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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW2/SM Competitions, Tournaments & Wizard's Ladder » Preparation: upcoming 2010 PBEM Tournament
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Topic Subject:Preparation: upcoming 2010 PBEM Tournament
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Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 07-31-10 08:27 PM EDT (US)         
The yearly 2010 1v1 PBEM tournament will start soon and we need your help in its preparation!

For now, we need to recruit map-testers for maps that we may use for the tournament.

Game 1: Hope's End (Charx vs PawelS) - *Done*
Game 2: Hope's End (Roger vs Charx) -
Game 3: Sea of Sand (Morgul666 vs Bluebaby) - *Done*
Game 4: UpNUnder (iBobs vs H6) - *Done*
Game 5: UpNUnder (Oleg vs iBobs) - *Done*
Game 6: Oceania (Bluebaby vs Unnapu) - *Done*
Game 7: Oceania (PawelS vs Roger) - *Done*
Game 8: Sea of Sand (Roger vs PawelS) - *Done*
Game 9: Oceania (Bajadulce vs Castanieda) - *Done*
Game 10: UpNUnder (Roger vs Bluebaby) -
Game 11: Hope's End (Oleg vs H6) - *Done*
Game 12: Elementmo (SMUki vs Timelord -



Maptester requirements
- Able to play turns with a very high frequency (> twice/day, on average).
- Able to make detailed notes on issues that arise with the map.
- Send Swolte turns (and brief notes - optional) every 5 ingame days.
- Send Swolte a general commentary on the map when the game is over or the tournament starts.

=========================================================
Interested? Please post your email+timezone in this thread and tell me how many games you want to be involved in (maximum). I will then send you the tournament version of the map when it is ready and set up the games with an opponent.
=========================================================

FAQ:
Q- Do I need to log my turns for tournament maptesting on the forums?
A- No need to, but go ahead if you like to. It would help if you make some sort of private strategy log that you can send me.

Q- If the tournament starts so soon, will I have time to finish the testgame?!
A- It is possible you may not finish the testgame before the tournament starts. Especially if it is a 'bad' tournament map that takes 20+ days to finish. In that case we will use your impression of the map up to that point for feedback.

Q- Must I password protect my turns?
A- Not strictly necessary for this. If you do password protect, please send me the password (swolte@gmail dot com) so I can open your turns, or use 'testgame' as password.

Q- I like to play this map *blind* (e.g., not look in the editor).
A- You are recommended to play it like you would a tournament game. In my opinion, it would be silly not to study the map beforehand in the editor at least somewhat (if you are serious about winning!). Also, there are valuable comments to be gained from studying the map in the editor we need to know!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 08-29-2010 @ 01:23 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
Bluebaby
Member
posted 09-03-10 01:22 AM EDT (US)     51 / 71       
About your randomization issue. I think it's ok that you create 2 player pools: the high score ones and the low score ones. Then if you build classes of 4, e.g., you would create each class by drawing 2 random from pool A and 2 random from pool B. - Only consequence is you have to set an even class cardinality, and you must evaluate players who you haven't met at all.
Charx
Member
posted 09-03-10 03:36 AM EDT (US)     52 / 71       
@Swolte & Enginerd: I know that you most probably weighted up all pros and cons, but could you please explain what speeks againt a 2-round swiss-system reducing player-number step-by-step to 8?

I see that it is fun to hope that your opponents do well, but its not that funny for players that get 2 newbies and 1 expert as opponents, or for players with opponents that just disappear.

I think there will be 16 good players advancing, but also several that can not because of bad luck. Moreover, i see a real risk of the case that you will have to roll a dice for players with equal oppponent points, which should be avoided by all means...

Of course, another swiss-round means more effort and a slight delay. But in my opinion it is doable cause easier than round one and also would be exciting and enjoyable, with opponent points that after 5 games will be more meaningful.

[This message has been edited by Charx (edited 09-03-2010 @ 03:36 AM).]

Enginerd
HG Angel
posted 09-03-10 08:22 AM EDT (US)     53 / 71       
I've put a fair amount of effort looking into another swiss round to get to 8. We talked it quite a bit last year too and yes, there are pros and cons. It can be done and it's not that much more work to figure out (well, there would be more games in round 2 so yeah, more work on game setup).

Anyways, keep the comments coming. We want to hear your thoughts. I'm still interested in your thoughts around the randomization and using last year's results to help seed players in round 1 (or keep Swolte and Costa from a rematch in round 1, etc)
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 09-03-10 08:45 AM EDT (US)     54 / 71       
@Swolte & Enginerd: I know that you most probably weighted up all pros and cons, but could you please explain what speeks againt a 2-round swiss-system reducing player-number step-by-step to 8?
I guess to sum it up (and preferences lie in the details):
- We want to prevent players having to play more games simultaneously (which is the case with the Swiss stuff).
- The fewer maps played the better! From an organizational point of view, its all about timing.
- The Swiss system, as you point out below, has its drawbacks, and isn't as straightforward as simple elimination. The faster we can get to the elimination system the better.
- Want to establish a tradition so we can better compare tournaments to each other. Last tournament worked well.
I see that it is fun to hope that your opponents do well, but its not that funny for players that get 2 newbies and 1 expert as opponents, or for players with opponents that just disappear.
First of all, these situations can pose problems in ANY system. If you have better alternatives, I'd be happy to hear them!

Second, if you get 2 easy-to-beat newbies, you should get 2 base points for free. Anyone should want that, seriously! The Opp points from the expert may even boost you enough, if he/she is that good. Also, ask yourself whether you would you rather have 3 opponents of equal strength... If I were you, I'd rather hope to get lucky against the expert.
If you have an opponent disappear, you have a free base point (extremely lucky!) and more time to dedicate for other games, but yes, no opp points (so it seems to balance out quite well) so it puts extra pressure to win your other games.

Last, In the end, there is one winner, anyway. You should be able to win all games!
I think there will be 16 good players advancing, but also several that can not because of bad luck. Moreover, I see a real risk of the case that you will have to roll a dice for players with equal opponent points, which should be avoided by all means...
I think there are enough safeguards to prevent that. These were the rules used last year in case of tiebreakers (we will probably keep them).

"It is possible that contestants will have the same final rank at the 16th best player range. In those cases, we will look at those people who are similar (usually 2 or 3) in this order:
- Have they had direct contact in a match before. If so, this will determine who goes first.
- Those players who have had official tournament warnings will fail.
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they defeated. The one with the highest score will get priority.
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they lost to. The one with the highest score (who was beaten by better players) will have priority.
- Do the same as the above two steps, but instead of Opp points, use the final rankings of the players.
- Lastly, the judges will do a lottery."


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 09-03-2010 @ 08:52 AM).]

Charx
Member
posted 09-03-10 09:03 AM EDT (US)     55 / 71       
Well, all in all i now understand your motivation to choose the same system as last year.
- Want to establish a tradition so we can better compare tournaments to each other. Last tournament worked well.
Thats good, and it may probably work well with 34 players, which are only 4 more than last year. But imagine you get up to 40 players, then it might be worth breaking the traditions...
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they defeated. The one with the highest score will get priority.
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they lost to. The one with the highest score (who was beaten by better players) will have priority.
Was it that way? I remember that last year luckily we did not have the situation where we would have had to look at those opponents points, but i also remember that all the tables summed up the opponent points of all opponents, whether you lost to them or defeated them. This confused me last year in the beginning, but i felt that simplifying this rule was a good choice.

[This message has been edited by Charx (edited 09-03-2010 @ 09:03 AM).]

Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 09-03-10 09:32 AM EDT (US)     56 / 71       
- Want to establish a tradition so we can better compare tournaments to each other. Last tournament worked well.

Thats good, and it may probably work well with 34 players, which are only 4 more than last year. But imagine you get up to 40 players, then it might be worth breaking the traditions...
Yes, that becomes more tricky. I think I would still opt for a Swiss style in the first rounds to a final 16 elimination, though. Perhaps pick 4 maps (I'll have to pick 2 really fast ones).
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they defeated. The one with the highest score will get priority.
- Add all the Opp rank scores of the players they lost to. The one with the highest score (who was beaten by better players) will have priority.

Was it that way? I remember that last year luckily we did not have the situation where we would have had to look at those opponents points, but i also remember that all the tables summed up the opponent points of all opponents, whether you lost to them or defeated them. This confused me last year in the beginning, but i felt that simplifying this rule was a good choice.
Yes, only in the case of ties, but it wasn't used!

I was also debating with Enginerd few days ago whether to only count your Opp points of only those opponents you beat (for main rules). However, if you are in a group with very good players who you will likely lose against, I can see the stress on the base stats being severe enough... Decided to keep it the way it was.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
Enginerd
HG Angel
posted 09-03-10 12:41 PM EDT (US)     57 / 71       
CharX, yeah, the tiebreakers were that way and you should have seen the spreadsheet where I broke out every tiebreaker rules and went through each ranking for round 2. Some of them were quite complicated with 3 players with the same score. Swolte may not remember exactly but we did have to resort to some of those tiebreakers to seed the players for Round 2 (I just sent him the results and he took one look and said “yikes, looks good to me”). But we got lucky and no one was eliminated with 2 wins . Not likely this year.

You’ve made some great points and really appreciate the comments. Yes, we’ve considered lots of what you bring up. If we get 6 more players to join then yeah, we might have to add another game to make things work out. If we keep the same number of rounds with 34 players it doesn’t help us much to have Round 2 be another Swiss style, we’d likely end up with 12 players with 3+ wins and we'd want to get to 8 players. That situation would be bad. We’re keeping the option of having to add a game/round because we have LOTS of players open right now, must see how many more we get… Anyone know someone who might actually do just that… sign up last minute???!!!

As Swolte and I discussed/debated about an appropriate way to get to 16 players we saw many options. (Again, 16 for elimination rounds sounded good to us and works out well). In the end we’re leaning very very strongly for keeping it the way it was last year for all the reasons Swolte mentions above. There will also be a TNS coming out explaining it more.
naecO
Member
posted 09-03-10 05:45 PM EDT (US)     58 / 71       
Too bad all of us only play for fun in our PBEM, otherwise, the wizard ladder would help a lot in this situation to rank players and organise pools. xD

Maybe it's time to think of a way to bring back the WL where even friendlies/fun PBEMs would count too.


Tired of manually receiving/sending your PBEM turns everyday ? Try out Dave's PBEM Wrapper!
Henrysix
Member
posted 09-03-10 06:26 PM EDT (US)     59 / 71       
Maybe the tournament games should count as WL games. It seems that with the terrific maps that were created following Patch 1.4, gradually PBEMers stopped playing as much 1v1 and random maps, which were more suitable for WL games. But if we're going to be playing a bunch of 1v1 maps anyway, why not have them count as WL games?

I'd be willing to keep track of the ratings, at least for the tournament (I'm not sure how much work went into what Hiranu used to do, but I'll give it a try).
PawelS
Member
posted 09-03-10 06:33 PM EDT (US)     60 / 71       
WL seems to be dead, but maybe we can introduce a new rating system based on the tourney results and other 1vs1 games.

A proud member of the Unofficial Patch team.
Creator of the AoW1 Mod.

[This message has been edited by PawelS (edited 09-03-2010 @ 06:33 PM).]

Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 10-31-10 11:29 PM EDT (US)     61 / 71       
Need testers for tournament version of The Experiment by Albaron. We have been working very hard on this... blood sweat and tears, and all that! It's quite different from what it was. Its still quite unpolished... so please, your help is much appreciated!

You need to play really fast and send me some turns every 5 days!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
TravisII
Member
posted 10-31-10 11:51 PM EDT (US)     62 / 71       
I can play fast when I don't take extra extra time to study ahead, figure out how battles can go, etc etc. Still, I can cut that down to just studying the map when needed to play faster. Count me in!

#7373DE for Humans #EFB573 for Azracs #4AA58C for Lizard Men #9CC6E7 for Frostlings |SM|> #E4ED38 #EBEBEB #CC2D29 #CC29D5
#6BB54A for Elves #EFE773 for Halflings #D6AD8C for Dwarves #EFEFDE for High Men |SM|> #DE8EA4 #F09245 #D2BE92 #BDBDE8 #558CDD
#B563BD for Dark Elves #F74242 for Orcs #BD7352 for Goblins #947B73 for The Undead |SM|> #1DDB38 #83795A #2CAAA4 #AC762A
Colors for AoW1 and AoWSM **A Proud Member of the Unofficial Patch Team!** ~2010 AoWSM PBEM Singles Champion~ http://blog.noblemaster.com/
Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 11-01-10 04:04 AM EDT (US)     63 / 71       
I can't play a game on that map but if you can send it to me, I can do some quick hotseat runs and examine it in the editor.

2009 1v1-Mapmaking Champion, Former PBEM Singles Champion, Proud contributor to the UPatch 1.4 and 1.5 effort
War of the Twins- 1 vs 1 PBEM map, Too Much Water - 1 vs 1 PBEM map, winner of 2009 1vs1 Mapmaking Challenge
My Dragon Age development blog
flyguy
Member
posted 11-01-10 04:29 AM EDT (US)     64 / 71       
I am willing to help with testing the map. I usually play the tournament maps anyway. I have had a lot of fun reading the PBEM tournament game logs.

Good luck!
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 11-01-10 02:09 PM EDT (US)     65 / 71       
We've sent it to TL! After getting some more feedback from him and Albaron, I'll start the game!

Edit, its Albaron's birthday tomorrow, so we're skipping a day. Start on Wednesday evening (GMT -5)!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008

[This message has been edited by Swolte (edited 11-01-2010 @ 06:04 PM).]

Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 11-03-10 09:28 PM EDT (US)     66 / 71       
Game started, thanks!

More testers are welcome!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
Costa
Member
posted 11-08-10 12:05 PM EDT (US)     67 / 71       
Me and Troy Locker can do a testgame on the Experiment.
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 11-08-10 06:21 PM EDT (US)     68 / 71       
Great, we are just reworking the current version! Will set you both up today or tomorrow.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 11-08-10 10:01 PM EDT (US)     69 / 71       
May take bit longer as we found a possible exploit with one of the events.


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
Swolte
AOWH/AOW2H Seraph
posted 11-10-10 10:30 PM EDT (US)     70 / 71       
Ok, 2 games started!


Get the unofficial Patch v1.4. here!
My best AoW-Sm map: Drums of Death (This is the multiplayer version; for single player, or AI use different version)
Other proud AoW-sm maps: The Key of Kharzul, The Fight for Light, Waikiti Island, Goldrush Mountains
My proud AoW2 maps:The River Arne
Coordinator of the v1.4 and v1.5 patchteams, Seraph of AoWHeaven, PBEM Singles Champion 2008
flyguy
Member
posted 11-12-10 00:59 AM EDT (US)     71 / 71       
For what it's worth I could handle another test game on the experiment if there is anyone willing.
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