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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW1 Competitions, Tournaments & Wizard's Ladder » The AoW2 Summer Sizzler - The Battle of Creation
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Topic Subject:The AoW2 Summer Sizzler - The Battle of Creation
RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 05-31-03 05:06 PM EDT (US)         
You can download it here

We're using Jamie's excellent map, The Battle for Creation, as our Monthly Challenge Summer Sizzler, and you have a whole three months to come up with a good result. Please note that this is NOT the standard version of his map, he's made it significantly easier, so hopefully this should enable more people to take part in the competition. For the Summer Sizzler you must use this Monthly Challenge version of the map

Fiirsa must be set to CPU Squire. You can play with exploration ON or OFF (but it ran much faster on my PC with exploration ON). You can turn buildable teleporters OFF in the advanced scenario settings, should you so wish

Please save on days 5, 10, 20, 30 and every subsequent 10 days. Save immediately before the final battle then send that save (and that save only) to rampantroj@yahoo.com (or rogerforward@hotmail.com if the file's less than 1mb). All entries must be received by 23:59 EST on Sunday 31st August 2003

There are a lot of championship points at stake here, so however tough the going may become, please persevere:

1st place - an amazing 35 points

2nd place - a brilliant 20 points

3rd place - a cracking 15 points

4th place - a dazzling 12 points

5th place - an enormous 9 points

6th place - a fantastic 8 points

7th place - a groovy 7 points

8th place - a healthy 6 points

9th place - an invigorating 5 points

10th place - a juicy 4 points

all other entrants - 3 points

IMPORTANT:

Anybody submitting a valid entry who has all the splinters of the Gate of Creation will be given an extra bonus of ten championship points - so even if it takes you three thousand days to win, you would still get at least 13 championship points!

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 06-09-2003 @ 12:49 PM).]

AuthorReplies:
RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 06-09-03 12:46 PM EDT (US)     1 / 30       
Ooops, sorry, forgot about this one...

"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 07-02-03 12:15 PM EDT (US)     2 / 30       

Quoted from JWorth:

I have a related question for Battle of Creation as well -- Is it ok for the fragments to be scattered among different inventories (but all in possession of the player) for the bonus to be received, or do they need to be gathered together?

You must have all the fragments in your possession, and tell me at the time of making your submission that you are claiming the bonus points, but they don't need to be all together.

"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
Outlier
Member
posted 07-04-03 12:23 PM EDT (US)     3 / 30       
I have a clarification question as well. Does the submission with all the pieces of the gate in possession have to be the one with the best time? That is, can a submission be made to claim the bonus points only (with a longer time) and then another submission(s) with a shorter time?

Outlier out ...

ps. A similar question for the MC as well, but I'll post there also.

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 07-04-03 12:33 PM EDT (US)     4 / 30       

Quote:

can a submission be made to claim the bonus points only (with a longer time) and then another submission(s) with a shorter time?

No.

The purpose of the bonus points is to encourage people, that might otherwise be discouraged by the incredibly fast times that some people seem to achieve, to join in the championship.


"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
Outlier
Member
posted 07-06-03 12:54 PM EDT (US)     5 / 30       
More clarification questions:

1) Is the maximum number of points attainable 35+10=45 or just 35 for this Summer Sizzler?

2) If the answer to the first question is 45, then a follow up question. If someone submits more than one entry, would the person be awarded points only for the latest entry? or the entry with the higher MC points? It is conceivable that someone would submit an entry first with the bonuses, and then resubmit an entry with a faster time ... (Let's say the faster time ties for 6th place, thus only 3 points will be awarded. However, if the other submission with the bonuses counted is used instead, then the person would receive 3 (just for entering) + 10 = 13 points!

Outlier out ...

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 07-06-03 02:26 PM EDT (US)     6 / 30       
1) Although it would theoretically be possible to achieve the fastest time and collect all the pieces, I would be amazed if that happened. 45 is theoretically possible, though.

2) The submission that gives you the highest number of points is the one that will be taken into account.


"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-08-03 00:30 AM EDT (US)     7 / 30       
.... for the game theory nerds among us, if a number of people submit entries both with and without bonus points, I'd wager that a Condorcet cycle is entirely possible here . RtR -- you may have an entertaining time assigning points for this contest -- lets hope a cycle doesn't actually occur.

To explain a little, a Condorcet cycle occurs in any game where the values of players moves are interdependent, but there is no external rule assigning move order. It could occur here in a situation where, 1) if B's no-bonus entry is used, then C's best scoring entry would be with the bonus, but 2) if B's bonus entry is used, then C's best option would be the no-bonus entry (add multiple players and the possible interactions become much more complex, of course). If this were the case, and if B's and C's entries were scored simultaneously, then there would be no stable way to assign values to them.


-- JWorth

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 07-08-2003 @ 00:41 AM).]

Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 07-08-03 01:28 AM EDT (US)     8 / 30       
JWorth,

Your theory about the Condorcet cycle is possible only if there are interdependecies in assigning the players' points. However, what RtR means is that if a player submits three entries, the best (meaning most points) will be considered as his final entry (isn't that so, Roger? ). This is independent of whether the no-bonus entry of B has less points than C's bonus entry but B's bonus entry is more than C's bonus (and hence non-bonus) entry.
Isn't that so?

But anyways, this idea of bonus points is an absolutely fantastic one!!!!. It has given me new impetus to participate in these MCs. Way to go Roger!!!

Timelord.

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-08-03 02:05 AM EDT (US)     9 / 30       
It's probably not very likely, but I'm pretty sure that a cycle is possible here, for the values attached to entries are interdependent, as the time for a faster (scored) entry will affect the rank order of all slower entries. So, it's possible that the "best" entry (most MC points) might depend upon the determination of which of another player's entries is considered "best", and vice versa. I'll see if I can write out a simple example set demonstrating a possible cycle, sometime in the next day or two (I haven't fully worked it out, yet).

I also think that bonus points are a good idea, particularly if they raise participation. I mention the cycle possibility just so that it doesn't suddenly come to pass as a huge surprise -- and any possible cycle could be avoided by an appropriate rule (probably best announced in advance).

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 07-08-2003 @ 02:12 AM).]

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 07-08-03 03:41 AM EDT (US)     10 / 30       

Quote:

if a player submits three entries, the best (meaning most points) will be considered as his final entry (isn't that so, Roger? ).


Yes.

Quote:

But anyways, this idea of bonus points is an absolutely fantastic one!!!!. It has given me new impetus to participate in these MCs. Way to go Roger!!!


This was JamieJME's idea, and I did take a bit of convincing - nice work, Jamie!

Actually we have an intriguing situation in the latest AoW2 Monthly Challenge , Creek of Aberil. Not only does Outlier have the fastest submission to date, but he also managed to obtain all the bonus points! So it will be intesresting to see how that one develops.


"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
Outlier
Member
posted 07-08-03 01:16 PM EDT (US)     11 / 30       
Hi Angel Roger, has this become a **spoiler** thread now?

As for JWorth's point about Condorcet cycle, I do believe it's possible with the current bonus point system as well ... Just a bit more work for Angel Roger that's all!

Outlier out ...

Sprout
Member
posted 07-08-03 01:36 PM EDT (US)     12 / 30       
Always a fan of game theory...so try this example:

Person A - 10 days
Person B - 15 days or 30 days with gate of creation
Person C - 20 days
Person D - 25 days or 100 days with gate of creation
Person E - 27 days
Person F - 40 days
Person G - 45 days
Person H - 50 days
Person I - 55 days
Person J - 60 days
Person K - 65 days

If D is using 25 day entry (4th place) then B's best response:

Person B could be second place (20 points) or 5th place (19 points)...prefers to be second place for 20 points.

If B is using 15 day entry (2nd place) then D's best response:

Person D could be 4th place (12 points) or 11+ place (13 points)...prefers to be 11+ place for 13 points.

However, if D is using 100 day entry then B's best response:

Person B could be second place (20 points) or 4th place (22 points)...prefers to be 4th place for 22 points.

BUT, if B is using 30 day entry, then D's best response:

Person D could be 3rd place (15 points) or 11+ place (13 points)...prefers to be 3rd place for 15 points.

Hence, with just 2 people - which entry to use will adjust the best response for the other person - hence no steady state equilibrium.

I am really looking forward to the end of the month to see what Roger does Good luck Rog!

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-08-03 04:45 PM EDT (US)     13 / 30       
Thanks, Sprout. That's exactly the sort of open-ended cycle I was imagining. Without an additional rule, there isn't a good solution to the problem, if it crops up, so I suggest adding one .
One possible way to resolve this that I think would work:
Among cycling entries, scoring will be optimized in the order of the entries with the best possible score. So, in Sprout's example, player B's 4th place (30 day) entry, with the gate of creation, would be entered for 22 points -- as the highest possible score in the cycle, it would receive priority -- and D would receive credit for the 11th place (100 day) entry for 13 points, as that's his/her best entry given B's (higher scoring) optimal result. This approach is probably fairest. The downside is that the computations will grow increasingly complicated for RtR as the nunber of people in any cycle gets larger (but nobody ever said that being an angel is easy , and this could well all be idle speculation anyway, though cycles will become likelier the greater the number of entrants.

I'm sure that there are other rules that could head this issue off at the pass -- I'm just tossing out one possibility here.

Or, we could use a rule that the allocation that results in the greatest possible distribution of MC points will be used, but the computations could get monsterously complicated ...

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 07-08-2003 @ 06:28 PM).]

Sprout
Member
posted 07-08-03 08:36 PM EDT (US)     14 / 30       
I think that we should just let Roger do whatever...then we can all complain that it is not fair afterwards
JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-09-03 04:17 AM EDT (US)     15 / 30       
Sounds good to me .
Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 07-09-03 04:19 AM EDT (US)     16 / 30       
Correct me if I am wrong folks,
but what I understood from the bonus system is this:

Lets take Sprout's example with the ten entries. According to Roger's post(which one I forgot - think it was the july MC thread), we have to mention whether we are claiming the bonus points or not and for which items too. In that case, only that entry will be taken for the MC or Summer Sizzler, isn't that so?.
So, here, D and B will have to mention whether they are claiming the bonus points or not. If they do then the ranking will change because the bonus entry used more days(ranking is based only on the number of days taken to complete). There will not be any confusion in awarding points because the players themselves have chosen to go the bonus points route. Right?

This was my understanding and if I have misread anything, please clarify.

Timelord.

[This message has been edited by Timelord (edited 07-09-2003 @ 04:20 AM).]

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-09-03 09:45 AM EDT (US)     17 / 30       
Hey Timelord,

The open-endedness is introduced by the fact that players won't have to choose in advance which entry they want scored (under the rules as they are right now) -- they can submit more than one and leave it up to RtR to apply the entry which will produce the most MC points:

Quote:

2) The submission that gives you the highest number of points is the one that will be taken into account.

-- RtR

They do have to announce whether they want the bonus points considered for a given submission, but, among multiple submissions, that won't help to determine "the submission that give you the highest number of points", which is the potential instability that we're talking about.

This is all likely to be academic anyway (given the size of this map, personally I'll be pleased if I get one submission entered ).

Your post makes me realize that the simplest way to avoid ambiguity from RtR's point of view would be to make players declare which of their multiple entries they want scored. Probably best to allow players to wait until the end of the contest period to do so, so any information gained by the exchanging of leads as the race develops could be put to (somewhat uncertain, but still much better than nothing) use. At the (modest) price of forcing us to make decisions based upon partial information, that would get rid of any computational mess for RtR.

-- JWorth

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 07-09-2003 @ 10:10 AM).]

Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 07-09-03 01:26 PM EDT (US)     18 / 30       
Got it JWorth....
Didn't realise that...when I read Roger's post that we have to claim for the bonuses, I naturally assumed that was the submission that would be taken. Fog's all cleared now :-)

Anyway, this is all academic as far as the Summer Sizzler goes coz it literally eats into my system (gets soooo slow after the first few turns)

Good luck to you JWorth!! Guess anyway that you will be in the top three along with Outlier and probably one of Dafyth or Janpet But I am going to give it my best shot given that there is a lot of time around.

Timelord

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 07-19-03 01:59 AM EDT (US)     19 / 30       
This map should be called "Dragon Alley"...

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 07-19-2003 @ 02:00 AM).]

Rajigar
Member
posted 07-26-03 10:19 AM EDT (US)     20 / 30       
Sorry, can someone tell how many pieces of armour are there? I didn't write it down when the message appeared.
Thanks!
RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 07-26-03 11:31 AM EDT (US)     21 / 30       
12

"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider
jamieJME
Member
posted 07-26-03 03:00 PM EDT (US)     22 / 30       
There is a sign in the bottom left corner in a ruined tower which gives you the prophecy etc

Experience the ultimate single player map for Shadow Magic here

Battles of Creation : The Blackened Mire

Get the legendary Battle Of Creation that began it all here...

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 08-31-03 03:32 PM EDT (US)     23 / 30       
Congratulations to JWorth, who managed 20 days for a staggering 35 points

Janpet managed 27 days, giving 20 points

Outlier managed 37 days with all gate pieces, giving a total of 25 points
I ignored 25 days without all gate pieces

Lord Lurifax managed 53 days, giving 12 points

Timelord managed 75 days with all gate pieces, giving a total of 19 points

One World managed 94 days with all gate pieces, giving a total of 18 points

IF ANYONE DISPUTES THEIR SCORE, PLEASE LET ME KNOW WITHIN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS!



"Shooting down a plane of civilians isn't careless, it's politcal opportunism." - Stormraider

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited 09-01-2003 @ 02:15 PM).]

Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 09-03-03 09:10 AM EDT (US)     24 / 30       
20 days??? JWorth, you are simply unbelievably good.
Agreed I DID tarry a bit to get the 12 pieces and was trying to keep the spawning units to a minimum.....but this is way too good.
Whenever you are in the mood, can you share your strategy?.
It will help us to learn a lot, I figure.
But keeping the lessons in mind while playing is the tough thing as you get carried away by the fun you are having while playing.
jamieJME
Member
posted 09-03-03 01:07 PM EDT (US)     25 / 30       
WELL DONE all. Very impressive indeed. (now you can try the harder normal version )


JWorth, as well as telling us how you did it, could you please send me all the save games that you made. I would love to actually see how you did it!


Experience the ultimate single player map for Shadow Magic here

Battles of Creation : The Blackened Mire

Get the legendary Battle Of Creation that began it all here...

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 09-03-03 06:06 PM EDT (US)     26 / 30       
Thanks. This was a fun map -- congrats again, JamieME, on a really nice piece of work. In broad outlines, my approach depending upon seduction (with the readily available artifact just on the dwarven side of the river -- I seem to remember sending you a note about that, way back in version 1 of this map, JamieME -- I was pleased to find it still there) and teleporting, using the central teleportation gate and a rushed wizard tower in the NE on the turn before the final assault. In a little more detail...shoot, I'm working from a cobbled-together connection here, and it won't accept the cut-and-paste from an e-mail I sent Outlier a while back, before he departed for places unknown. So, basically, rushed abominations were my first builds, followed by a pioneer that carved a road for the gluttons. Abominations and seducing hero took out/recruited everything that moved. Gluttons, abominations, and seduced flyers took down the central (teleporting) city, with the help of several catalysts. My hero took out the town near the elven capital solo, with the help of a couple of more catalysts. Everything slow was used up taking draconian cities, which sold everything portable to raise cash for rushed red dragons and a rushed, advanced wizard tower. Then stormed the elven capital, using the lightning artifact, and finished with summoned efreet (which ignored the underground webs) and the last of the catalysts (along with the underground ones).

JamieME -- sure, I'd be happy to send along savegames -- I think I should have one (or more) for just about every turn. Do you want them all, or just every five turns (or something). How big a zipfile can you accept as an attachment? It'll have to wait until the weekend, though, when my highspeed connection should be back up.

-- JWorth

[This message has been edited by JWorth (edited 09-03-2003 @ 06:08 PM).]

Timelord
HG Cherub
posted 09-04-03 01:52 AM EDT (US)     27 / 30       
JWorth, great stuff...
btw, this seducing artifact...was it in the rainbow's end on the other side of the river?. And here I was thinking that the life-stealing sword was the best thing I could get in the initial stages.

If you don't mind, can you also send me the savegames?. If you would, I can give you an alternate email id (my office id) which can take attachments upto 4MB.
Thanks

jamieJME
Member
posted 09-04-03 12:50 PM EDT (US)     28 / 30       
Well seeing as a few people may want to see the save game, you could send it to me and then I could host it on the Wizard of Creation site for a few days.

Well, seeing as it is only took 20 days, lets go for savegames every 5 days, starting from turn 2. (and the final one obviously )

If it is my wizardofcreation email then upto 1.5 mb im afraid but if it is the other one, then as much as it takes


Experience the ultimate single player map for Shadow Magic here

Battles of Creation : The Blackened Mire

Get the legendary Battle Of Creation that began it all here...

jamieJME
Member
posted 09-04-03 12:53 PM EDT (US)     29 / 30       
BTW, would the people who played it mind submiting a comment or review in the review section of the proper map please?

here


Experience the ultimate single player map for Shadow Magic here

Battles of Creation : The Blackened Mire

Get the legendary Battle Of Creation that began it all here...

JWorth
Pharaolympics 2000 Competitor
posted 09-08-03 11:47 PM EDT (US)     30 / 30       
Hey all,
Posting the .sav games at Wizards of Creation sounds easiest to me. Unfortunately, Jamie, I don't think I have either of your e-mail addresses, and I don't see them posted on the boards (just started a new job, so I haven't spent a lot of time looking -- my apologies if I missed something obvious). Could you post your unlimited-attachment address, or mail it to me at
jay at immaterial dot net ?

Thanks,
JWorth

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