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Age of Wonders 2 Heaven » Forums » AoW1 General Discussion & Strategies » Vision and Concealment
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Topic Subject:Vision and Concealment
hesiden
Member
posted 12-01-02 06:38 PM EDT (US)         
Normal vision range is 4? +2 for each level of vision skill?

Underground vision range is 1 (4 if you have night vision) and +2 for each level of vision skill?


In a recent e-mail game (Wot12M 8th public) I lost quite a few units because I didn't get them concealed properly. I could tell they were not concealed because the numeric tag on the unit was not faded. Unfortuantly I'd already used up my movement points. Is there a way to tell before you move if vegitation is dense enough to conceal a unit?

What does smoke do to vision? On the Wot12M map there are several smoke clouds and the undead central island is completely obscured. When I played the publicly avalible map I had a hard time even finding the entrace cavern next to the undead city and I was playing the undead.

AuthorReplies:
Walky
Member
posted 12-02-02 02:07 AM EDT (US)     1 / 26       
If I remember correctly:

Surface: normal range is 3
Caverens: normal range is 2
Depths: normal range is 1

Vision: 1 Hex improvement per Level
True Seeing: Ability to see invisible and concealed Units (without you'll see them only if standing next to you)
Night Vision: Improvement of Vision underground and in Dungeons (Don't know how much.... 2 or 3 if I remember correctly)

Walky

unicorn77
Member
posted 12-02-02 03:27 AM EDT (US)     2 / 26       
I'm not aware of any way to tell whether you are going to end up concealed - I wish I were!! This question is subsidiary to a recent thread on working out the movement situation generally, in which I posted about how problematical it all is.

I don't think you can know without actually landing on a hex. Even if you manage to work out the terrain on your target hex, you can still have problems. Like, if it's next to an enemy held structure they can see you anyway.

Concealment is a real double-edge sword, never to be relied upon. All sorts of ways your opponent can tell your there - e.g. if your concealed hero is giving out leadership all other units in his stack will broadcast this fact to the world.

Edit: that's "stack" not "stake"

[This message has been edited by unicorn77 (edited 12-02-2002 @ 03:30 AM).]

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 12-02-02 02:09 PM EDT (US)     3 / 26       
There are some ways of learning which terrain can potentially give concealment, and which will never give concealment:

1. Open the editor, open a map, click on Tiles, click on Grass

2. Click on one of the yew trees (for example), and put one onto the map
3. As you put it onto the map, a box at the bottom changes from saying Grass/Transparent to saying Grass/Vegetation - so a yew tree will NEVER give you concealment!

4. Click on either of the tree pictures to the left of the yew tree pictures
5. As you put it onto the map, a box at the bottom changes from saying Grass/Transparent to saying Grass/Dense Vegetation - so these trees CAN give you concealment!

6. Above the double yew tree picture is a picture of two small trees. As you put this on the map it says Grass/Light Vegetation - so these two small trees will NEVER give you concealment!

7. Click on Objects. As you put Holy Ground, Unholy Ground or Poison Plants onto the map it says Grass/Dense Vegetation - so they CAN give you concealment!

No concealment: Vegetation, Light Vegetation

Concealment possible: Dense Vegetation

However, as mentioned previously:

A. If you stop on a hex adjacent to a property, or places such as a mine or a tower, you may well be visible

B. If a unit belonging to my ally stops next to your *concealed* unit, I will be able to see you

C. Unit's with True Seeing may well be able to see you, I am not sure what range True Seeing gives though, sorry

D. Even if your hero is invisible, if it has the Leadership ability then other units in the stack will advertise the fact that they are endowed with Leadership, a sure sign that a hero/leader is present!

Please also note that Vegetation, Light Vegetation and Dense Vegetation affect movement points. For most unhasted units, Vegetation and Light Vegetation will be 4mp, while dense vegetation will be 6mp

hesiden
Member
posted 12-02-02 03:10 PM EDT (US)     4 / 26       
Thanks Roger.

What about the specfic concealments such water, underground, desert, etc. Those don't have to have dense vegitation to give concealment correct?


Anyone have know about the vision ranges? Also the vision range around structures and cities?

Nojd
Member
posted 12-02-02 04:15 PM EDT (US)     5 / 26       
There are no vegetation requirements for those specific concealments you mentioned.

I once started on such a table over the vision ranges (I took notes during my PBEM games), but I noticed I had too many errors in it so I tossed it away. I'll restart, but I'm sure someone else will beat me to it! That's a challenge!

RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 12-02-02 04:37 PM EDT (US)     6 / 26       
Yes, I was talking about the Concealment ability that units such as the Orc Assassin, Halfling Rogue and Dark Elf Shadow are endowed with, and which you can research as an Earth spell

You could potentially have a situation where a hero has grass concealment, for example, and might be invisible standing in vegetation or light vegetation!

My understanding is that you only usually see concealed units on a hex immediately adjacent to a city, mine, tower fort etc

Beren V
Member
posted 12-02-02 07:45 PM EDT (US)     7 / 26       
*Joseph sends a horde of mid-level units at the Keepers*

*Elric casts Divine Storm from inside the bushes. THe Humans wondered where that came from.*

*Julia casts Divine Storm from inside the bushes. The Human army drops*

One of my favorite uses for concealment.


-Heir to Beleriand, Heir to the Silmaril, Chosen of Illuvatar-

GM of the Glory of the Past Middle Earth Roleplay Thread

Creator of the New Keepers Campaign
RogerRabid
Member
(id: Roger the Rampant)
posted 12-03-02 07:32 AM EDT (US)     8 / 26       
Did Joseph have his Technicolor dreamcoat with him though?
Nojd
Member
posted 12-16-02 10:08 AM EDT (US)     9 / 26       
  • Caverns and depths have the same effect on the vision range, i.e. the range is halved compared to the range on the surface.
  • Units with Night Vision don't have their vision range reduced in the caverns or depths.
  • All buildings (including cities) have the same vision range, with two exceptions: Tower and Reflecting Pool.

    Here's a table with the vision ranges on the surface.

    Viewer: Range
    Unit: 4
    Unit with Vision I: 6
    Unit with Vision II: 8
    Unit with Vision III: 10
    Unit with Vision IV: 12
    Building: 6
    Reflecting Pool: 8
    Tower: 12

  • Golden_Karagh
    Member
    posted 12-29-02 04:40 PM EDT (US)     10 / 26       
    Vision in castle ruins, and supposedly monster lairs, etc. is the same as underground(halved without night vision, unaltered with.) Just something I thought ought to be mentioned...
    vintermus
    Member
    posted 01-08-03 04:13 PM EDT (US)     11 / 26       
    Nice info in this thread. I actually like that you have to try the bushes out before you know how well you are hidden. It's more real that way. If an area is really full of vegetation it is easy to hide, but if you try to hide behind a few bushes you are taking a chance .
    hesiden
    Member
    posted 01-08-03 04:38 PM EDT (US)     12 / 26       
    With a little practice its easy to tell the difference between light vegitation and dense vegitation.

    Depends on the map of course, but I think the land surface of most maps grass. So grass concealment for heros is pretty nice in a mulit-player games. Underground (dirt) concealment would cover most other situations.

    Awkward Syntax
    Member
    (id: ArthurKing02)
    posted 01-08-03 07:40 PM EDT (US)     13 / 26       
    Night Vision will grant normal sight range while underground, additional levels of visions only tend to work above ground and in dungeons (to my experience)

    My signature is in another forum
    Walky
    Member
    posted 01-10-03 06:39 AM EDT (US)     14 / 26       

    Quote:

    additional levels of visions only tend to work above ground and in dungeons (to my experience)

    nope... Works also underground just to a lesser degree (as stated above: ranges are halved...)
    Natalinasmpf
    Banned
    posted 01-11-03 03:12 AM EDT (US)     15 / 26       
    About light vegetation....you could hide in it and the enemy sees you, but suddenly it grows the next turn (forests do expand, and thus light vegetation grows into dense) and the enemy forgets where you are.....
    Nojd
    Member
    posted 01-11-03 06:24 AM EDT (US)     16 / 26       
    Thank you, Natalinasmpf! I thought I had gone competely senile! I'll start a new thread about growing forests.

    Edit: Here's the thread: Growing Forests

    [This message has been edited by Nojd (edited 01-11-2003 @ 06:30 AM).]

    LordDragatus
    Member
    posted 01-18-03 09:21 AM EDT (US)     17 / 26       
    Recently I was looking at a map and started counting trees on a hex. By itself that proboably would have been kind of weird, so I also checked what kind of vegetation it was. My conclusion is that 5+ trees per hex is dense vegetation. Of course you need to count them carefully ...

    Maybe someone would care to correct me if I'm wrong?


    Lord Dragatus, 30th member of BTOOIC, The One Who Killed the Cow.
    Natalinasmpf
    Banned
    posted 01-19-03 03:24 AM EDT (US)     18 / 26       
    Hey do evil/holy woods count as dense vegetation?
    RogerRabid
    Member
    (id: Roger the Rampant)
    posted 01-19-03 06:33 AM EDT (US)     19 / 26       
    yes
    Natalinasmpf
    Banned
    posted 01-19-03 06:40 AM EDT (US)     20 / 26       
    Sometimes I wish there was an evil/holy woods altar...
    Rodzilla
    Member
    posted 08-06-14 07:47 PM EDT (US)     21 / 26       
    Hmm..I just noticed in the editor that there is a secret spell called "conceal area" but even if I learn it, it doesn't show up as a spell I can cast.
    Mac_Biodiesel
    Member
    posted 08-07-14 11:45 AM EDT (US)     22 / 26       
    How is that different from "Cloud of Ashes", level 3 fire spell?
    Ramillies
    Member
    posted 09-06-14 12:01 PM EDT (US)     23 / 26       
    Cloud of ashes (level 2 fire spell, by the way ) -- you specify a hex on global map and every hex within range of 3 from this center is obfuscated with ashes. Everyone who is near enough to the cloud may see it and terrain and structures are not hidden, but the units within are invisible with only two exceptions. A stack in a cloud of ashes may be seen 1) by its owner; 2) by any player who has a stack on an adjacent hex.

    Conceal Area (level 1 secret spell) -- something like Bird's View (air/1), but reversed. Unexplores everything within range of 12 hexes from the spellcaster for all other players -- that means that even if they had explored it before, now it is blacked out (they cannot see anything -- it is not only fog of war) and they must explore it again. The effect is akin to "Trail of Oblivion" (or how is this ridiculously expensive and mainly useless skill called) in "blacking out" the hexes.

    By the way: the Conceal Area spell is probably bugged somehow. I like testing effects of spells by loading some map and using all-spell cheat. Even then this spell doesn't usually show up.

    [This message has been edited by Ramillies (edited 09-06-2014 @ 12:03 PM).]

    Mac_Biodiesel
    Member
    posted 09-08-14 02:22 PM EDT (US)     24 / 26       
    Wow, I've never heard of that spell, but it sounds annoying. And it's Trail of Darkness, by the way.
    Ramillies
    Member
    posted 09-08-14 07:11 PM EDT (US)     25 / 26       
    Of course. I was pretty sure this wasn't the right name for it (But how am I supposed to remember it? I have hacked up my own translation to Czech (though the game believes it is in Spanish) and that's maybe two years ago )

    By the way, it is possible to place smoke directly on the map. The smoke then looks and behaves exactly like the "cloud of ashes" + can be (I believe) set up to drift, grow or shrink over time. (I'm no mapmaker and I have no advanced knowledge on maps. I only have seen it recently on some map I was playing.)

    [This message has been edited by Ramillies (edited 09-08-2014 @ 07:14 PM).]

    Mac_Biodiesel
    Member
    posted 09-09-14 10:51 AM EDT (US)     26 / 26       
    Yep, I've definitely used it in map editing. The only settings I see is you can make it drift or be stationary. Nothing for making it grow or shrink, unless that's a hack or custom add-on.
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