increased, except for units that are native to these terrains, or can fly.

A proud member of the Unofficial Patch team.
Creator of the AoW1 Mod.

[This message has been edited by PawelS (edited 03-02-2013 @ 10:33 AM).]

Leonaru
Member
posted 03-02-13 12:50 PM EDT (US)     13 / 18       
AoW2 is one decade old and it wasn't state-of-the-art back then. How graphically demanding is AoW3 that the maps have to be downsized?
you3
Member
posted 03-02-13 02:46 PM EDT (US)     14 / 18       
Leonaru - again I should let the dev speak as I'm just guessing but I suspect aow3 is 3d and the method they chose to represent the 3d aspect is part of the issue - still with 64 bit windows it would be nice if they provide an option for those with more memory to use larger maps (certainly a good chunk of machines in the past year or two have 8-16gb though I fully admit there are plenty (many) machines with windows 32 and/or 4GB (or less).
Katanaq
Member
posted 03-03-13 00:43 AM EDT (US)     15 / 18       
I second Balance. Please give at least possibility for the large maps.

Concerns raised by Balance are also valid.
NTJedi
Member
posted 03-11-13 05:26 PM EDT (US)     16 / 18       
Also, with a game like AoW3, we're doing some things - dynamic terrain - that other games don't.
Some of those do have quite an impact on memory usage and performance.

...

Then, there's this thing that not everyone has a killer machine with all the latest hardware.
So, even if I could run a 9000+/9000+ hexagon map on my machine, I wouldn't want people with laptops ending up with blistered knees.
Nice knowing the terrain for the game will be dynamic. I hope the same logic will apply for map sizes for those with computers of today, tomorrow and even systems two years old. Providing the "option" of larger maps will not harm gamers who can only play smaller map sizes because they can select a smaller map size.

Suggestions so stronger systems and computers in the future can play larger maps:
1) Allow us gamers to adjust a game file for larger maps.
2) Allow us gamers to adjust a game setting where we can play larger maps.
3) Allow the game to analyze a computer to determine what map sizes are available based on its overall power(memory/cpu/etc.


I don't mind a game working on older computers, yet its design should be intelligent enough to work better and larger on computers of today and computers of tomorrow.

There can be only one.
Highlander
Violet Lev
Member
posted 03-23-13 05:21 AM EDT (US)     17 / 18       
Please use different map sizes like now, for multiplayer it could be smaller, for single player can be large, we neeed new Athendore. And if maps will be more cluttered like Grolls maps or HOMM with something on every hex, I will not play the game. Those with weak computers may play small maps.
ffbj
Member
posted 03-24-13 08:33 PM EDT (US)     18 / 18       
For me the tactical maps were just ok. I did one TC maps where I tried to make them more interesting. Regardless they probably should be smaller, mainly to avoid a common exploit in PvP. I did not play much of AoW2 so I don't know if this was addressed. That is the attacker would not attack. They would come onto the map and just sit there waiting for the defender to move towards them so they could attack first. A quite cowardly way to fight but it did happen. So some method to force the attacker to actually attack. So maybe if no one attacks after 3 rds the battle is over, both sides refuse to attack. This does have precedence historically when neither side would attack. Like the Welsh invading England in the time Henry IV (I think) 1410ish when both sides drew their forces into defensive postions on hillsides and would not move. Demoralized the Welsh left after 3 days and never seriously threatened England again.

[This message has been edited by ffbj (edited 03-24-2013 @ 08:54 PM).]

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