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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW3: General Discussion & suggestions » Will these old characters remain in AOW3?
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Topic Subject:Will these old characters remain in AOW3?
IMPSOLARIVS
Member
posted 02-07-13 06:59 PM EDT (US)         
I still wound like to see treacherous Meandor, brave Bormac Orcbane, savage Inioch, enigmatic Gabriel and other familiar characters in AOW3.

Die Partei hat immer Recht.
AuthorReplies:
Leonaru
Member
posted 02-08-13 08:22 AM EDT (US)     1 / 22       
Inioch came back twice already and should not be resurrected a third time. Gabriel is dead as well. As the game takes place 2,000 years after Shadow Magic (or some at least 1,900 or so - did they ever say how much time passed between TWT and SM?), Bormac should be dead as well. He was already an old guy in AoW1.

On the other hand, Merlin is a human and also still alive. Then again, he probably cheats by using magic. Not sure if normal magic is good enough for that.

I'm not sure about the elves and dark elves. I think they aren't really immortal, but have to got to the Isle of Last Goodbye to ascend. Wasn't that some sort of real-life elven Eden? Story-wise, I can definitely see some wizards coming back.

Also, while the leaders in the trailer look more normal, a lot of wizards from AoW2 were non-human beings. Some belong to a certain race, but others like Yaka, Artica and that fire chick looked mostly like humans, but were more proto-gods.
Beren V
Member
posted 02-08-13 10:24 AM EDT (US)     2 / 22       
Leonaru, please read the backstory before spouting off on it. Yes, elves are immortal in the AoWverse, at least as per AoW1. Also, it's pretty clear in AoW2 that Bormac has also been made effectively immortal as well.

We don't know how much time took place between AoW1 and AoW2, but I don't get the impression that it was less than a couple of hundred years, either.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
Leonaru
Member
posted 02-08-13 10:48 AM EDT (US)     3 / 22       
I didn't say "a couple of hundered years", I said a hundered at most (probably less considering the same heroes are featured). And I was talking about The Wizard's Throne/Shadow magic. Read my post.

Elves are called "immortal" in Age of Wonders II, but it is not specified what that means, that's why I was asking. And where does it say Bormac is immortal?
Beren V
Member
posted 02-08-13 03:06 PM EDT (US)     4 / 22       
The backstory for AoW1 states in a number of places that elves are capable of living forever although, obviously, they can be killed just as humans can. It is implied that a traditional elven lifespan is somewhat over a thousand years, however, since the dynasty of the Elven Court prior to Inioch had the successive kings have one-thousand-year reigns before departing to Evermore. The reign Inioch's father's, who was king before Inioch, ended this way. This departure isn't presented as death, though - text elsewhere in AoW1, mainly following Talic's descent into undeath, implies a very existential nature at least for the elves, in that they may not have an afterlife if they are killed physically. This is just implication, though, and hard to prove.

Bormac Orcbane was one of (at least) three heroes to be imprisoned in the Hall of Heroes under the Dwarven lands. One of these three is a halfling. Now, upon playing that at first, I had the impression that the three were basically in temporal stasis, but Julia's second mission in AoWSM revealed that Bormac essentially stopped aging after that - he has become immortal, like an elf.

*

I was not referring to the time difference between AoW1 and AoW2, and my reference to "a couple of hundred years" is referring to the lifespan of Bormac. I was not criticizing you there; what I was criticizing is your uncertainty of the elves' immortality. Also I realize that I probably should have been less harsh because it has been a long time for us, so I apologize for berating you as I did there.

It is quite likely that the gap from AoW2WT to AoW2SM is fairly short - less than a century, as you say - but a considerable length of time elapsed between AoW1 and AoW2, long enough that Bormac by all rights should have either died of old age or else be very very old even by the time of AoW2. Again, I think he's immortal.

Reasoning: the gap from AoW1 to AoW2 includes the following:

-Julia has restored the Elven Court to the point where she has herself acquired a legendary status, as Gabriel described her to Merlin in Fire 1. Julia's victory in the Valley of Wonders (presumably in a way that is impossible in AoW1 itself, by allying with the High Men) is not within living memory of human beings.

-The Serpent River is described in the opening of Water 2 as flowing into the ocean. From the map of the Blessed Continent in AoW1 as well as the plot, the Serpent River flowed into Blackwater Lake. Again this is doable given how much the Wizards have been messing with geography, climate, and everything else they've been doing, but there is no reference to a recent catastrophe that would result from submerging the southern part of the continent, again implying that it was long enough ago by the time that AoW2 took place that most people didn't remember it.

-Aldor is also half-submerged in Water 3, and again seemingly having been abandoned by the Elves who once lived there for an extended period of time. Mab has moved in with the Goblins. Now, while this by itself doesn't imply that much time, asking how Aldor got submerged and why (e.g. who was living there that the Wizards warred on to half destroy it) implies a significant time gap.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
feargus
Member
posted 02-08-13 03:34 PM EDT (US)     5 / 22       
It would be a nice treat if we would find in aow3 statues, memorials or other references to the heroes of yore!

cheers
Narvek
VIP
posted 02-09-13 04:40 AM EDT (US)     6 / 22       
Hi people!

It's heartwarming to see how much you guys like the lore and the earlier characters

I don't know if any of you remember me, but I recognize some names (Beren V for example!) from way back, when I was on these forums without the blue name. It feels great to be back on this still familiar forum, which has been my online home so long ago.

Anyhow, nostalgia aside, I can definitely tell you that some characters will indeed return

Even at least one that you've already mentioned here


Greetings,
NARVEK
Leonaru
Member
posted 02-09-13 08:24 AM EDT (US)     7 / 22       
My bet is on Meandor.
Draxynnic
Member
posted 02-11-13 07:14 AM EDT (US)     8 / 22       
Even Julia and Meandor coming back is actually a bit strange, given that the traditional period of rulership among the elven monarchy is a thousand years. Unless that tradition's been overturned, they really should have passed on the proverbial mantle by now. Merlin, incidentally, has probably "lived" this long because he's actually been undead since the opening cinematic of Wizard's Throne.

That said, female elven theocrat, which seems to be the most life magic-esque class... hair is a different colour in the trailer, but even so: Hrrrrmn...

To be honest, though, I would have to say that I find the two thousand year gap to be a little... excessive. Technology even in AoW1, let alone 2, was already getting pretty advanced by traditional fantasy standards - given two thousand years to build on top of air ships and steam tanks and I'd have expected the setting to have started to bear a closer resemblance to Shadowrun.

On the high men fighting with Julia, incidentally, I'd comment that it is possible to have high men when playing as the Keepers in the final scenario, even if you can't actually ally with Gabriel - IIRC, there's at least one neutral-starting high men city on the north bank of the lake near some settlements of traditional Keeper races, and you can maintain good enough relations with the high men race to make use of their settlements rather than simply migrating them. From a story perspective, this could be viewed as the high men viewing Julia as being by far the lesser evil and throwing their support behind her when it became clear they weren't winning.

If nothing else, the high men did focus most of their efforts before the final scenario on fighting the factions looking to despoil the Valley (the undead and the Cult of Storms), so Julia might have decided that even though they ended up clashing over control in the end, the high men did enough before that to support her victory over her other foes to be worth commemorating. Kind of a 'we had disagreements that could only be resolved by fighting, but you're still worthy of respect' thing.

Incidentally, on that matter, the elves do have an afterlife when they die physically - one of the high men journal entries speaks of the spirits of dead elves killed in the aftermath of the fall of Inioch's court being released to their afterlife by highmen rituals.

Regarding the gap between 1 and 2 - it's at least "centuries" - Merlin says that he was born "centuries after (the events of AoW1)".
Beren V
Member
posted 02-11-13 09:19 AM EDT (US)     9 / 22       
My bet is on Bormac, actually, for exactly the reason that Draxynnic and I bring up: elven tradition. Bormac is essentially immortal, but still very much a dwarf, so he has no traditions of what to do when you don't eventually die of age.


By the way, I wouldn't worry about technology. Dwarves and Humans of AoW1 had guns and things, but technology in most fantasy worlds just doesn't get to modern levels, possibly because the laws of physics in fantasy worlds are just different from our own, which they must be, otherwise there could not be magic which of course there is in a fantasy world. The different physics that allow for magic might also be less friendly for technology and require greater precision, etc., which might retard technological progress or make certain levels of technology unattainable.

It is definitely true that you can have potentially any race fighting for you in any scenario of AoW, but the Elves and High Men do it easily and are a bit of a challenge. What I think this means is that there are different ideologies but of comparable alignment representing the different leaders, and that pure good or pure evil races have enough free will to choose their causes, but only those compatible with their alignments.

This could, potentially, explain the presence of Archons in AoW2, actually, along with the differences that separate Archons of AoW2 from the High Men of AoW1. The Archons are descendents of those High Men who sided with Julia. Those who sided with Gabriel and Joseph (and survived) went back to Evermore.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
IMPSOLARIVS
Member
posted 02-11-13 12:12 PM EDT (US)     10 / 22       
Backstory says that High men put a star in the sky and returned to it after defeated. Why Highmen become the ugly undead in AOW3? They used to come with honour and strength.

Die Partei hat immer Recht.
i30817
Member
posted 02-11-13 01:02 PM EDT (US)     11 / 22       
I liked the 'undead are not necessarily evil' subtheme going on on AoW2.
Face it, if you were a powerful wizard that loved the world about to die would you prefer to go to a nebulous afterlife presumably in thrall of those monomanics that are called great spirits, or would you prefer to continue studying magic on wonderland (the transformation to a skeleton and unfortunate side-effects of changing spheres to death are just something to overcome with enough research, i'm sure everyone can just get along with enough goodwill).
Presto.

[This message has been edited by i30817 (edited 02-11-2013 @ 01:03 PM).]

Beren V
Member
posted 02-11-13 02:47 PM EDT (US)     12 / 22       
Face it, if you were a powerful wizard that loved the world about to die would you prefer to go to a nebulous afterlife presumably in thrall of those monomanics that are called great spirits, or would you prefer to continue studying magic on wonderland (the transformation to a skeleton and unfortunate side-effects of changing spheres to death are just something to overcome with enough research, i'm sure everyone can just get along with enough goodwill).
Presto.
AoW1 strongly implies that the Undead have no free will with which to make such a decision. Once you become undead, one of the things that is sacrificed in addition to becoming a skeleton is your free will.

The Cult of Storms seems to conclude after finally learning this that it is better not to have an afterlife if this is what you get.
Backstory says that High men put a star in the sky and returned to it after defeated. Why Highmen become the ugly undead in AOW3? They used to come with honour and strength.
The "good" ending of AoW1 says that, but there are places in AoW2 that imply that the canonical ending of AoW1 is not one of the possible endings of the game.

I am certain that Triumph has a reason for how and why the Archons became as they are now. We will have to wait to find out what that reason is.

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
CrazySlyHawk
Member
posted 02-11-13 04:12 PM EDT (US)     13 / 22       
New story and characters plx

Though if some of the old characters appeared in a supporting role, that would be cool too.

Token Irish Gamer!
Leonaru
Member
posted 02-11-13 05:30 PM EDT (US)     14 / 22       
No worries about the technology. The Age of Wonders universe is safely trapped in fantasy medieval stasis.
Draxynnic
Member
posted 02-11-13 10:48 PM EDT (US)     15 / 22       
The AoW2 race descriptions talk about strife between the archons and elves, but "the Archons were defeated in their claim and were forced to reconsider their indignation." Later, the hero in the final mission of Shadow Magic states, as a representative of the archons, that they've recognised that the old races have the right to live in the world as well as humanity.

The overall impression I get is that the archons in AoW2 were essentially in damage control mode - they didn't get what they really wanted, but they're cutting their losses and getting the best they can get without reinitiating hostilities and aggravating the elves even further. (Especially given that the impression I get is that in the greater cosmic picture, the archons and elves had something of a symbiotic relationship - the elves rejuvenating the worlds that the archons captured from the forces of evil. They may well have decided that one world is not worth aggravating the elves elsewhere in the multiverse sufficiently to risk that relationship.)

When it comes to technology - one thing threatening the setting from remaining in stasis is that the conflict in the AoW3 story seems to be one between those in favour of further developing technology and a new order (the Commonwealth Empire) and those favouring the old ways (the Court). It's possible that one explanation is that the Court has been suppressing technological development since reestablishing itself after Shadow Magic, and what's happening now is that the heralds of technology have grown tired of being held back.
Beren V
Member
posted 02-12-13 10:42 AM EDT (US)     16 / 22       
Although, as far a techology is concerned, do notice that one of the options of a character class as seen in the demo is the Dreadnaught "herald of technology".

-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
feargus
Member
posted 02-13-13 05:31 AM EDT (US)     17 / 22       
Although, as far a techology is concerned, do notice that one of the options of a character class as seen in the demo is the Dreadnaught "herald of technology".
but a 'herald' means something like forebearer, something/someone that comes before like a messenger or initiation. So the real technological advancement will have to wait 'till aow4.
wargul16
Member
posted 03-06-13 02:53 PM EDT (US)     18 / 22       
What an interesting idea!

I would sooooo love to see my beautiful "Spider Queen" - Arachna/Darkelves again!
Also most of the armies (all races) are really great! A nice facelift would do for me...
Nosferon
Member
posted 03-06-13 05:45 PM EDT (US)     19 / 22       
Let's take a look not only at key figures, but at some random heroes too.

These heroes returned from AoW1 to AoW2: Eklo Frostbite, Ham Binger,
Lily Whiteleaf, Winger Lightfinger, Jattah the Leper and King Joseph
a.k.a. Joseph the Warrior - a human turned undead. Do you think someone
from AoW2 could be back as a "regular" hero in AoW3? Symon? Undead Kenan?
Danah the Shaman?

Yeah, I know about the 2000 years difference, but still...

#7373DE Human #EFB573 Azrac #4AA58C Lizard #9CC6E7 Frostling
#6BB54A Elf #EFE773 Halfling #D6AD8C Dwarf #EFEFDE High Man
#B563BD Dark Elf #F74242 Orc #BD7352 Goblin #947B73 Undead

~ Honeyvale Falls ~ won by PawelS 2011 | ~ Extremism ~ Fourth week 2012
~ Swolterwood ~ NO winner 2012 |
Needles
Member
posted 03-18-13 09:06 AM EDT (US)     20 / 22       
Helloooo, of COURSE elves are immortal in Age of Wonders - they're based on Tolkien elves, which means they're far too effeminate to maintain a self sustaining reproductive rate if subject to normal mortal attrition.

Why do you think there're so many half-elves running around? Cuz' human males are so irresistable? are you kidding? It's because the elf-husbands spend more time on dressing their hair and, I dunno, poetry appreciation than on getting their boom-shaka-laka working in the boudouir. Naturally their lady-folk are going to get bored.

If they weren't immortal the elves would die out in two generations or so. Just a numbers game, really.

Winner "Miss Congeniality Award" in the 2009 AoWSM map making tournament!
Proud author "Across the Wyrding Sea" (1.1 out of 5!)
Draxynnic
Member
posted 03-30-13 06:37 AM EDT (US)     21 / 22       
Actually, there is Word of God on that - unlike many settings where elves have problems reproducing as you say, in AoW the elven population is strictly controlled so their immortality doesn't lead to them outgrowing their environment. The elves trying to enforce the same rules on humans was part of what lead to the fall of Inioch's court.

So it's not a lack of desire but a deliberate choice. We haven't been given definite information of how quickly elves reproduce if let off the proverbial leash and allowed to go at it, but there is another distinction between the elves of AoW and those of most other settings, including Tolkein - elves in settings where elves have naturally low fertility tend not to recover from blows as heavy as the fall of Inioch's court was and thus dwindle through attrition as centuries and battles pass by, but the elves of Age of Wonders seem to have pretty much recovered everything except their capital by the time of the first game, and seem to have pretty much gone back to being the superpower before the wizards got involved in AoW2. I'd interpret that as meaning that while they have strict controls over their birthrate in times of peace, they have no barriers to replenishing their numbers when they've suffered losses.
Nosferon
Member
posted 04-04-13 05:08 PM EDT (US)     22 / 22       
According to this interview:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/68923_530467643643735_1914538032_n.jpg

You are right, that guy in the announcement trailer is a grizzled Merlin. Although a long time has passed
since the events of Shadow Magic, some characters will reappear. For example Queen Julia of the Wood
Elves has married a Dark Elf. Their union caused these hostile elven factions to bury the hatchet and
created the High Elves. Juliaís daughter Sundren, is the protagonist of one of the two story campaigns.


So grandpa Merlin and grandma Julia are confirmed, but I'm still curious about the heroes...

#7373DE Human #EFB573 Azrac #4AA58C Lizard #9CC6E7 Frostling
#6BB54A Elf #EFE773 Halfling #D6AD8C Dwarf #EFEFDE High Man
#B563BD Dark Elf #F74242 Orc #BD7352 Goblin #947B73 Undead

~ Honeyvale Falls ~ won by PawelS 2011 | ~ Extremism ~ Fourth week 2012
~ Swolterwood ~ NO winner 2012 |
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